"Perry European Mercenaries with Swiss Heads" Topic

I am putting together some forces for the Italian Wars and wondered how suitable the Perry medieval mercenaries with the swiss heads would be for the period until about 1530?

Early 16th century is one of those times when military fashion in Central Europe changes rapidly, with the emergence of the puff-and-slash style.

So while those figures might look decent for 1500, byt 1520's they would probably start looking rather old-fashioned.

Not suited. Sorry. Even for the Swabian war of 1499 these already look outfashioned, and I would not field them for the Italian wars as Swiss in any of the later campaigns. Some of them, however, might do well for Aventuriers up to Marignano.

Don't think anyone will kick them off the game table because they don't have enough puffery and slashes.

Safe up to around 1490s … but certainly not as late as 1530s. Here's a depiction of the Swiss at Fornovo in 1495:

Perhaps a bit more "puffery" than the Perry European Mercenaries-with some slashing, but they could still work.

Try painting fantastic looking plumes--it'll distract the knit-pickers enough so that they may not notice the lack of puffiness!

I am using the Perry mercs in my Italian wars armies for 1490-1510 alongside Landsknecht. My are mainly used as Italian pikes and Adventurier French pikes….i also use the crossbows and handgunners…it all looks fine to me!

French adventuriers, not a bad idea at all !

Here are some French (entering Naples in 95):

The Perries are probably better suited to French & Italians then to Swiss (unless you go back to around 1470).

I believe the foot are actually supposed to be Swiss. The heavy amount of plumage gives them away. Note the close similarity with the Swiss foot depicted in the Fornovo picture I posted above.

I just checked Hale's Artists and Warfare in the Renaissance. The above illustration posted by Puster depicts the French army with their Swiss contingents (pages 76-77).

Yep, they indeed look very similar to the illustration of Fornovo. The abundant illustrations on the Swabian wars of 1499 already show a distinctively more developed fashion for the Swiss.

The question is wether Perry mercenaries do look like these mercenaries. Imho you can use some of the bodies, if not all, and cover up old style armour by paint. They will not carry over well into the new century (15++), however.

I plan to do it like FieldMarshal and build several differently armed bands of aventuriers out of these – which should work up to Marignano. Sadly images on these units are even scarcer then French archers or ordonannce archers, the other two sources of French infantry (not to mention legions who were not raised until the 30ies).

"Fashions" hung in well past that often depicted in art. Sallets were in use well in to the 1500s, for example. One did not discard armor simply because it was "passé." That's a modern phenomena. Clothing styles, however, would probably be more prone to faster change obviously because it simply wears out and replacement isnot as costly as say armor. While throwing out grandpa's sallet, because it was too old fashioned looking and the boys in the fahnlein might snicker, would be unheard of, slashing ones leggings or hose, etc. mIght be done sooner simply because it was simple.

By the way, Swiss were very influenced by Italian "fashions" as well. Puffy sleeves often seen in 15th century Italy starts showing up in trans-alpine fashions a couple of decades later, for instance.

Soooooo, I'd say you're fairly safe using the Perry's for units up to about 1490-ish. I wouldn't kick them off the game table for being a little old fashioned. Besides almost all of what everyone is saying here including me, is really "wargamer expertise" meaning take the advice with a grain of salt and do what you think looks right.