"Khurasan releases Thirty Years War German infantry" Topic

We are very pleased to finally expand out German/Central European Thirty Years War line with five infantry sets.

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Every effort has been made to assure that the models are dressed and equipped as would German and other Central European foot of the Thirty Years War period. They have the helmet shapes, the distinctive high conical crown on their floppy hats, and the very baggy trousers and short jackets which the troops are shown wearing in period art. We wish to thank Daniel S. for his assistance with these aspects of the range, though any errors in interpretng his insights are ours.

Daniel also very interestingly pointed out that Gustavus Adolphus's orders put in for uniforms often use the same terms in describing uniform cut as do Imperialist uniform requisitions! So the oft-cited differences in uniform cut between Swedes and Germans might not have been as pronounced as modern gamers sometimes think!

Back to the models, they are "large 15s," but are frankly 18mm in size, and are made for use with the most popular "15mm" Mid 17th century models today. They were sculpted by Mike Broadbent and these were painted by Artmaster Studio and we think the chaps have done a brilliant job of bringing these doughty warriors to life!

The pikemen are in sets of twelve, the musketeers in sets of 18.

The first set is the core pike formation and has enough models for three bases/elements of well-protected pikemen plus command. The rationale here is that the smaller infantry regiments of the mid-late war period would be made up of relatively well-protected men (hence the tassts). We hope this is convenient for gamers -- for Field of Glory Renaissance for instance this one pack supplies all the models for the pike block of a "LT" (Later Tercio) in one convenient bag.

The second set is seen as an expansion set for the first, rather less well equipped pikemen (without tassets) to fill in behind the front rankers of larger regiments in the early/mid war period. So continuing the example, for Field of Glory Renaissance one need only buy one of these packs and one of the prior to have the pike element of an "ET" (Early Tercio).

The first of three musketeer sets has the simple short jacket, which has been sculpted with a seam on the sleeve so that the sleeveless buff vest that musketeers sometimes wore can be depicted. One set of these, or the following two sets, would complete either the ET or the LT for FoGR.

Very often the jackets of musketeers show a sort of slashed "wing" on the shoulder. This could possibly have been a holdover decorative flourish from the more flamboyant 16th century, or it could have demonstrated what the schutzenrock (shooting jacket, see below) looked like when the sleeves were buttoned up.

Finally we have what might be the most iconic look of German/Central European musketeers -- the schutzenrock with sleeves unbuttoned. Adopted from the Turks, this fashion may have been adopted as it freed the arms to work the musket more easily, but it's just as likely that it was adopted to look splendid!

In each of the above packs there are enough muskets to make six bases of most popular game systems. One idea is to use one pack for new regiments, which may well have still had all their uniforms in the same cut/style, and veteran regiments can use musketeers from different sets to show how styles of replacement uniforms might have varied.

All available now. The master castings of our next releases, the Arkebusiers zu Pferd (mounted arquebusiers, basically carabiniers), lighter armoured cavalry pistoliers, and field guns with crew, have been received and are with the casters now, hopefully to be received and for sale within about a month and a half. After that, high command and dragoons, and possibly some surprises after that.

All available now, So cry "Jesu Maria" or Gott Mit Uns, as the case may be, and happy gaming!

Very nice figs! Id be so tempted if I didn't have too many projects going on already.

I should point out if I didn't make this clear that these models are suitable for Imperialists, Catholic League, Protestant states, Germans in Swedish armies and possibly even Swedes themselves (see above for that statement), and other peoples such as Moravians and Bohemians, who largely wore German fashions.

Also, there are larger (not auto resized) images of the models on the webstore.

Nice to see some models designed for the TYW and not just 'ECW – work for TYW'.

I'm looking for one manufacturer to collect Germans, Poles, Turks and indians for FOG-R, are you likely to oblige by making all these over time?

Would like to eventually expand these to include Poles from their early/mid 17th C wars (so wings on the saddle, not the back). Others would need to be further down the line.

Very nice figs! Id be so tempted if I didn't have too many projects going on already.

Me too!

Cheers
Mark

I am tempted, tempted! Of course I am also tempted by the new 25mm Harqubus in 25mm by both TAG & Warlord too. Guess I will just have to do both scales.

Great looking figures and a welcome addition! Can't go wrong with Daniel S.'s help! Looking for ward to ordering in the near future.

Once I get my current batch of OGs done, I'll probably get some of these. I especially like the command figures, and Khurasan makes some nice sculpts.

These look great… would be perfect for all types of things…

Tempted, so tempted!

Update – KHurasan I just want you to know that you are taking the food out of my dogs, chickens and Wife's mouth. I do hope that you feel guilty!!!

Tally Ho!

Damn just put in an order now will have to order again once I get my first order of figs from Khurasan.
William

Those are nice. Any word on the Royalist Irish and Covenant conversions?
M

Of course somne decent Muscovites would go down very well,

Tally Ho!

Khurasan;

There's a rumor about that you are considering French under Louis XIV. If true, would these be a continuation of the TYW "project" and suitable for the period from Rocroi to 2nd Dunes (Franco-Spanish Wars), or would these be the later wars of Louis like the Franco-Dutch War or the Nine Years War (League of Augsberg)?

Either option would be excellent, but the Nine Years War era is already very well covered in 15/18mm, the Franco-Dutch War is only specifically covered by one company (although there are other figures that can be made to work), and the Franco-Spanish Wars are covered only by a few Donnington figures, a bare handful of the OG15's TYW range (and most of those are mixed in other packs), and a few of Testudo's figures in cassock.

Personally, I would love to see correct figures produced for a comprehensive French army of the 1635 to 1659 period for the Franco-Spanish Wars, as this would cover some oft-neglected armies.

Bill
Sir William the Aged
warsoflouisxiv.blogspot.com

Had pondered making Later Louis XIV for a while but ended up making generic 1680s troops instead. They may be modified (add shoulder ribbons, move cuffs up) to make French as well at some point.

Thats not to say I won't make TYW French for the big 15 range eventually, love their fashions, but they will have to wait a few steps -- after Germans come Spanish to serve as allies….

Just from pictures alone, this certainly appears to be the beginnings of an excellent range.

So how did French TYW differ in dress from Germans? I know the French used a lot of German troops on the Rhine, they must have had a lot in common.

Delbruck;

Many of the French would, in fact, be very similar to the generic (or German) troops of the era. However, there were some specific differences depicted in many of the paintings and engravings of the period. The French are often depicted in very blousy pants referred to as culottes, sometimes gathered below the knee with ribbons or garters, other times depicted hanging loose, and they appear to have been laced down the outside of the leg. The French are also frequently depicted wearing cassocks over their other garments (picture the cassocks worn by the Three Musketeers in most depictions). Many of the garments that I've seen in artwork are virually identical to the new Khurasan Germans, but with more slashed sleeves, more ribbons and plumes, and somewhat more decorative. The one thing that most French will have in common will be a white sash, either worn over the shoulder or around the waist, white being the accepted French field sign. Here are a few depictions from the net:

From George Gush's "Renaissance Armies" book:

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And from individual plates in the NYPL's Vinkhuijzen Collection:

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If you don't already have it, I would also recommend Stephane Thion's excellent book, "French Armies of the Thirty Years War", published by LRT Editions. There are some excellent period engravings and artwork depicting the French troops of the late TYW through Rocroi.

Bill
Sir William the Aged
warsoflouisxiv.blogspot.com

Just could not resist so ordered a bunch of the German Infantry, they just are fantastic.

And I second the vote for some French, not the Nine Years War as that I think will be done beautifully by Clibanri and Pendraken in 10mm the first of the range are out and they are fantastic.

William

Bill, thank you for the information on the French. The summary of clothing differences was very useful. I really like the look of the musketeer in the last link, although the figure does look very close to Khurasan pack KM2605. These figures just need some plumes. In 18mm many of the differnces would appear to be minor, although a few specialty packs of French TYW would undoubtedly be welcome.

And I second the vote for some French, not the Nine Years War as that I think will be done beautifully by Clibanri and Pendraken in 10mm the first of the range are out and they are fantastic.

Front Rank and Dixon make excellent ranges of 25/28mm late 17th century figures. It appears Pendraken will have an excellent range of 10mm. Many people do not game in 10mm & 25mm. There are some reasonably decent 15mm ranges, but there are no excellent ranges such as those mentioned above in 10mm or 25mm.

Actually, people underestimate the regional/national differences in dress and equipment in this period. French troops would have looked quite different from Imperials, for instance, in virtually every aspect of their outfit. They had distinctive cuts in their legwear, jacket length and cut, and headwear, very much liking a style of hat similar to the montero but larger and more exaggerated in shape, called by them the "boukinkan" after Buckingham. French infantry were also more likely to wear a cassock.

I'm not sure why you think that the French were more likely to wear as cassock given that it was standard issue among the German troops for decades.

Whatever the national differences may have been (and I am sure there were many) wargamers usually have to make due with what is availible, and often the choices are very limited. I think few people will complain about too many choices though.

I'm not sure why you think that the French were more likely to wear as cassock given that it was standard issue among the German troops for decades.

Perhaps because one sees period images of French infantry in cassocks and only rarely German troops?

But in any event that's interesting, and news to me. Was this Protestant German infantry, influenced by the Swedes, who I know were issued cassocks?

Well period images are fraught with problems as they tend to show current fashions even when depicting historical events. For example Snayers detailed and in many ways highly accurate painting of Lützen portrays the Imperial army of the later date at which it was painted rather than in the military dress of 1632.

Written sources are far more reliable and these show that the Germans made extensive use of the cassock, in German called the "Schützenrock". It's mentioned both in military manuals and as part of the equipment issued to the troops. The Schützenrock had probably been introduced to the Germans in the Netherlands were it was a common part of soliders clothing on both sides.

The Swedes made little use of the cassock as it was an expensive piece of clothing and Gustavus instead prefered the elusive "Hungarian jacket" a garment which Wallenstein also began to issue to his men at the same time as Gustavus (in 1626) At the same time the Leugists were still issuing Schützenrocken to their musketeers and calivermen so the two styles clearly coexisted.

Daniel;

We may be talking about apples and oranges here, at least a bit. I'm familiar with the Schutzenrock, and it is clearly shown on the new figures from Khurasan. However, there are many period depictions of French troops wearing the cassock, which is depicted as a single-piece garment similar to a poncho or Mexican serape, that is a neckhole only and it simply drapes down the back and front (possibly tied at the sides). Such a garment has also been depicted by the illustrations in Gush's book and by Guiseppe Rava on the Testudo musketeers, based (I believe) on period written descriptions.

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I don't doubt that the cassock as described was used in other parts of Europe, indeed it has been depicted before on many figures and illustrations, but it would seem to be the closest thing to an item of uniform issuance to native French troops of the period. As France fielded a very mixed army at this period (particularly after assimilating Bernhard's corps), it is possible that this item would only apply to native French, I do not know and haven't seen a definitive source. In my own French army of the period, I have reserved figures in cassock for the native regiments only, as well as culottes and boukinkans. My other regiments would be interchangeable with almost any nationality.

Bill
Sir William the Aged
warsoflouisxiv.blogspot.com

Bill,
It is the same garment with slight variations. The apperance will depend on wether it was worn over or under the bandolier and other equipment. Testudo has modelled the gear underneath while the Khurasan has the gear on top. The poncho like apperance is what you get when you undo the sides (which were closed with ties, hooks or buttons) and do not use the arms which were worn draped over the shoulder. This has the added effect of making the arms a wee bit hard to spot on artwork as they blend in with the cloth of the rear panel of the garment.

In the riches version of the cassock the arms are not sewn shut but rather close with buttons. This makes it possible to unbutton the arms and leave them open or to button them together with the front and rear panels to form what is effectively a circular cloak.

The artwork in Gush is without a doubt the worst part of the work and contains numerous errors which will mislead the casual reader. If you are familiar with the originals it becomes very hard to understand how the artist arrived at the interpretations in the book. For example in the Swedish section the pluderhose in the orginal drawings have suddenly become the lower part of a long coat in the books images of the soliders of Erik XIV. A rare_Danish_burgonet with a nasal bar is suddenly labled as a typical Swedish helmet and so on.

Thank you for the clarification Daniel, excellent as always! I have found other period engravings that more clearly illustrate what you have described, as well as a simpler design of French tabard or casoque without sleeves. I think either would probably be correct.

I also agree that the line art is the biggest shortcoming with George's book, but one must put it in perspective. Before that book there were very few sources available to the English-speaking wargamer, and more than a few miniatures companies based their designs on those illustrations. I think George got much of it right, but it all got transferred to 3D sculpts, right or wrong, and we lived with them for many years. Its perhaps one of the reasons that I'm passionate about seeing someone do "correct" French, as I believe you are regarding the Baltic nations. My first "French" army many, many years ago was made up of Hinchcliffe ECW figures with a few stray Lammings mixed-in. We can do so much better now, and I wish someone would!

Regards as always,

Bill
Sir William the Aged

Great looking figures--how well do they mix with OG15 30YW?