Frederick  | 21 Aug 2011 2:08 p.m. PST |
One of my nieces is a huge Predator fan and I was painting up some of Copplestone's Hunter Aliens for her last week – to get inspiration, I looked through the Predator films then some of the Alien films – then something made me think (and – man – that will give you a headache!) The Self Destruct sequence is a favoured device for a lot of sci-fi movies and shows, from Star Trek to Alien – but if you were building a space ship (and presumably spending bags of money/credits/tokens on it) why would you build in a self destruct device? Okay, maybe for a survey or scout ship – don't want any aliens to get your tech – but in the movie Alien, Ripley activates Nostromo's self destruct device Nostromo is a towing ship – an M class starship modified by Weyland Yutani to tow things like automated oil and ore refineries So why would you build in a self destruct device? That would be like having a self destruct in a tug boat! It seems to me the potential for inadvertent bad things (like accidental discharge) way outweighs any useful application for a commercial vessel Maybe I am just thick about this, but what do my fellow TMPers think? |
| Plynkes | 21 Aug 2011 2:13 p.m. PST |
Because the plot demands it! No other reason. I'm guessing the Hubble Space Telescope and the International Space Station don't have self-destruct mechanisms. |
| RTJEBADIA | 21 Aug 2011 2:32 p.m. PST |
Often the 'self destruct button' is actually things like the crew intentionally knocking the ship into an orbit where it hits the sun (and can't change course), or abusing the engines to make an explosion, or something else. All of those sort of things are totally reasonable. Actual self destruct buttons, I can only think of a few cases where its useful, so probably no. |
| Balin Shortstuff | 21 Aug 2011 2:40 p.m. PST |
Better to blow the ship up than to have it crash into a populated planet? |
| haywire | 21 Aug 2011 2:43 p.m. PST |
The Nostromo is a tug pulling an industrial city behind it. "…hauling a refinery and twenty million tons of mineral ore" It did not say what type of ore, but imagine the damage all that mass could do when you have all that material the size of a small city heading straight towards a habitable planet that you cannot move out of the way in time… blow it up! |
| Frederick | 21 Aug 2011 2:57 p.m. PST |
Ah – now I had not thought about that! So you would need a substantial self-destruct device – otherwise you just convert the ship and cargo to a meteor storm |
| Zagloba | 21 Aug 2011 2:58 p.m. PST |
Rockets have a self-destruct so they don't accidentally plow into populated areas, so such a device could be a remnant from launch. Unlikely for something like the Nostromo of course, which was presumably built in space. That may still require some sort of mechanism for launch though- the first time in un-docks it could presumably still go out-of-control. Satellites are either boosted into a higher orbit, or brought into a controlled decay, but that is just using their normal propulsion systems, not a special self-destruct. There is also anti-tamper. If there are marines you have to assume there is someone who you don't want taking control of the ship. Put the button in the escape pod, but that's probably just to soothe the nerves of the crew while the AI initiates the real sequence a little earlier… Rich |
| Go0gle | 21 Aug 2011 4:12 p.m. PST |
In times of war, scuttling the ship so the tech and/or data contained cannot be used by the enemy, or the ship hull itself cannot be used by the enemy as a trojan horse or fire ship. This would apply to civilian ships as well, though primarily as a means of keeping the ship from plowing into populated areas or space stations, where it would most likely be heading, should some sort of malfunction occur. Practical purposes aside, sometimes it's just cool to blow things up. :) |
| Battle Works Studios | 21 Aug 2011 4:23 p.m. PST |
Depending on your power source and drive system, a "self-destruct device" may simply involve turning off whatever is keeping your ship from exploding in the first place. Star Trek ships with matter/antimatter "blenders" for power supply are pretty much explosions waiting to happen, and at least some of the Romulan ships have a caged singularity on board. "Blowing up" is the natural condition for that sort of nonsense. The Nostromo had a self-destruct device because W-Y is a Stereotypical Evil Corporation, and would rather blow up a refinery, a tug, and a crew than let pirates or competitors make off with the goods. They made out like Bishop was only there because of the xenos, but I'd bet they plant an android in every crew on every ship just to make sure there's someone suicidally loyal enough to push the button if need be. |
| Frederick | 21 Aug 2011 5:24 p.m. PST |
Good thought "Nostromo Crew: You admire it.
WY Android: I admire its purity. A survivor… unclouded by conscience, remorse, or delusions of morality." |
| jizbrand | 21 Aug 2011 7:21 p.m. PST |
To keep the location of the home world secret? |
| Alex Reed | 21 Aug 2011 8:08 p.m. PST |
Ummm… Just as a point (and they brought this up in the more sensible of the two "An Asteroid is going to hit the Earth" movies (The one without Bruce Willis). If you blow up a ton of stuff, you still have a ton of stuff that is just broken into smaller pieces. In the case of 20 tons (rather small really. Odds are likely that the refineries were thousands of tons – like real ones), you are just going to blow it into smaller pieces that collectively weigh 20 tons. The new Battlestar Galactica also made a point of showing that when you blow up a gigantic mile long ship that all of the parts of it are still there, they just happen to have been separated from each other by the explosion. Even a large thermonuclear device will only turn a small portion of the mass into a plasma or gas. And then, you have a cloud of debris flying through space. |
| Alex Reed | 21 Aug 2011 8:11 p.m. PST |
Oh, and Rocket Self-Destruct devices (on things like Minotaur Rockets, used to test devices like the HTV-2 or the X-51/52) are only used over the ocean. Over land, they tend to make certain it's ballistics don't take it over a populated area. The Self-Destruct on these is used to make certain that the devices in question are in an area where they may either be recovered, or where recovery can be made impossible. The devices don't blow the rockets to bits, but just destroy their motors. |
| Lion in the Stars | 21 Aug 2011 10:04 p.m. PST |
Alex, have you ever seen how they dispose of old solid rocket motors? That's a pretty significant explosion, blasts a crater 200' in diameter and about 50' deep into desert hardpan. |
| badger22 | 21 Aug 2011 11:13 p.m. PST |
Yes you still have the same amount of stuff, and converted it into a cluster bomb besides. But, at least if you are far enough out, some of that stuff will be pushed into a trajectory that will take it clear of the target. I dont know if that will be enough to make a big difference. The other thing that helps is that the wider dispersion means a bit more get burned up in the Atmo. not sure again if it would be enough to make a difference. I also wonder if it might not make a lot more difference if you didnt set it off dead center, but instead put it on one side of the hull to help push more of it away. Again, the farther out yopu are the better the effect. Of course if you are the one guy that would have gotten squished but didnt, then the difference is big. So with that in mind, you probably would do as much as you could to mitigate the damage. All of this is reminding me of a great old filk song titled Falling on New Jersey. Owen |
| Angel Barracks | 21 Aug 2011 11:22 p.m. PST |
It is sci-fi not sci-fact, who says the explosion won't blow it to tiny little bits.
If they can have light speed travel, gravity on ships just because it is easier to film and aliens all over the place, why not very deadly explosions that will destroy a ship. |
| Alex Reed | 22 Aug 2011 3:11 a.m. PST |
The only issue with Self-Destruct systems currently on most aircraft or rockets is either a safety system to prevent an uncontrolled ballistic trajectory (We had a class at NASA Ames about this for a project there), or it is to prevent discovery of specific technologies if the device were to fall into another's hands (usually this is economic, and not military or security related). And, yes, I have seen the disposal of solid fuel boosters for Atlas V rockets. If we are talking about deep-space, then it doesn't make any difference, as all you would be trying to do would be to prevent an identifiable object from being exploited. But if it is a case of an object within the solar system, then "destructs" are not included on items. The means of destruction would be a controlled re-entry into an atmosphere (as has been done with probes on Jupiter and the Earth – and will be done shortly at Saturn). We include self-destruct mechanisms on ICBMs, Tactical Missiles, and some other military ballistics mostly as a fail-safe (So that if a launch does occur, we might disable the warheads and delivery vehicle in the hopes that it will not reach its target live). But… Self-Destructs like on the Nostromo… Plot Device, pure and simple. Weyland-Yutani had no reason to build a Self-Destruct into a tow-truck. A simple course correction into a gas giant would be all that was needed for safety. And, yes… If you blew up something that big with a powerful enough explosive, many of the parts would fly off in all directions, reducing the chances of a part intersecting an inhabited area (eventually). |
| Lampyridae | 22 Aug 2011 3:44 a.m. PST |
Re the Nostromo, when you have sufficient energy to warp space/time, then you can make an H-bomb look like a wet squib. But yes, given the other energies we see, very much plot device. And multiple explosions? Solid rocket motors are not destroyed, they are unzipped by detcord so that the internal pressure is released and then it just becomes a long burning piece of fuel that's flapping open. |
| Ghostrunner | 22 Aug 2011 8:01 a.m. PST |
In the case of the Nostromo, maybe it was an anti-piracy deterrent? It's a stretch, but maybe there was a rash of ships thefts, and this was to remove the profit incentive for would-be corsairs? The only other idea I could buy was someone was worried about 'the other guy' getting the ship and a course back to Earth. Still, if that were a real concern, you wouldn't think Y-T would have standing orders that signals of possible alien origin had to be investigated. |
 Parzival | 22 Aug 2011 8:29 a.m. PST |
In an FTL setting, there might not be a convenient star/planet to crash a ship into to scuttle the vessel in an emergency. So, if the possibility of losing significant tech or weaponry to an enemy might indeed result in a self-destruct capability being built into a ship. |
| blackscribe | 22 Aug 2011 11:15 a.m. PST |
Shofixti Scout: "Kyaiee!" I always loved that -- otherwise, seems silly. |
| Mako11 | 22 Aug 2011 11:54 a.m. PST |
Pretty much to help the movie plot, but subs do have the capability of scuttling, so it isn't too far out there. To keep your enemies from finding out intel, or using your tech against you would be logical. I'll be we wished there was a better self-destruct mechanism on the stealth chopper that went into Pakistan. I still don't understand why the remains weren't blown into smaller bits in a follow-up raid. |
| Ghostrunner | 22 Aug 2011 6:58 p.m. PST |
Pretty much to help the movie plot, but subs do have the capability of scuttling, so it isn't too far out there. I served on subs. I think the procedure for scuttling was to forget to do the maintenance on the seals around the main shaft… ;) I'll be we wished there was a better self-destruct mechanism on the stealth chopper that went into Pakistan. I still don't understand why the remains weren't blown into smaller bits in a follow-up raid. Agreed – wish there had been. On the other hand, you are limited in what you can carry in an operation like that. Carrying an extra 100 pounds of explosives 'just in case' for that kind of event just wouldn't seem like that high a priority… until it becomes one. As far as the followup raid – having lost the element of surprise, as likely as not the second team would have been caught and paraded in front of the press. The more reasonable 'self destruct' in that situation would have been a concentrated missile strike to destraoy the remains. But that wasn't going to happen for the same reasons that we sent the team in the first place. |
| Mako11 | 22 Aug 2011 8:50 p.m. PST |
That's what Predator drones are for. Not as if they don't know they're flying overhead all the time by now. If worried about casualties on the ground, a phone call to the locals, or a large speaker attached to another drone which flies much lower than normal, playing a continuous loop message like the following would work "…you are in a weapons impact zone, get out within the next minute to avoid becoming a casualty…". |
| Artraccoon | 22 Aug 2011 9:36 p.m. PST |
Another self-destruct system in SF to question would be the nuclear demo systems found on the ships in the movie "Silent Running". They were a main plot point, but one does have to ask why they had LOTS of nuclear charges on board…enough for each dome, and more( one dome left on the Valley Forge, and yet lots of charges left over). The Nostromo's self-destruct was at least designed around the engine systems( hence the importance of the cooling system Ripley mentioned to Mother), with some kind of element/detonator added to complete the scuttling system.
I need to drag out my "Alien" photo book or still the DVD and see what more I can gleen from the instruction panel. |
| Space Aardvark | 23 Aug 2011 3:14 a.m. PST |
I think Artraccoon has got the point neatly there, if you had a fleet of obsolete ships out there in the boonies and they didn't have the fuel to reach homeworld maybe it would be easier to get all the crews onto one smaller ship to get them home and just blow those mothers to silicon hell! Or maybe 'Evil Incorporated' are doing things out in the depths of space that would have their Wolfram and Hart company Directors up on SERIOUS CHARGES, so as soon as a Federation Battlecruiser appears the secret android presses the button and booooom booom boooom. Secret project? What secret project? |
