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"French SYW Grenadiers Royaux" Topic

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crogge175715 Aug 2011 4:16 a.m. PST

I'm at the point to paint 2 regts of French Grenadiers Royaux.
I wonder If anybody can solve the conflicting informations on their flags.
I have Funcken and the Kronoskaf article. Also a contemporary illustration found here
So, we have white cross covered with fleurs de lys, blue base color. Funken has flag bordered white, contemporary image seems to show blue border, Kronoskaf has none. Funken has an additional coat of army centred on the flag???

Has this been sorted by anyone?


abdul666lw15 Aug 2011 4:39 a.m. PST

Grenadiers Royaux OR Grenadiers de France?
The confusion is easy, all the more so as the Grenadiers de France are often referred to as 'Corps Royal des Grenadiers de France'!
Grenadiers de France: converged grenadiers from the French IR disbanded after the WAS. Blue uniform, bearskin.
Grenadiers Royaux: militia 'grenadiers' (i.e. 'mobilized' militia). White uniform, tricorn.

Mouillard gives the flags of both the Grenadiers de France link, ranking 40th in French infantry and the Grenadiers Royaux link, both with a coat of arms in the center. That of the Grenadiers Royaux is depicted with a white border (btw, I believe that Mouillard is 19th C., not contemporary of Louis XV).


Personal logo timurilank Supporting Member of TMP15 Aug 2011 5:06 a.m. PST

Mouillard, Lucien; Les Régiments sous Louis XV, does set the date 1744 for the flag with white border. Is it possible that the same flag in "Troupes du Roi, Infanterie française et étrangère, année 1757, is simply an ommission error?

Also possible, as the regiments did not carry a colonel's colour (Kronoskaf) the two flags might distinquish the 1st (with border) and 2nd battalion (without)of each regiment when they were increased in 1757?


Brownbear15 Aug 2011 6:18 a.m. PST

some extra information at link

crogge175715 Aug 2011 6:57 a.m. PST

I will do the militia Grenadiers Royaux, not the Grenadiers de France regiment. This one I already have.
@ Robert, I also thought of the white border being a life-colour version ?!?
But now that abdul666lw came up with the Mouillard plate, I completely forgot to look at – I have the feeling Mouillard / Funken is post SYW. There are others in those plates that are said to be post 7YW as well, such as that of regt. Bentheim/Anhalt.

abdul666lw15 Aug 2011 7:24 a.m. PST

Mouillard gives a single uniform, in the left ('before 1765') column, probably because there was no official change of the uniforms of the militia before the death of Louis XV (though of course the cut may have evolved). I see no reason why the flag would not correspond to this single image? 18th C. (and before! The flag of Picardie dates from Louis XI!) French infantry was very conservative when it came to its flags.
For what it may mean here, the flag given by Mouillard for the Grenadiers de France -as for all infantry regiments- is the 'battalion' (though called 'brigades' and, if I remember well, commanded each by a 'Marechal de Camp') one, not the 'Colonel'.

Delbruck15 Aug 2011 8:30 a.m. PST

I am always surprised by the uniforms of the Grenadiers Royaux. One would have thought that if the French wanted them to be regarded as elite they would have given them uniforms to match their status. As least the Grenadiers de France had uniforms that made them look elite, although I am not sure their battlefield performance matched their "proto old guard" appereance.

abdul666lw15 Aug 2011 10:28 a.m. PST

In the case of the Grenadiers Royaux, they were merely those militiamen who were selected (volunteers???) to follow the army (*theoretically* for 'second line' duties: guarding depots and lines of communications…) rather than staying in their province. Grenadiers here is an 'honorary' title to balance (?) the extra hardship and risks. Even if somehow 'elite', 'elite militia' would be roughly equivalent to 'average' line infantry. Hence the simple uniform, similar to that of the 'line' fusiliers except for the shoulder lace.

As for the Grenadiers de France,their quality decreased with time as the original 'true' grenadiers were progressively replaced with new recruits -often volunteers from the Grenadiers de France turning 'professional'. 'Esprit de Corps' / pride was certainly high, but did not make up for the relaxed selection. Also, they were at first used as 'shock troops' and suffered very high casualties. And the Corps was terribly expensive -each company was commanded by a colonel!

freecloud15 Aug 2011 2:10 p.m. PST

I used the Mouillard plate without the border, did the Chantilly unit (Lace Wars – geddit :D )

They performed quite well in action.

adster16 Aug 2011 6:00 a.m. PST

The Grenadiers Royaux were frequently brigaded with the Grenadiers de France on the battlefield so there must have been some regard for their elite status. (I gave my Grenadiers Royaux bearskins as there were many regiments who adopted that headgear unofficially, on no evidence whatsoever mind you…)

Tricorne197117 Aug 2011 7:37 p.m. PST

No bearskins. The Grenadiers Royaux were just good militia guys as a previous post described. I have an excellent book on the history of these batallions written in the 19thCthat I originally used at the Newberry Research library on Chicago. I'll find the cite and post it.

CyberMonk19 Aug 2011 4:45 a.m. PST

The only contemporary source available to Kronoskaf for the colours of the Grenadiers Royaux is "Troupes du Roi, Infanterie française et étrangère, année 1757, tome I". The illustration of the two identical colours shows a blue field, a blue border and a white cross sown with golden fleurs de lys (without any arms).

We had omitted this blue border. I re-edited the colour to add it.

I did not find any textual depiction of these colours in the various Etats Militaires made available by Patrice Menguy on his website link

Mouillard, more than a century later, illustrates a white border but we do not know his sources for this. Could it be that each regiment of Grenadiers Royaux had a different border colour? After all they had different distinctive on the collar.

If anybody has any additional info, I'd like to hear about it.

Richard Couture

Project SYW

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