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"Ethnic regiments" Topic


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zippyfusenet05 Aug 2011 1:37 p.m. PST

Well, this thread has been well and truly jacked. I may as well pitch in.

"What happened if members of the orthodox community were drafted/conscripted ?"

Probably hired a substitute, which was legal in the north, or bought enough slaves to gain an exemption, which was legal in the south. In the 1860s most American Jews were prosperous enough to do one or the other.

Someone touched on this, but BD and doc, you may not be aware of some of the details of the Jewish Experience in America. Back to colony days, North America has been an exceptionally friendly and welcoming place for Jews. This is certainly in part because of the American fixation on color, white vs. red or black. From the beginning, Jews were 'white enough'.

IMO this is also because initially, fairly small numbers of wealthy, assimilated-looking Sefardim from the Netherlands and Hofjueden from Germany settled in the Atlantic port cities and participated in the Atlantic trade, including the slave trade. These rich merchants got along with their Christian neighbors and peers, to the extent of inter-marrying (the Jewish spouse always converted). This was true north and south, in port cities like New York, Philadelphia and New Orleans.

New Orleans in the mid-19th century was probably the most cosmopolitan city in the United States, north or south. It was unique. No doubt the French and Spanish influences were important. There was a free black militia unit in New Orleans, incredible in a country that was terrified of armed blacks.

Things changed drastically with the arrival in the late 19th century of masses of Polish Jews, my own heritage. Polish Jews were numerous, poor, dirty, noisy, foreign looking, and frequently commies. America was so horrified by their appearance, and other huddled masses of the era, as to slam shut the Golden Door, enacting legislation just before WWI that severely restricted immigration, and never again admitting large numbers of Jewish immigrants. My grandparents were very lucky.

Between the world wars a reactionary anti-semitism developed in the US that had never been seen here before. This was by no means a southern issue, the Ku Klux Klan was stronger in the mid-west than in the south when they marched in their sheets 100,000 strong down Pennsylvania Ave. and President Coolidge addressed them from the White House. Henry Ford published the Protocols and uniformed Brownshirts marched in the streets of Boston, badly frightening my parents, who did not know how their story would turn out. This all changed again with Pearl Harbor. Now anti-semites were the enemy. Comic books and movies (created by whom?) have kept them so. 65 years after the fall of Berlin, Hollywood is still fighting Nazis. I think it is not so much deliberate propaganda, as my parents' generation still fighting their childhood fears.

With the desegregation crisis of the 1950s and 60s, descendents of (mostly) Polish Jews became identified nationally and especially in the south with progressive-left politics. Jews were visible among the Civil Rights protesters. There was a revival of the rags of reactionary anti-semitism in the segregationist south and synagogues were bombed. This was a temporary crisis, and it has passed. You can still find the rags of reactionary anti-semitism on the Stormfront website and in isolated white-supremacist compounds, but it's not particularly a southern problem.

Generally, Jews in the US get along really well with the neighbors, to the point that we are fully assimilating. Nothing keeps us seperate. The rate of inter-marraige is currently over 50%. In another generation or two, only the hard-core Orthodox, who refuse to mix, will be left. My great-grandchildren may know that I was a Jew. They may know where the family name came from, and what it once meant. If they don't change it.

Rudysnelson05 Aug 2011 1:52 p.m. PST

based on my article research for 'Time Portal passages' I could identify 'ethnic' companies in Alabama's regiments but not entire regiments. One of note is an irish company out of Montgomery. The green Erin go Bragh flag was on one side and a confederate flag on the otehr.

Though since many infantry units were locally raised, you might say those were 'ethnic'. For example in Mobile one company was raised from local 'fire brigade members'. Only artillery and cavalry units were recruited from a wide area of several counties. Infantry units could be identified with a specific county or even a town in a county.

doc mcb05 Aug 2011 2:09 p.m. PST

Zippy, yeah, any small minority that wants to avoid absorption must also be pretty adamant about not marrying outsiders. When I taught at a boarding/day high school here in Chattanooga, I had lots of kids from all over: Anglos and African-Americans, Jews and Koreans, Hindus from India, etc. When we studied immigration, I liked to ask this, primarily of the girls:

How important is it to YOU that you marry someone "like you": -- however you define "like you."

And

How important is it to your MOTHER that you marry someone "like you."

Almost without exception the girls would say that it is not very important at all to them, but is EXTREMELY important to their mothers.

Bottom Dollar06 Aug 2011 7:18 a.m. PST

Their mother's probabley knew best :) The standards to which people are aculturated are important. The current one's aren't standards at all and in fact are opposed to aculturation.

docdennis196806 Aug 2011 9:29 a.m. PST

In the 1860s a larger percentage of the population, North and South, were either direct immigrants or second generation types with close ties to insular communities (urban and rural)! They felt close to the "old" cultures and many were bilingual! This led naturally to many, many companys being composed of "non natives" and a fair amount of regiments also. Twenty or thirty years later this would simply not be as normal in the USA!

zippyfusenet06 Aug 2011 3:31 p.m. PST

BD, I expect the girls really wanted to marry someone 'like themselves': trustworthy and productive and *good*. But the girls' concept of 'like themselves' had expanded from their mothers' concept of 'like themselves', and the girls were able to recognize likeness where the mothers could not.

vojvoda16 Aug 2011 8:08 a.m. PST

Gosh some great information between flak about post Civil War attitudes. Remeber that Grant's chief of staff at the surrender of Lee was a Native American (notice I did not say Indian!), also of note is the number of African American's who recieved pention from the Southern States for service in the confederacy during the way. There is a good book on the subject that I think is called Confederate Troops in Confederate Service. Now I know this subject causes a bigger food fight here on TMP then the one above so I will just leave that at that.
VR
James Mattes

donlowry16 Aug 2011 1:23 p.m. PST

There was a Native American (Iroquois) on Grant's staff (Parker), but he was not the chief of staff (Rawlins).

AICUSV16 Aug 2011 2:04 p.m. PST

I once read an account of the execution of a group of deserters have to be postponed for two weeks while a "Hebrew" chaplain was located and brought to the man. The man had enlisted and then en-route to his regiment he took "French leave". Although his regiment was not noted in the account it was noted that the man spoke no English. I would then assume he would have been in one of the German regiments.

Note about the 39th NY – Although it was officially listed as a "German Regiment" they referred to themselves as Italians, a review of their rolls shows the majority of the Regiment were Hungarians.

On southern regiments it appears that their practice of putting companies together to form regiments resulted in ethnic companies but not whole regiments. Also it has to be remembered that the foreign born population of the North was great than that of the South. The work was in the mills of the north or on the railroads, the south had their on labor pool (slaves). One southern regiment may be raised over an area of several counties. While a single neighborhood of a northern city may produce a whole regiment. The population was in the north.

vojvoda16 Aug 2011 10:48 p.m. PST

Good point about the population density in the North that reminds me of a chart and map I saw in class several years ago the broke down ethinic density across the United States in I think the 1850 or 1870s. I wish I could recal where it was. I prob still have the notes and copy back in North Carolina.
VR
James Mattes

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