"Dear Editor: You are dead to me." Topic

"I'm afraid that a lot of the back-and-forth above misses the point. This isn't about free speech; it is about courtesy versus harassment."

and,

"I'm with the McBrides on this one. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you," is the appropriate standard, to which "free speech" is no defense. What one can do is never morally or ethically superior to what one should or should not do.

* * *

"As I have stated elsewhere, I believe this situation should be resolved immediately by mutual apologies all around, with the thing cast into the past. This is not a time for trumped up pride or self-justification. It has already gone far beyond the level of reasonable reaction. Let's dial it down and get back to being friends."

Very well said. I generally support Bill's rules and his enforcement of them, and believe he deserves the benefit of the doubt most of the time. In this case, however, I must, respectfully, disagree. I'm with the McBrides and Parzival on this one.

And a thought of my own. Courtesy and manners in this case, to my mind anyway, are a bit like free speech-it's easy to support free speech you agree with, and it's easy to act with courtesy and good manners toward those you like and who treat you with courtesy; it's harder to defend speech you don't agree with or to be courteous toward those who aren't always courteous to others. John can be a bit of a PITA at times, and he doesn't always treat others with the courtesy and respect he should. But by and large John seems to be a decent and helpful fellow, and while we shouldn't overlook his failings, he shouldn't be the target of bullying either.

Dennis

I agree with David McBride fully

I also think that Allen's original statement was correct. This sort of bullying would not be tolerated in any decent school.

TMP FAQ, Rules of Conduct say that to be here you must "act like an adult".

Bill's house, Bill's rules, but they should be applied or not at all.

Doug defending pedophilia… Freedom of speech.
People harassing OFM… Freedom of speech.

OFM complaining about being harassed… Bill's House Bill's Rules.
Bangorstu writing about TMP elsewhere on the web… Bill's House Bill's Rules.

Seriously. I was thinking of those exact points.

"And even if you opted not to censor the posting of OFM threads in the Poll Suggestion board, there was never any obligation on your part to turn all or any such threads into actual polls; that was your action, not the free speech action of someone else."

That is a very good point. Unless every poll suggestion is getting turned into a poll, and I don't know if they are, than Mr. Editor has singled out Mr. OFM.

G

As others have pointed out, "What's the matter, can't take a joke?" is a lame excuse that many verbally abusive bullies use.

When even the members who suggested these polls half a year ago regret having done so, that should tell you something, Bill.

I notice the OFM is no longer in the Doghouse?

I notice the OFM is no longer in the Doghouse?

His account's been locked. Do try to keep up.

I've got to say, I'm in the McBride camp as well. TMP will have lost a great resource and a good deal of color if the OFM is forbidden.

Even if the Editor rescinds, do you think OFM will return?

I too agree with the McBrides.

Even if the Editor rescinds, do you think OFM will return?

Yes. Don't let all the threads and their discussions cloud the core theme…John the OFM's craving for attention. Yes, I know I'm a minority opinion here.

Doug defending pedophilia… Freedom of speech.

Well, I'll be swizzled. If you extend that word to define sexually mature girls of marriagable age, then I guess you're right. If not, then shut the **** up….

"Don't let all the threads and their discussions cloud the core theme…John the OFM's craving for attention"

Read the posts-you're way off base.

I don't care if you didn't like him, didn't appreciate his humor, didn't glean some useful information from his posts (and there was plenty) nobody deserves treatment like that.

There was no reason to post the final OFM poll. It was held over from March, and long after the fuel was on the fire the decision was made to post it. Why?

The first amendment does not protect all speech. That's why 47 states have anti-harassment/bullying laws on the books. The law recently passed in Washington State covers social networking sites like TMP. An open skies approach to freedom of speech is simply the mis-application of a principle to cover Bill's tookus. The editor has banned numerous people for their violation of rules and policies that fly in the face of unlimited speech.

Bill, you're wrong. There was no reason to post the poll, and hence no reason to lock out the OFM.

It was very hard to say this because I like TMP, I appreciate the community, I like what it has done for a very small hobby. But posting the poll, and banning someone for being predictably angry (Really? You didn't see this coming when the poll went up?) is unfair.

Too bad for you, Doug, many of us were here to remember.

"Look, any male on this board, who claims that he would never find a 14 year-old, fully-developed young woman sexy, is a completely unconvincing liar. I could envision myself stuck with one, yea verily yea, even at my age. But then, gents and ladies, I have a filthy mind and over-active imagination."

Good thing we didn't have the poll suggestions board back then…

How about running a poll: should the editor apologize to John the OFM for permitting repetitive bullying?

In actuality, I couldn't give a … this a game and toy soldier forum. Why all the fuss?

And, Ksmyth has got it exactly right. There was no reason for the poll; and, this mess was entirely predictable.

Well said Parzival.

There seems little difference between "don't run polls about me" and "don't talk about me on the forums" – both are attempts to restrict the free speech of others.

But locking the accounts of people who don't agree with you isn't an attempt to restrict THEIR free speech? I am in agreement with the McBrides on this one.

Again, this whole mess is

UNGOOD!

Even if the Editor rescinds, do you think OFM will return?

Yes. Don't let all the threads and their discussions cloud the core theme…John the OFM's craving for attention. Yes, I know I'm a minority opinion here.

No mate your not on your own, I'm on the same frequency!

Classic attention seeking behaviour from John for a while now – poking others, setting himself up as a victim, flouncing out, announcing he's reformed his ways, and then an ad hominen attack on the Editor – its all classic stuff.

Not his fault really, I blame the parents…Now he's been locked out he may find other channels for his creative drive…

The Editor does a great deal of work on this site which is much appreciated. The OFM and aecurtis *et al* are valued contributors who add much to the board. (I personally think of the helpful answers they often provide to newbies and old hands alike.)

I'm concerened that this spat will damage a great resource.

With this in mind, Parzival and others have written a great deal of sense. The object of us getting togeher "through the ether" is to share the joy of shared interests with like-minded individuals.

I've found that wargamers are generally affable, polite people with a sharp sense of humour. If a joke "runs too long" at a club, or in a group of wargaming friends, there is a general awareness that develops that things should stop…. Manners kick in and the desire to retain a good friend rules the field.

I'm rather sad that in the rush to pick sides some members should interpret the right to free speech as "because I CAN say it I WILL say it! D**** the consequences!" In the end, free speech carries the duty of propriety (even amongst friends!)A joke has devolved into silliness, caused offence and now become an opportunity for agent provocateurs to rattle some cages.

My earnest hope is that The Editor, OFM and all the main players involved will resolve the issue like gentlemen and in confidence. I have no bias against any of them. I'm simply fed up with the childish desire of a few to stir trouble. My advice would be to lock down the facility for all and sundry to run polls or to restrict polls to hobby issues until this brouhaha has faded.

The danger gentlemen, is that if this is allowed to bubble on, more will get offended, some will get disappointed and a large number will cease to visit the boards. We would ALL be the poorer for that.

What do you want? The chance to score a point off someone to no REAL purpose or the harmony of a fine resource which continues to grow?

I know that my vote is for the latter.

Too bad for you, Doug, many of us were here to remember.

"Look, any male on this board, who claims that he would never find a 14 year-old, fully-developed young woman sexy, is a completely unconvincing liar. I could envision myself stuck with one, yea verily yea, even at my age. But then, gents and ladies, I have a filthy mind and over-active imagination."

Caesar, that's the most inciminating thing you saved? Context, my friend, context. I remember the context; I was surrounded by irrational posters and responding to multiple misconceptions.

What in this snippet says "pedophile" to you? Oh, the fact that 14 year-olds are often WOMEN in appearance, so any imagined relationship would count? What if I lived in a place that not only legally allowed 14 year-olds to marry, but actively encouraged them to marry? Does that change everything?

If you recall, and I doubt that you do, there was a lot of historical and cultural CONTEXT being appealed to by me, in order to define "pedophile", since too many (including you) throw that word around until it is practically meaningless.

As for the tone of my "snippet" (which you saved, which I find weird), I was responding in kind to a rising irrational tone; which was stupid of me. As is responding now most likely stupid of me and an utter waste of time. But Bill had to know that this was going to happen, again, sooner or later.

Oh, and btw, the outcome in TX was exactly as I said it would be, and what I wanted to happen; may the good State of TX go after the other ones who have broken the law and put them in with Jeffs.

Current Affairs? Yes indeed. But it ain't religion or politics, is it?…

Ya know, it's this kind of stupid crap that makes the TABLETOP GAMING NEWS and LEAD ADVENTURE FORUM look better and better every day.

OK this isn't funny anymore.

What a profoundly stupid observation.

Sorry guys I have to fall into the editors ball park on this one. I have not read every thread about the subject. BUT it always comes down to. "Bill's house Bill's rules"

I have visited the DH more than once, some I deserved, others? well I took it up with him won some lost others. But I still understand that even on the net I am at his house, and it is his rules. Where does Emily Post fail?

VR
James Mattes

OK this isn't funny anymore.

Jesus, Sparker, YA THINK?

Now we have Caesar dredging up the pedophile from the old Current Affairs board, and Doug "defending" his repugnant views yet again.

For Christ's sake, Bill, this is AT LEAST as bad as the CA cluster. I suggest that you DH some of these people, delete these offensive threads, slap a 6-month or 1-year moratorium on polls and poll discussions (or just kill them altogether), and stop hiding behind "Free Speech" and "Bill's House Bill's Rules" or A LOT more people are going to leave TMP.

I'm with Doc mcb. This should not have been a poll. Most of them are pointless and this one was distasteful.

Holy moly! I think a bunch of us here need to take a couple of steps back. This is not the end of the world. Nobody died.

Boycotting and badmouting don't solve a thing. State your opinion and leave it at that. The more civily you do it, the more weight it will carry. I don't know who is to fault here, but the tenor of this thread is an indication to me that hitting the "Reset" button is probably a good idea.

The notion of freedom of speech in this setting is only a guideline. When you consider that the nine justices of the United States Supreme Court can never agree entirely on what qualifies as freedom of speech and what doesn't, it is foolish to expect Bill to be in a position to do any better.

In the end, Bill has to continually monitor the temperament of the forums and make the decisions that he believes will keep this place as civil as he can for the greatest number of visitors. I wouldn't have the patience for it.

So for now, considering that nobody actually died, I'm gonna cut Bill some slack. I think he's juggling a lot of balls and more than a few rather polarizing personalities. Perhaps, after things calm down a bit, we'll see John and Alan back again.

Even if the Editor rescinds, do you think OFM will return?

Seriously? He will be back like a crack looking for her next fix.

About a month ago OFM threatened to punish all of us by only posting things to sell in the Marketplace.

That lasted 18 minutes before he posted outside the Marketplace.

Don't let all the threads and their discussions cloud the core theme…John the OFM's craving for attention. Yes, I know I'm a minority opinion here.

You are hardly in the minority. Over the last few months more and more people have expressed to OFM that his act is getting old. He just kept pushing and now he gets what he earned.

My call is his next play will be the martyr card when he comes back.

Even if the Editor rescinds, do you think OFM will return?

Of course he would. A leopard can't change his spots.

Now we have Caesar dredging up the pedophile Bleeped text from the old Current Affairs board, and Doug "defending" his repugnant views yet again.

Yes, I brought it up because it is the perfect example of the inconsistent policy that is used here. I'm sorry that it also started that 50 something year old man going on about how little girls 12 to 14 get him excited.
I don't want to argue over that.
But that was left to fester and spill over into the lives of everyone here who just come for a bit of social interaction related to their hobbies. Social interaction with online 'friends' which includes off topic remarks, nonsense, even some teasing -- just like your 'real' gaming group.

So my post stands:
Doug was allowed to make us all sick and look bad and it was 'freedom of speech', yet others have been DH'd or banned for significantly less.
OFM is rightfully upset for the treatment he got here, expressed it and got banned. The bullies write whatever they want and get 'freedom of speech'.

OK this isn't funny anymore.

Thanks for catching up to the point the rest of us were at long ago. You share quite the burden of blame.

Darthfozzywig's 'Let's see how many Polls naming Bill I can start before he Locks my account and deletes all the polls' things has had the inevitable result – Bill has deleted the polls he started and locked his account.

Locking accounts is a better approach than Dawghousing – Dawghousing is public and stirs up controversy – like a trial. Account Locking is quiet, secret, only the neighbours notice the van pulling up outside the offender's home at 5 am.

TMP – the Guatamala of the Wargaming World.

Pat

I have begun painting my Japanese army that has been sitting on the bench for a couple of years now. I was wondering if anyone can tell me the best match for the uniforms with Vallejo paints? I intend on doing the '41/2 Malaysia and Fall of Singapore camapign if that helps!

What's that expression? Give Doug a shovel and…….

But it's OK, this is a family values channel.

Do we really have to drag all that crap up again?

OK this isn't funny anymore

Isn't is a shame the 'Greatest Understatement' poll has finished?

If there was ever anyone I hoped would be one of the names on the Ejército Secreto Anticomunista's list it was Sparker. Well, the wheels of Injustice grind slow, give it time, give it time.

Well done for dragging that 'Doug v TMP' filth up again everyone. Everyone on TMP really benefits from the world being reminded of that lovely time. Caesar, I know it rankles, but did you have to?

Pat

All I've really learned from this thread is that I'm going to keep my daughters under 24/7 surveillance until they are 25. At 14 they each get purse sized assault weapons, grenades, and a Ka-Bar to de-man potential oooglers.

(edit)…and no boyfriends from New Hampshire.

Do OFM and Allen get a prorated refund for their financial support of this site since they are now banned?

If they deserve it, they can ask for it. I don't know offhand if their Supporting Memberships were paid for or gifts. (I know the OFM received a lot of membership credit for the polls he proposed.)

Vargulver, I'm no expert on the period but I'd say Brown Ochre is a good match. You might find this link useful:

paint4models.com

It's a conversion guide between various brand of paint.

What rules are you planning to use with your 41/42 Japanese and the Malayan Campaign?

What rules are you planning to use with your 41/42 Japanese?

Thanks for that Ninjasaurus, I've checked out that link, it's great.

nsolomon99 I'll be using Rapid Fire! possibly with a bit of tweaking, we'll ee how they play out. It'll be a lot of British rear guard actions, I guess…

Bill, you're wrong. There was no reason to post the poll, and hence no reason to lock out the OFM.

It was very hard to say this because I like TMP, I appreciate the community, I like what it has done for a very small hobby. But posting the poll, and banning someone for being predictably angry (Really? You didn't see this coming when the poll went up?) is unfair.

I couldn't have put it any better myself and am in full agreement with KSmyth and the others who have made the same point. Allowing what is clearly harassment by a minority with an axe to grind cannot be seriously defended as protecting free speech. Yes, it is the Editor's business and he can ban who he likes. But that does not justify provoking a fight in order to create a casus belli and then acting like the wounded party. The OFM's clearly stated wish not to be the subject of further polls was reasonable and should have been respected.

Out of interest, can one of the OFM's detractors point me to some examples of the obnoxious behaviour he has been accused of? Maybe I spend my time on the wrong boards, but I can't recollect seeing one.

I'm sorry that it also started that 50 something year old man going on about how little girls 12 to 14 get him excited.

Oh, I see, now you've lowered it to 12 year-old "little" girls. And the day I stop noticing when a little girl has suddenly become a woman is when I'm dead. YMMV, but I doubt it unless you're a eunuch.

I don't want to argue over that.

Then stop bringing IT up! Some people just don't know when to leave well enough alone. But I knew that three years ago, and nothing has changed. You bring it up again, and I will point out your fallacious memory and pov, again….

He isn't going to bring it up no more Doug – his account is locked.

Pat

Exactly what did Caesar do to get his account locked?

Whew…that was close. I almost allowed myself to comment on this issue!

Bangor, he brought up the Doug thing again.

Pat