"Cakewalk Gone Bad" Topic

Some more fiction for the Alien Suns universe for our forthcoming 28mm hard plastic range

link

Hope you like!

Tony

Tony Reidy
Defiance Games
defiancegames.com

Nice language.

Allen

Good call Allen

Interesting reading!

Reads a little like the author has something against the Chinese.

I'm sorry Allen – I guess I'm a grown up who can use the (hand over mouth) oooh – F word.

What – ?

Sorry All – I'm just over-used to Allen's constant paranoia/flip-flopping/etc.

One minute he's your buddy – the next he's sticking you with sharp pointy things in your back.

Paranoia? I'm seeing projection there.

You've never taken honest criticism well, Tony. That's why I gave up trying to suggest things; you took anything other than the fawning praise of your coterie as a personal attack.

Honestly, I don't care now what you do to alienate potential customers--or the parents of potential customers who don't want their kids reading that sort of thing. But a word to the wise… oh, never mind.

Allen

Allen, you rarely give honest Criticism. You just jut in with any remark all the time like you're the most perfect person alive and everyone else is beneath you. Our ways of thinking are always wrong and you're always right, isn't that how it usually ends up?

So instead of saying Tony can't take criticism, which frankly, I agree he can't, why don't you simply stop all the bloody damn time?

Treat others as you would want to be treated and more importantly, make REAL criticisms. No one cares if he used profane language in HIS story. Not like he used it excessively like a Hollywood script writer who thinks the F-word is a replacement for most adjectives in the English language.

And Tony, for god's sake, just stifle him instead of making yourself look like a fool on here by answering his snarky or snide little comments. When you feed the problem, you make it worse. I actually had to unstifle him just see why he annoyed you so much. For someone who runs a business, your comment is horribly inappropriate, almost as bad as his usually are to the situation.

Tony,

I have been following the process of your efforts with two companies…saw some good stuff put into plastic and have seen some good designs considered/developed.

I would rather say the next part in a Private Mail, but I can't…so here goes…

I will use one word to describe the potential of where this could go…Spinespur.

Now this is not an attack on you by any means, not even a rock thrown towards Comfy Chair (Spinespur).

The idea of what Spinespur offered was clearly right up my alley…stereotype horror characters in a skirmish setting…the potential for vampires, ghouls, werewolves, etc. as well as named characters.

But, and this is a big but, Spinespur lost me (me, who is unimportant) and I suspect lost a significant potential customer base because of one reason…the powers that be did not see a problem with their limited self editing.

Even when hiding behind the shield of "adult content"…the background fluff that drives Spinespur is questionable at the very least…and can easily be seen as blue or worse.

I say "Spinespur" in reference to you because of the language. I am an adult and I use the limiting vocabulary of cursing in my day to day speech far more than I should. And while it does not offend me, I know that it degrades my public status…curse in front of the wrong person…

I opened your thread, went right to the site, started to read the writeup, and shot right back here to send you a friendly PM…found the bickering…and not wanting to be part of it, left.

Sigh, then I went back to read more later and it still caught me off guard, so I came back.

Spinespur…because even though the idea for the game was sound (and I understand the game play itself works quite nicely)…when was the last time you read Spinespur on TMP news item or thread topic?…take away the ones I typed and I suspect not much.

Tony I like where you are going with the new company, there is lots to appreciate and anticipate.

With the issues of the recent past that need not be named, if I were a real buddy I would tell you the same as I am now…fly under the radar my friend.

I support your efforts and your plans, but you do not need ANY bad press or attitude coming your way.

I have no intention of joining sides with anyone…this is just a thought from one TMPer to another…I would avoid anything on my main site that could be considered blue or a perch for fencesitters.

Just a thought, nothing more.

Tony I look forward to seeing your product line and ideas come to life, soon!

Have a great weekend.

PS
Spinespur is still a viable game with a line of interesting miniatures, I wish the company and the followers/gamers that play it all the best! Just because it bothered me does not make it bad or wrong, opinions and such…apples and oranges…hand grenades and eggs…it is what is.

:)

It's fine for adults but the anti-Chinese stuff bothers me a bit. I'm assuming the game will have Chinese sci fi miniatures which is great. But I wouldn't want players picking up and using the word "Chink" or the phrase " of a daughter" in a game.

Tony, you've uses the Chinese equivalent of the N-word. Leave the racism out please, it is tainting what you are doing.

Just let it go.

As a soldier, I appreciate the language for the setting. I also did not find the slang offensive. If anybody else did, you have either not spent time on the line, nor paid much attention to the slang soldiers applied to their enemies over the years. Although I can spew an arsenal of $10 USD words, as an 11B, slang and epitaphs get my point, mood, and thinking delivered more concisely to my subordinates …and likewise I can get a better feel for their current situation.
Nobody I know says golly gosh darn they are shooting a blah blah blah at me….those silly upstanding citizen soldiers of blah blah nation. . Nope slang for the enemy and slang for the weapons works so much better…and the frequency of the f-bomb is a good indicator of how dire the situation is

No need for the racism or profanity.. a good writer does not need to resort to it.

Not come across your products/system before till now, the pictures look interested, but you lost me as a potential customer already I fear; If this the general timber and tone of the rest of the gaming background and system as a whole.

I am hoping, the anti Chinese attitude is not a personal view held by the author. There is a major difference between the Chinese as a people, and Communist Party Politics of their present government. One is open (like our own government) for attack and ridicule. The other is racism, and which we shouldn't tolerate or propagate.
From a marketing prospective, and company growth prospective, if you plan to franchise or sell packaged products via retailers, you have already cut your market to adult only if you include this type of explicit content. You will also potentially be banned in some countries under the racism and profanity laws. Given the age demographic of sci-fi wargamers being heavily weighted toward teenager and therefore minors, you are limiting your sales potential heavily.
I can see the attempt is to make the portrayed character appear gritty, and with a hatred for his enemy. The stereotypical square jawed hero, but that can be done with better writing, implying his views in other ways, rather than specifically stating them, as is done by fiction writers dealing with such matters in thousands of ways already.

There are a lot of Ifs and from one article it would not be fair to fully judge a still unfinished project. However for me it is not a great start from my point of view, and definitely has failed to fill me with interest and anticipation, which I presume was the intent of the article. But that is just my view.

I didn't expect everyone to get so upset about a couple common profanities and the fact that soldiers use racially sensitive language on the battlefield – once. Yikes.

Okay – lesson learned. Here's the revised story:

link

The daughter of the Emperor is still a "" but in Mandarin – as that's somewhat integral to the larger story…especially from Tanui Mitchell's perspective.

The Alien Suns storyline is very realpolitik…there really are no good guys and badness comes in degrees. Soldiers on the various sides – US, German, British, French, Chinese, Russian, mercenaries, corporate security, the various alien races, etc. – don't think kindly of the people they fight and the environment is HIGHLY nationalistic. We may have to create some "new" in-universe racial/ethnic slurs to give the flavor of the setting.

Re: attitude toward the Chinese – I lived in China for a year and have many Chinese friends. The narrator of the story is a US government operative in a warzone fighting against the Chinese 200 years from now.

Thanks for all your feedback. Hope you like the revision. There are some other vignettes for the universe online as well:

Germans vs. USMC:
link

Native alien uprising on a French colony world:
link

German soldier writing home:
link

USMC getting ready for a "bug hunt":
link

What would Mark Twain do?

C.

Thanks for the changes. I know that in reality soldiers would use language not unlike what is in the original version but what we are doing is playing games not fighting a real war, I wouldn't want my gaming group to use that kind of language especially among the younger ones.

Actually I was somewhat more offended by the by the excuse "I lived in China" bit as that should give someone license to use racial terminology. Racial terminology is racial terminology. It still appears racist and I don't think it would matter if you lived in China and were Chinese yourself. I would still think it's wrong.

As for your company I was a big supporter and customer of Wargames Factory (i'm the one who pre-ordered a 1000 zombie figures) when you were running it and hope to be a customer of your new company as well.

@Rdfraf, 1000 zombies is quite a purchase. How many have you been able to assemble and paint? I only have 240 of the WGF zombies, all assembled, but only 80 painted to date.

You could always take the "serenity" approach to swearing.. ie using the chinese phrases for dirt eater, fat pigs, etc,.. as a suggestion. It worked very well,as though many people watching the series had no idea what the phrase meant, its context, meant it was obvious the person was swearing or saying something not nice or rude..

As for a 1000 plastic multipart zombies.. I have 70 SST MI's still on the sprues and they are bad enough.. never mine 1000 zombies.. thats a very big project.. love to see them whem they are all painted.. right back to sci-fi.

I didn't mean to hijack the thread. First off the "Serenity" way sounds. Just stay away from direct racial epithets.

As as for the 1000 zombies. I didn't end up buying 1000. Both my cousin and I each preordered a 1000 to endure they were produced and both of us were prepared to buy the 1000 but Tony told me the figures were so popular I didn't have to buy a 1000 so I settled for 600 instead. 200 of which are assembled and painted.

O yeah and by the way I'm Chinese.

Why do some companies think fiction will help sell figures? GW get away with it because they have a (relatively) huge fan base and some half decent professional writers. You have neither. Throwing in profanity or racism can work if handled well but is usually there because the author thinks it will excuse his other failings. It also comes across as a rather desperate attempt to shock.
The point I'm trying to make is that if you want to give everyone a feel for your background then try a non~fiction approach. Try the Tuffleyverse to see what I mean. Works much better.
Also, is this worth the bother? Nobody will buy your figures based on the quality of your writing but only on the quality of the sculpts. I have never bought a camera, washing machine etc. based on the literary merits (or lack thereof) of the instruction manual.

"I have never bought a camera, washing machine etc. based on the literary merits (or lack thereof) of the instruction manual"

True true…but I think the fluff is more of an interactive advertizement and I suspect we have all been influenced commercials to seek a particular camera, book, etc.

:)

PS
Tony, well on you mate. Regardless of the issues of the past I have found you to be a stand up sort of guy. I was looking out for your welfare not trying to stifle the creative spirit…the radar my friend…fly low and reach the target without being shot at, too much :)

Hi Randy – what I was trying to say was that the narrator of the story isn't ME…he's a character with his own opinions, etc. that aren't mine. Same way George MacDonald Fraser wasn't a 19th century rapscallion and Ernest Hemingway wasn't…well, that one doesn't work… ;-)

Thanks Randy,
T

Thanks 28mm Man! ;-)

I've found Tony tends to take criticism well enough. At least, he hasn't drop-kicked me off the DG site for my incessant criticism.

Frankly, I find that writing without the occasional profanity leaves me feeling rather like I'm reading an updated version of "Biggles". And by updated, without the insulting references to "The Hun". I also find the "OMG Racism" response of various forum-members to be, frankly, . There's a reason for the phrase "Swears like a trooper", and that's because soldiers swear. A lot. And they quite happily use racist terms that tend to shock and appall us poor wee civilians, because when someone is putting hot lead in your direction you really, really don't care about hurting their feelings.

TL:DR= Harden the up.

The revision is pretty good. I enjoyed it (didn't read the original). Nice mention of the Uighurs, adds a bit of depth.

On race, it's interesting to see how the internet makes everybody assume that everybody else they are talking to is (a) white and (b) male. When the Phantom Menace came out, people were up in arms over how Jar Jar Binks was offensive to Jamaicans and the Trade Federation critters were offensive to Japanese. Point is, there are plenty of people who will kick up a fuss over what (they perceive) as the slightest insult. May as well just be safe.

Context is all. Swearing and racism in a documentary or well done film or book adds to the whole experience. The same dropped into a puff piece for some plastic figures is just not needed and reeks of desperation. IMHO.

So, next time Tony, make your protagonists an entire platoon of British officers. Better yet, World War One Royal Flying Corps Officers, with an extra course in etiquette.

There was a case a couple of months ago where Australian soldiers in Afghanistan were found to be posting videos on the internets in which they were saying all manner of racist stuff about the locals.

The Australian public freaked out.

It was a rude shock for them to realise that these guys were not fitting the nationalist myth of a perfect hero that politicians and newspapers feed the public and the public love to eat. They failed to understand that firstly, these are young people in a deeply stressful situation, and secondly, and frankly, the type of folks who join a volunteer army are the type of folks who like guns, blowing things up, and swearing.

Should they have posted the videos though? No.

Anyways:
link

I say my fine fellow, that was rather boorish of you, wasn't it?

I must lodge a quite very strong-worded complaint. I am appalled. Just appalled.

(For The King of Rock and Roll)

and frankly, the type of folks who join a volunteer army are the type of folks who like guns, blowing things up, and swearing.

This!

I know me and my fellow Marines were gun aficionados who swore a lot and all of us wanted to blow stuff up. Some of us did for a living, the rest just wanted the chance.

Hell, I'm 50 now and i still read the gun porn and dream about blowing stuff up. And I swear, though not as much (when you've been around real hard-core cussers, the kind who make that scene in 'Cinderella Liberty' sound like a sunday sermon, you realize there is a time and place for an oath, and isn't 'all the time' or 'everyplace'…)

On the plus side, I'm a trained archaeologist, and let me tell you, NOBODY drinks harder than social scientists…

and frankly, the type of folks who join a volunteer army are the type of folks who like guns, blowing things up, and swearing.

*NJH: Maybe, or it could be they don't have a lot of options for social mobility. In the USA there is the opportunity to go to college on Uncle Sam's dime – hard to ignore, if you want more out of life than a ty job at the local plant/warehouse/factory/fast food joint.

Some folks are also motivated by patiotism, the real kind, not the BS so prevalent in jingoistic song and talk.

Cpt Arexu 14 Aug 2011 4:44 p.m. PST

…….

On the plus side, I'm a trained archaeologist, and let me tell you, NOBODY drinks harder than social scientists…

*NJH: Law students can slosh it down pretty hard.

I guess some attention is better than none.

On the plus side, I'm a trained archaeologist, and let me tell you, NOBODY drinks harder than social scientists…

I have had the privilege of late to be drinking with a captain of the former Red Army. For his birthday. Sorry dude, there is somebody.

Maybe, or it could be they don't have a lot of options for social mobility.

Indeed, I stand corrected. The socioeconomic strata are different in Australia than the US, as is the culture concerning the military. Take my above to be particular to that army, then.

I'll debate the law students vs the archaeologists, but I concede the Red Army can drink like mighty fish…

Cpt Arexu 18 Aug 2011 6:45 p.m. PST

I'll debate the law students vs the archaeologists, but I concede the Red Army can drink like mighty fish…

*NJH: I've seen Australian Diggers at work in a bar (69-70. I've not ever seen the like of it since. My vote goes to them for the most grand, "eloquent," and determined drinkers.