"The D6 Mechanic" Topic

Just wondering how many of you favor d6 mechanics for wargaming, and why? What are the pros and cons of using this over, say something like d10?

I personally remember RPG games my friend made as "home brew" sets back when I was young and he used the d6 for the mechanics. Perhaps I'm leaning toward d6 out of pure nostalgia, but hoped some more qualified than I could point out some things I may not have considered.

How do you work the d6 mechanic into your system? Is it one maybe 3 dice, or bucketloads?

-B6

I like d6. They are easy to find and plentiful. They are as reasonable as anything else to produce random results.

How can one not like a D6, classic styling and reliable results can't be beat!

But, if you are using a 1d6 system then a 1+/- modifier can really throw the odds out the window. I've played quite a bit of 'Heros' system from ICE that uses 3d6 for most things and that was a very workable system, albeit RPG.

Nothing beats d6 for the bucketsfullodice style of gaming as they are plentiful and easy.

Nd6 distributions have elegant statistical properties, and so I like them for that. The one exception is 1d6, which is boring, no matter how well it speeds gameplay.

If I were designing a system totally from scratch and only for myself, it would use percentiles.

What is the advantage of D10 or D20, beyond a greater variety, which can be just as easily as a judicious 3D6 table? If anyone says "they are more accurate", I will just laugh him out of the room.

By evening out the random spread, "Bucketsful O'Dice" are MORE accurate than a single D20 or D100 roll.

Finally, I can go into a Dollar store, and get a carded blister of 6 or 8 die for a buck.

It depends upon the complexity level you are after: if you want it simple, use few dice. When I designed the Plastic Wars(TM) games, I had a clear idea of the complexity level I wanted the players to face, and the game components the players would need to acquire, separately from the rules (that is, not from me, but another vendor). I kept it simple, and I chose d6's because they're available in most drug stores, as opposed to polyhedra sets, which are a specialty item, only available in gaming stores.

I created the combat system so that it requires a single die roll, to determine the "To Hit"; casualties, on the other hand, can be 1d6-3d6 (with modifiers), depending upon the firepower involved, and cover, if any.

It really boils down to your compromise point on playability versus 'historical' accuracy, in your simulation (game). There are many trade-off's, and you, as the game designer, need to find what you (and your target audience) feel is acceptable -- in other words, FUN! If you enjoy statistical analysis, then you will likely want more 'realism' in your game, which limits playability: rules will be more complex, and, therefore, more time-consuming to play out each game turn. If you go for a faster playing game, then in-depth statistical analysis will be a waste of time: rules will be simpler, faster playing, and more abstract, the game turns will play out much faster, as the die-rolls will be fewer, and more limited (d6, as opposed to polyhedra dice rolls, the number spread will be smaller, generally, giving faster results).

I think it boils down to DJButtonup said. A single modifier to a die roll has a huge impact to a D6. If the game is to have just a very few modifiers, then that might be acceptable.

However, if the game includes lots of different modifiers (especially anything greater than a +1), then another dicing system is the way to go in order to avoid skewing results. That could be a D10, or a D20, or something else entirely. I've always enjoyed the 3D6 roll. Modifiers make a difference but don't turn a schmoe into a hero by themselves.

It all depends on you goals. Here are some of the things that I would consider...

Aesthetically, the new-style D10's are horrible. Old-style D10's are nice, but very hard to find. (The new ones have five faces on one half, and five faces on the other. The old ones are D20's marked 0 to 9 twice.)

As others have already noted, D6's are always plentiful.

The most important thing is the distribution of values and how they fit your game. For example, 2D6 and 1D12 give you very nearly the same range of values, but the distributions are very different. But neither distribution is right or wrong. You need to pick the distribution that gives you the results you're looking for.

Interestingly, a rather godo question, with some great probability answers.

However, for me, D6 is the die of choice.
- You can read it from any direction
- You can read it from distance

These two things have an effect on game speed, without a doubt.

I feel that a single die is all about Fate, not about science. You know the odds instantly when you look at it (1 in 6, etc), that helps make the decisions clear & faster - no long lists of detailed modifiers. If you need to roll a 6 for something to win, then you better have a back up plan!

(althought nD6 works as well, i prefer single D6 roll mechanics for the pure simplicity & speed)

I personally hate those d6 that have roman numerals. Give me pips every time!

Why I like d6 and why I went back to it for my house rules for a WWII set I play (as opposed to percentile dice) is the feel of a couple of d6 clacking about in your hand. Picture this:

Those Germans have a King Tig (for those not familiar with it, think of a MONSTER super tank) blocking the road and it's chewing up everything you throw at it! But you've managed to, with hair raising suspense, sneak up a PIAT team (a bazooka or itsy bitsy infantry hand fired AT weapon). Now the whole game rests on whether or not those infantry can take care of the monster!

Trembling sweat pours out of players on both sides as they lean over the table in anticipation, desperately waiting for you to roll the dice! You feel the agony and pleasure of the 50,000 pound weight of prssure bearing down on you and the control imparted to you with the hopes and desperation of the other players, all knowing what hinges on this roll.

In such a situation, the solid clunking of the corners of the dice against the cupped palms of your hand is reassuring and in fact heightens the urgency of the moment, adding to the drama! Then there is the utter finalty of the numbers facing the ceiling as the dice roll and clatter across the table (and invariably fall to the floor as in tense situations like this one or all dice always fall off the table).....

C'mon folks, other dice might be easier to design modifiers for but they are totally wimpy compared to the d6 in the above regard! 8

I used a d20 for pretty much everything in my own VN rules ("Nuoc Mom"), mainly because of speed. I have it so that a single die roll tells whether an attack is a miss/supress/wound/kill. I have found that, especially with todays pip-impaired youth, a d20 makes things go faster. YMMV. :-)

I still like d6s, though.

Sounds like it's all a matter of taste, and not probabilities. I'm fine with almost ANY kind of dice (except those clunky triangular D4's which just don't roll), as long as the game system uses them in a way that is interesting or just feels "right".

I like Nd6 because of the distribution of odds. The extreme rolls are not as common as the midrange results. 2d6 is my preferred combination.

I really don't like a single d6. Especially if there is always a 1 in 6 chance of a miss or failing to kill.

Several dice of any kind give you a Gaussian distribution. Which is good enough for most things -- Gaussians and multi-Gaussians are the only things used for pattern classification, for instance.

You then need multiple dice. Which kind becomes pretty much irrelevant (what is better, 3d6 or 2d10? and why?). This has one disadvantage: when you have multiple concurrent rolls, you have to do them separately, since you need to remember which goes with which. This is why single-die systems also have there advantages: if you have one guy allowed X shots, you can roll X dice at the same time. Only then does the kindof dice used become relevant.

I would like something larger (preferably a d12). d6 means that all of the unit stats in a game are going to be too similar. Especially when some companies set the benchmark of a setting at the level of elite troops.

Tim, are you a writer? If not you should give it a try.

To my mind, choice of dice is not necessarily as important as what you're planning to do with them. If you're planning to use them to resolve a few distinct cases, then you're better off going with multiple dice -- you get the feeling of greater predictability. If you planning on *lots* of events to resolve (we've seen the example of a gunfighter shooting three shots in an action), then going with a single die for each event allows you to resolve a large number of events at once.

Now, do I like d6 over d10? Again, it depends on what I'm doing. Napoleon's Battles uses d10s, which are the exact right dice for it -- most combats are resolved by both players rolling a die (effectively creating a 2d10 roll), while some other situations will require a player to roll a single die. Going with a d6 wouldn't hurt the opposed rolls too much, but the unopposed roll would go from 10% steps to 17% steps -- meaning that you'd have only two levels of competance for every three that you'd have with a d10.

It's not that d6 is better or worse, it's what you're trying to do with them. (Though, I think we can discount d5s and d7s -- they're too darned expensive.)

I try and use D6 in rules I write because they are plentiful and easy to use as a player.

However when it gets to lots of factors I find percentiles the easiest to use when designing. Base 40% to hit +5% for short range -15% for light cover etc etc is a lot easier for me to work out in my head as a designer and clarifies my thought process.

I like d6s myself, but for simple resolution. The problem I have with d6 systems is that stats of units tend to blend with very little difference between them (like Blackscribe mentioned). Which is why I tend to favor d6 systems that give +1 or -1 to a roll and that roll multiple dice. The best d6 system I have seen to date is Dream Pod 9's Sil system.

For most games I'd prefer a d10 because it's easy to see the odds of a given task in percentile. If you need a 6 or better - you're basically looking at a 60% chance of success. But I'll play any system that "feels" right with its mechanics as long as it doesn't incorporate too much of a d4...

I'm a big fan of 3d6 and 2d6. I love the spread they give. It works well when you're looking for results that are weighted to the middle with rare extremes. So something like a 'critical' strike or fumble is more enjoyable when it actually happens.

I prefer a 1D6 opposed roll. Availability and legibility of D6 have already been mentioned. The opposed roll keeps both players engaged, while having the same distribution as 2D6.

I like the d20, it gives an even spread of possibilites, simulates a percentile pretty well (everything is in 5% increments), allows for some variation in stats, and they look nice. And in a pinch they can substitute for:
d4 (1-5 =1, 2-10 =2, etc)
d6 (1-3 =1, 2-6 = 2, etc. reroll 19&20)
d8 (1-2 = 1, 2-3 = 2, etc, reroll 17-20)
d10 (subtract 10 if the roll is higher than 10)

The can roll on forever, like under the couch (especially if you are losing!). Oh, hail the versatile d20!

Availability? Who does not have access to anything other than D6s? I can see a new gamer not knowing about the other Ds but don't all hobby shops/game shops who carry dice have the others too?

Hmmm...d20, The One True Die.....20mm, The One True Scale....

I see a trend starting :P

Great day,

d6's are more available than any other size. My parents have some in their house, my girlfriends parents have some in their house. If I forget my dice for a game of D&D I can't run out to the closest grocery store or what have you and pick up some d20s and d10s.

However when I went on vacation last year with my girlfriends family and took some WAB figs along to play games with I forgot my dice. Fortunately the house they rented had a game of Yatzhee sitting in it so we could play.

So there is an availability issue. John pointed this out above as well, I might note.

You guys are awesome! Thanks for all the insights and input. You've all given me plenty to consider.

Sgt Slag, where can one find a copy of "Plastic Wars"?

-B6

d5s and d7s??? I'm curious!

Bravo Six,

Plastic Wars( TM ) is available via mail order. For a detailed description of the game, visit my web site. There is an order page, as well, should you decide to give it a try:

link

d5s and d7s are tricky to make because the faces aren't the same. For d5s, two of the faces are triangular and opposite each other, and the other three are perpendicular to the first two. They are sized and balanced so that the die can stand on any of the faces -- if it ends up on a triangular face, you read the top of the die, while if you end up on a rectangular face, you read it like a d4.

The d7s I have are easier to read -- the pips are cut in such a way that you can always read it from the top, and instead of triangular sides, they've got pentagonal sides.

I got mine on-line (can't remember the store or manufacturer, sorry) along with a d16. They ran at least a dollar a pop, and I gave them out (with Happy Face dice) as party favors one Halloween.

Pictors

If you forget your dice for a D&D game you can borrow your buddies dice. I dont see how forgetfulness = lack of availability. Short term you miss out on a day of gaiming. Sorry but I just don't buy into the availability argument regarding d6. Just my opinion.

Actually, if you're designing a game, and planning to provide a box set that includes dice among its components, d6s are much less expensive. It's not an issue, really, if you're only putting one or two dice in a box, but if you're planning to go with the "hordes of dice" mechanic (a la GW), then the cost of the dice becomes an issue.

I wanted more granuality and modifiers so started on a d10 system for my rules "Shattered Lances". Playtests showed this skewed combats somewhat towards the "tails"- so I ended up switching to 2d6 for combat. Seems to work, even though there is some switching required during a turn...

Chthonic regards

B

I'm more used to D10 for most things and am probably going to end up using it for my mechanic. That said I may give 2d6 a go and see how it goes.

Question: why would one use 2d6 when they could use d12?

-B6

"Question: why would one use 2d6 when they could use d12?"

Because the distributions are completely different.

When rolling 1d12, you have twelve different outcomes, with the probability of rolling any single number the same and equal to 1/12.

When rolling 2d6, you have eleven different outcomes, with the probability of rolling any of those outcomes being weighted.

A two or twelve has a 1/36 chance of being rolled.

A three or eleven has a 2/36 chance of being rolled.

A four or ten has a 3/36 chance of being rolled.

A five or nine has a 4/36 chance of being rolled.

A six or eight has a 5/36 chance of being rolled.

And a seven has a 6/36 chance of being rolled.

When rolling for a target number or higher (or lower), you simply add the probabilities of the favorable outcomes.

FOR EXAMPLE:

When rolling for a 4 or higher on a d12, that would be nine chances out of twelve, or 9/12, or 75%.

When rolling for a 4 or higher on 2d6, that would be 33 chances out of 36, or 33/36, or 91.7%.

Assuming I have my numbers correct. It's early, and I haven't had any coffee yet. :)

So you can see the distributions are completely different.

Kevin

Hi

A shorter explination:

1d12 gives you a straight line probability for each number, just like a die 10, with roughly 8% increments. OR, if you have events tied to specific numbers:ALL OUTCOMES ARE EQUAL.

with 2d6, you get a step pyramid of probability, almost approximates a "bell curve". Each step is 2.8% with "Lucky 7" the most common. This means, as a designer, you can shape your tables to have more common events come up more commonly, but still have a rare event possible without giving it an EQUAL chance to the common results you want.

For example: roll a 7 kill a soldier, roll a snakeeyes and your gun just malfunctioned and injured you.

Rocky

Thanks Kevin and Rocky for clearing that up. I was just thinking the latter part of your statement Rocky. Snakeeyes is a gun jam. Excellent.

I like the sound of the probability factor for 2d6. More variation that d10, and increases the max values of my weapons and traits by 2 more. How can ya do better than that??!!

(I'm sure someone's waitin' with a smarta** remark to answer that;) )

-B6

Bravo Six,

If you have access to a 1st Ed. AD&D, Dungeon Master's Guide, E. G. Gygax has a discussion, in one of the first few chapters, on dice probabilities, and bell curve probabilities (complete with graph), for adding dice together. You may find it interesting, and informative, to read. If you can find one to read, for no cost, it is worth your while, otherwise, don't bother. Cheers!

Thanks Sarge. Don't own it, but I think EGG talks about that in game design theory in "Masters of the Game" no? I have THAT and "Role Play Mastery" packed away in boxes somewhere.

-B6

There are also games like Stargrunt that use a "quality dice" concept - the type of die you roll depends on the quality of the unit performing the task (in Stargrunt it can be d4, d6, d8, d10 or d12). Very interesting concept in my opinion, though perhaps a bit restricted in variety.

As for the strange dice, a couple of weeks ago I was shown a D34 - I am still trying to figure out what gaming use such a die can have.

As for availability issues, D6 might be easiest to obtain, but polyhedral dice are usually easier to obtain than miniatures and wargaming rules, since every RPG store packs a ton of them in different colours.

Griefbringer

Still, there is no number in a 2D6 system that is 50:50.

I'm not sure I follow, Mobius.

-B6

Mobius is stating that on a 2d6 there is no single number that you would have an exactly 50% chance of rolling equal to or above.

However, you can make a set of numbers such that you have a 50% chance of receiving one of them on any given roll (say, numbers 3, 5, 7, 9 and 11).

Griefbringer

Gotcha.

-B6

Hi

sure there is! Only roll ONE!

Grin

Rocky

interesting discussion... suppose I have a game in which combat works with a single opposed D6 roll, with a maximum modifier of +3 for either side. would this method of combat resolution massively privilege or disadvantage tough hero types who have the maximum modifier? and how random would such a game be? I like the idea of using a single D6 because it's elegant and would seem to limit the range of powerlevels, but wonder how it would work out in practice.

and, what would be the effect of allowing an additional D6 to be rolled and added in case of a 6 on the initial die-roll. aaaargghhh, I wish I wasn't such a maths dummy! ;-)

Rotorvator, do you want to get the statistics for those cases? I can give you here the calculations for the case of a single straight opposed d6 roll for each side, with a maximum allowed advantageous modifier of +3.

* If neither side has an advantage, then there is 6/36 chance of a draw, and 15/36 chance of win for each side.

* If one side gets +1 to the roll, there is 5/36 chance of a draw, 10/36 chance of a win for the disadvantaged and 21/36 chance of a win for the advantaged side.

* If one side gets +2 to the roll, there is 4/36 chance of a draw, 6/36 chance of a win for the disadvantaged and 24/36 chance of a win for the advantaged side.

* If one side gets +3 to the roll, there is 3/36 chance of a draw, 3/36 chance of a win for the disadvantaged side and 30/36 chance of a win for the advantaged side.

So as you can see, on an opposed d6 roll even a small modifier has a huge impact.

As for the case of getting to roll an extra d6 on a score of 6, that requires a bit more maths - I will try to get to that later on (I think it would slightly favour the disadvantaged side).

Griefbringer

I took a look at the figures, and came up with the numbers for the situation where if you roll a 6 on the first dice, you get to roll another d6 and add it to the score (but rolling a 6 on this second dice does not have special effect.

* If neither side has an advantage, then there is 6/36 chance of a draw, and 15/36 chance of win for each side (identical to the above).

* If one side gets +1 to the roll, there is 4/36 chance of a draw, 11/36 chance of a win for the disadvantaged, 20/36 chance of a win for the advantaged side and 1/36 chance that both players rolled 6 for the first roll.

* If one side gets +2 to the roll, there is 3/36 chance of a draw, 7/36 chance of a win for the disadvantaged, 23/36 chance of a win for the advantaged side and 1/36 chance that both players rolled 6 for the first roll.

* If one side gets +3 to the roll, there is 2/36 chance of a draw, 4/36 chance of a win for the disadvantaged side, 29/36 chance of a win for the advantaged side and 1/36 chance that both players rolled 6 for the first roll.

If both players rolled 6 for the first roll (for which there is always 1/36 chance), then the chances of winning or draw are exactly the same as in the previous case (and could have been calculated in to the above if I did not feel slightly lazy right now).

In all these cases the disadvantaged side gets a slightly better chance of winning when the extra roll on a 6 is introduced.

Rotorvator, I hope this was of some help.

Griefbringer

Thanks you very much Griefbringer!!!! This helps a lot :-))

Just in case you want to become a real rules designer, you might want to learn to do the basic probability maths yourself. It might help life a bit.

Griefbringer