"George Lucas does WWII" Topic

YouTube link

New WWII movie.

Nice.

Good idea – now don't drop the ball..

Excellent. I have had the honor and privilege of having met and spoken at some length with a number of veterans of the 332nd Fighter Group back in the late 90s…. these men IMHO were indeed truly American heroes, and their story deserves to not be forgotten by future generations.

Having this film on the silver screen taking fullest advantage of current levels of CGI technology and film making techniques IMHO is to do their tale some greater modicum of justice, and just perhaps inspire a new generation accordingly.

Leland R. Erickson

I thought Tuskegee airmen did a great job of telling this story already…with some of the same actors.

Still, I look forward to seeing it.

Looks good in the trailer- never seen Me262's in combat before…….(cgi but well done!)

I think the state of CGI is ready to do convincing WW2 aeriel combat – so that's a big plus. So far the trailer all looks a bit 'clean' but they can add more detail later. There really is no limit to what they can do nowadays.

The story is not that well known and should be told. I don't know that much about the story – just that there were black fighter pilots and they were some of the best the US produced.

I just hope that we don't get another total hash up. Key areas like cringemaking dialogue, stupid subplots and unnecessary deviation from the facts can ruin an otherwise good film.

Hi

Errr…no they were not the some of the best. Depending on how you define this.

As I said in the movie thread, it looks like a remake of the 80s movie with the same plot turns and promoting the same myths.

Part of the story that never gets told, is that an American volunteer in the Spanish Civil war flying for the Commies was also black, offered his services to the US Army in 41 and was turned down. But it isn't clear if it was because he flew for the Commies or was of color.

Eleanor Roosevelt was a real driving force in this issue, and I don't think SHE got enough credit in the story, but that is another issue.

In fact, it might be thought an act of cynicism to tie these mustangs to close escort knowing it would get them killed versus the proven effective tactics already in place in 43/4.

Rocky

I'm intrigued. How do you define it and how good does it make these black pilots?

I don't know much about the airwar – and I'm sure politics has egged up these pilots' achievements, which is probably a good thing to encourage blacks to achieve more and to serve their country when for a long time they had not be allowed to.

It could well be cynicism to employ them in a more dangerous and less glamourous role.

"Errr…no they were not the some of the best. Depending on how you define this."

OK, I'll bite… define it.

"As I said in the movie thread, it looks like a remake of the 80s movie with the same plot turns and promoting the same myths."

Which "myths?" The one about how they never lost a bomber? Even their CO Benjamin O. Davis, Jr. stated quite emphatically when interviewed that he was "not comfortable with that assertion."

"Part of the story that never gets told, is that an American volunteer in the Spanish Civil war flying for the Commies was also black, offered his services to the US Army in 41 and was turned down. But it isn't clear if it was because he flew for the Commies or was of color."

You and I agree I suspect that history must be studied and taken in context, ergo, the answer is on the evidence of those times, *both.* Remember Carlson? Imagine the trajectory of his career in the USMC had he be been Black?

"Eleanor Roosevelt was a real driving force in this issue, and I don't think SHE got enough credit in the story, but that is another issue."

Agreed 100%.

"In fact, it might be thought an act of cynicism to tie these mustangs to close escort knowing it would get them killed versus the proven effective tactics already in place in 43/4. "

Considering the host of other acts of cynical racism thrown down in the paths of the 332nd both collectively and individually, not at all improbably so. Funny how all that energy directed at "proving" that men of color "couldn't fly" just added to the eventual blowback that is now part of the historical record….

Leland R. Erickson

Hi

As a lad, Benjamin O.Davis jr was a hero of mine and I won't tell that story. When the first movie came out, and before the actor was introduced I KNEW who he was supposed to be.

It cannot be substantiated that they "never", but that is not the issue. The issue is "your job is not to die for your country but to make that other SOB die for his".

The idea of close escort was a known failure at the time, and any assignment of such was to play to the bomber crew. The issue of a mustang unit that did not score well is a different issue. In the case of close escort, their ability to score is already limited. But the MYTH is that they were, for some reason "one of the best". This only applies if you define "one of the best" in some way other than scorirng.

Oh, and I met and interviewed several of the survivors back in the 70s.

I don't remember them being one of the groups that even SAW a Me262, let alone killing one. But I have been told by others that one version of the trailer has them doing so.

But perhaps I was Scarred too badly by "Fly Boys" and hundreds of black Triplanes.

Rocky

Rocky,

you were indeed traumatized by too many black triplanes (and red ones, as was I).

I first learned of Benjamin O. Davis in the second or third grade. He remains one of my personal heroes.

Considering the sheer level of individual and collective discipline and competency that the 332nd pilots had to demonstrate as a matter of course given the exceptional and hostile level of scrutiny and IMHO even treasonous racially-motivated obstructionism they were subjected to as a matter of course by their own command civilian and military, I would characterize them as one of the very best considering the uniquely negative circumstances they were forced to operate under.

There's an old cliche amongst Black Americans that sadly still holds as true now as it did then; you want the job? You have to be twice as good as the best white applicant just to be considered for the job, let alone to get it. I recognize this sad reality having borne witness to it more than once with friends over the years, and with my own wife who is an exceptionally talented human being in her own professional field.

As for the Me 262, I'll get back to you on that, but IIRC one of them did indeed bring one down…

Leland R. Erickson

The only Black American fliers that went to Spain I know of were James Peck and Paul Williams. They had commercial licenses.

Neither was allowed to fly for the Republic because by the time they finished training all foreign fliers had been replaced by Spaniards.

Peck and Williams stayed on in Spain though and served as ground crew. They returned to the US when all international volunteers were withdrawn. As I understand it both men served in the Merchant Marine during WW2.

I have not seen any link between these two men and the Tuskegee airmen.

Bill

Leyland

Interested on the possible 262 downing and how this occurred as a difficult plane to get close to once at operational altitude.

Nice to see the good air action sequences in the trailer including proper sized formations and 262's in flight

"meesa just no sure lucas ganna make a bombad movie any more."

Courtesy of: jar-jar-binks.com/index.jsp

Hi

There were other folks of color, and some were "passing"..but not the issue. There was no commonality between the SCW and the Tuskekee guys.

The point being made was that pilots who flew for the Commies did approach the US and were turned down, some because of this issue.

One side note on this issue is that the first Medal of Honor for a pilot involved a failed attempt in Korea to rescue a downed Navy Pilot who was black.

Grew up in a career military family during the official de-segregation period and there were some hard times with the differences between on base and off base. But that is another story entirely.

In the air, some of the earliest pilots were women and minorities and the later "women and blacks cannot fly" ignored the reality, and made no sense.

I would not mind seeing a "saving private ryan" or even "Pacific" covering the 8th Air Force. I don't think people realize exactly how dangerous that campaign was and it would be nice to see them honored rather than focusing on one group based on race.

Rocky

I have far more anticipation for Peter Jackson's Dambuster remake. Not because I'm racist or anything, it's that I don't have faith in George Lucas's film making abilities anymore. I'll watch it, either way.

I just don't think there are enough modern world war 2 movies being made with big enough budgets. Film makers get the opportunity to tell a genuinely good story and instead we get Pearl Harbor…

Lets hope this movie isn't the Pearl Harbor to the Tora Tora Tora/Red Tails to the Tuskeegee Airmen movies.

I'd love to see a Bridge Too Far redone or a better Battle of the Bulge movie.

Sources mentioning the Me262 shootdowns by Tuskegee airmen:

link

acepilots.com/usaaf_tusk.html

link

link

"Interested on the possible 262 downing and how this occurred as a difficult plane to get close to once at operational altitude."

Yes, and when an aircraft with all the maneuverability of a UPS lorry with a flat tire comes more or less straight past your position and you've enough time to swing your nose across his path while pressing the trigger of your six .50's, well, you get the idea…

Come to think of it, isn't that also how some RAF pilots managed to drop a few of those vaunted Me 262s?

Leland R. Erickson

looks good. Let's hope George Lucas' involvement in the actual script is minimum

Thanks Leland good links.

Interestingly only the Acepilots link indicates some bombers were lost.

I may paint my 1/600 Mustangs as Red tails. One day i may actually have enough B17 for a good size formation.

Apparently Mustang pilots found that by following them the mE262 pilot had to throttle back due to overheating of the engines so eventually he caught up to the raer of them and shot them down

Hi

Nope, not really. There were a lot of engine failures but that isn't the same thing.

Most "shoot downs" were in two ways:

1)the pilot throttles back not knowing there are fighters above him, because he has trouble judging the closing speed with the bomber. And the diving fighter catches up.
2)the design of the turbine itself was primitive and did not like sudden changes in the throttle setting. This was made worse by the throttle system on the prop jobs being a simple lever that adjusted both throttle, boost and mix at the same time(most aircraft ran these systems separately). Thus, gernman pilots were used to just jamming the throttle and going, which would cause the jet to "flame out". Thus, when getting slow in the landing pattern or after slowing up to prevent the overshoot, the ability to break away from the attacker left them vulnerable.

Rocky

"Interestingly only the Acepilots link indicates some bombers were lost."

Benjamin O. Davis Himself stated emphatically that e was not comfortable with the assertion that the Red Tails "never lost a bomber." That said, there is AFAIK little doubt that the loss rate of bombers who had the 332nd covering them was at record lows, hence why the bomber crews began to request the 332nd specifically to fly their escorts.

I expect it's a persistent myth like the Polish cavalry charging the panzers with sabers or the French lost in 1940 'cause everybody knows that the French are such cowards 'cause the German newsreels show all the French POWs (but not the 101,000 German casualties who were also involved in that six week fracas).

Leland R. Erickson

2)the design of the turbine itself was primitive and did not like sudden changes in the throttle setting. This was made worse by the throttle system on the prop jobs being a simple lever that adjusted both throttle, boost and mix at the same time(most aircraft ran these systems separately). Thus, gernman pilots were used to just jamming the throttle and going, which would cause the jet to "flame out".

Apparently pilots converted from bomber aircraft did a lot better with the Me 262 – being more used to being gentle with the engines.

Hi

For them, the issue was a little different, it was, oddly, dealing with the asymmetric power change when they had ONE engine flame out!

Just read a new book focused on the aircraft.

But the other problem was that in combat, they were overrepresented as victims in the dogfight.

Rocky