"What is with all the requests for "complete" lines of minis?" Topic

First of all, I've been on both sides of this arguement so I can see the logic on both sides.

Anyhow, the more I think about it the more I am beginning to question the classic definition of a complete line.

Personally, I think the complete line concept is a hold over from classic wargaming. Even in scifi minis gaming, most games are really fought between two WW2 style forces tricked out in scifi drag. This is where the question of complete or incomplete comes in.

People consider a range imcomplete if it does not have all the familiar trapping of an earthly combat force, but does an alien or future human force need all these?

Considering that scifi is supposed to be futuristic and alien, isn't there room for military thinking in other directions. Aliens and future warriors might just fight in different ways or use hardware that makes some of our modern weapons obsolete.

A good chunk of scifi gamers play in DIY universes using generic rules sets. Given this, why not customize your aliens to fight in new ways to compensate for the perceived gaps in their arsenal.

I challenge the perception, a perception that I pnce held, that ranges without all the common hardware are incomplete. Perhaps they just fight different or their weapons allow for the same sort of tactical options without needing specialized equipment.

-Eli

Most people want combat troops, as well as a few command and support troops (heavy weapons figures), especially for humans, or human-like figures.

well speaking for me and my friends most of the ranges are complete – what do you need for your force in scifi 15mm?
command figures(commanders and FT leaders,medic,comms) some regular grunts sculpts in 15mm 3-5 sculpts is enough, some special weapons RPG,SAW maybe UGL, and some HW weapons but if you are constructing Airmobile or Mechanized force you dont need them-HMG/Autocannon,heavy beam or heavy AT weapon and you are set most of the ranges have this heck even Control battalion from Khurasan is complete and it have only two packs.

Eli,

Sometimes it isn't just aliens or high tech forces that prompt those discussions. I've played a couple of games the past week with the HOF Post Apoc Survivor minis. I have a dozen of them painted, and converted a Khurasan Rockjumper as a support vehicle.

They are fantastic minis. But as a relatively conventional human force – could you really visualize a large army of these guys without any heavy weapon or command troopers?

In other cases I think it works just fine. Take Rebel's new Earthforce Drop Troopers. Great minis, but nothing but riflemen (for now). So what am I doing to make an army out of them? I'm assigning Rebel's CAT robots as the squad-level heavy weapon support.

And my collection off RAFM Aslan minis? Also, no heavy weapon troopers. So I'm going to give them freestanding heavy weapons and simply mount them together onto larger bases.

On the other hand, there are ranges that are more "complete" and obviously sell well. Felids, Crusties, Krystrial, Protolene Khanate, and Scourge all come to mind. The attraction of lines with heavy weapon/commmand minis probably has to do with what rules are being played. Most rules seem to encourage building units with many rifles and a few support weapons.

Chris K.

As an example – The Timonids from Khurasan. Big nasty alien with big, futuristic looking guns. One pack, five figs including a leader type.

Can this force be build with just that? I would say yes.

Maybe Timonid guns are the equivelant of heavy weapons that can be fired in rapid fire or powered up for a support weapon level output?

Even if you didn't give them the "power up" blast, a heavier base weapon, spewing out high energy fire would certainly close the gap in effectiveness. sure they aren't firing out massive amounts of fire, but what they hit the definitely kill.

-Eli

I suspect that the complete nature of the lines goes more to what is being done with said miniatures.

Skirmishers, then yes a complete line could be 5-10 miniatures.

Larger battles would prefer at least 10 poses, with officers/NCOs/special or heavy weapons, vehicles, etc.

If you are of the mind set for a handful of guys for short games then you would be more willing to accept a smaller line option.

I am thinking that a handful of poses with NCO's is a good start either way.

For me, about the only ones that are complete are the GZG NAC and NI troopers, with a smattering of extras for some of the others.

Sadly, the UNSC hardshells are being ignored (a shame really, since I like the look of these very much), but their light troops are filling out nicely.

Rebel also has some support troops for their Earth Force Marines.

Will have to see how the new 15mm Denizen-ish troops fare with Eureka, but the ones shown look promising, if a little bored.

GZG NAC and NI lack Power armor !!!
Line is never completed without Power armors !!!
:>

I want 3 things in line:
- troopers with basic gun (3+ )
-command figure
- SAW/support gunner

I can live with these alone, as i can make combat squads and command squads with the basic start miniatures.

Thats true with two sets of Naga from CMG, but its doable with only one set of Snakemen (Asgard ? ) from them(well of course i would buy few packs of any other Snakemen troops but Ive bought some packs and will build platoon force just from these 5 minis we have now).

Of course what i really want are power armoured figures.
Best served in similar fashion to Khurasan ones
Corpses and hands /weapons sprue !!!!
But unfortunately they have to sell really bad.. nobody wants to make more of them ;(

Token aliens are of no interest to me. That is one of the reasons I hardly ever bought from Reaper Minis and other companies.

Unless the setting is DS9, B5 or an intergalactic conference, I see very little use to have single figures from dozens of unrelated species all in one place.

Border wars would be expected to normally involve two or three different dominant species, depending on how their territories touch one another.

I'm not saying that every alien species shold have lots of all-too-predictable specialized units like we foresee future humans having (infantry, armored vehicles, etc.), but each alien range made should have several poses of each race and to avoid monotony, some sort (I'm NOT saying many) of variety in weapons between each of their "units" (perhaps just a couple types, even if all they have are infantry units).

One of the few reasons why I enjoyed the Gungan resistance battle in Phantom Menance is how the Gungan used unique weaponry and unit types, as would be expected of an Alien race.

Example:

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More:

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Dan
TMP link
TMP link

Eli great discussion. I am with you on this one.

Complete= enough troop type variety to make for interesting forces.

Definitely a worthy discussion and some good points Eli

I think there's room for both Mid-tech grunts with SAWs and RPGs etc, plus hi tech wallahs, human or alien with powerful multi-purpose/tasking weaponry, bot and drone support.

Perhaps they just fight different or their weapons allow for the same sort of tactical options without needing specialized equipment.

I dont disagree but we do need to be careful. Why careful? Well IMO a rifle only squad, no matter how super duper the rifle – does not present the same tactical challenges or character on the tabletop as one with SAWS, Gauss Sniper Rifles, RPGs etc.

Here's my previous thoughts:

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Cheers
Mark

Mark,

Good points there. I would say that a force that does away with what we consider conventional warfare will find itself subject to new challenges that other forces do not.

-Eli

All I can say to that is: "Biotics!"

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Cheers
Mark

Certainly when pitting two alien psyker armies against each other figure line completeness in general becomes an irrelevant issue.

What does a "Complete" line of miniatures mean?

That really is the question.

To most, in this context, it means a line of miniatures that has all the tactical options filled.

-Eli

I like to see mortars and crews, and/or light salvo rocket launchers and crews too.

Of course, integral squad-level aerial drones can replace both, and are probably more accurate too.

Every futuristic infantry squad should have direct aerial drone support, provided by a minimum of two drones, and preferably 3 – 4 back-packable models.

Ground-based drones are advised too, since they provide another thing for the enemy to worry about.

IMHO there is a serious need for unique character models… we have some but the majority these days tend to be clones of the Serenity crew…

heck even Control battalion from Khurasan is complete and it have only two packs.

They have been a huge success so more are being made.

Dude, your stuff is so awesome you could produce pretty much anything and have it be a massive success…

Well, the Cnidarians didn't do so well (I like them, but the whole overlord fluff kind of limits the number that seem reasonable to put on the table).

Mass Effect's weapons show how future tech might change how weapons are used. Ammo has become so small as to be considered irrelevant, with waste heat a big issue. But a bigger gun will dissipate heat faster, so there's room for a SAW (in the game there isn't). Shields are also common so close combat is a frequent possibility.

Guns can fold up to take little space (Starship Troopers the novel was an inspiration), so soldiers can actually choose from a variety of weapons. Given the tech I would simply say that guns would have different modes rather than being needed to be carried as separate weapons. Of course this doesn't "look" right, especially with slugthrower-type weapons.

What personally annoys me is the proliferation of female "soldier" miniatures with pistols instead of assault rifles. You just can't do anything with that outside of PA/zombie scenarios unless you go the biotics route (and why are all Rebel Minis Infiltrators only armed with pistols?).

I was under the impression all "Soldier" miniatures *were* Female, they just look the same as Males under their Uniform :O

Ben.

Nah, you can always recognize a scifi miniature of a female trooper by the fact that (were it an accurate portrayal of an actual trooper) she wears tightly form-hugging armour (as opposed to males) and has high-heeled combat boots

This is of course the science fiction equivalent of chainmail bikini belowed of fantasy barbarian ladies. Style before practicality!

Levity aside, I prefer a "complete" line because I tend to like playing "battle scale" games (say 30+ minis on board per side) as opposed to really small skirmishes. In such games, it makes to have at least some heavy support as well as squad support, and typically you'll also be wanting some form of troop transport as a minimal vehicle presence.

All of my 15mm sci-fi gaming is done at company level i.e. 100+ figures a side.

At that level, hundreds of personal weapon armed infantry running around look a lot like the first few battles in Starship Troopers, and generally they get creamed in the same way too!

I agree that futuristic infantry could be armed with much more powerful personal weapons that we have currently, but if you apply that logic to support weapons, then they would be there too: just even more powerful. And why wouldn't you up-power the support weapons if you could.

Support weapons (and they could be all vehicle mounted) allow a much wider range of tactics to be employed. Indirect fire can be used (mortars); bases of fire etc.

Lampyridae, wht not take the next step; if ammunition isn't an issue for whatever reason, one could assume that the extra radiators and heat exchangers to allow full auto fire don't add significant weight. Now every rifleman effectively has a SAW as and when he needs one, so you don't need a separate miniature. Add smart semi-guided munitions, and every gun is accurate enough to be a sniper rifle – no need for designated marksman or sniper team miniatures either.

One miniature with a backpack can be your medic or radio man, or you can assume that long-range communications are handled by the entire squad in combination and a separate radio man isn't necessary – or just assume that the long-range comms gear isn't so bulky as to be visible on the miniature.

Heavy fire support can be handled by drones – remote-controlled or autonomous – or the power-armoured guys (in fact, I tend to think that anything smaller than an LMG is a waste of a power suit, myself).

I'm actually considering this, as the range I'm painting at the moment consists of riflemen, sergeants, officers, radio men and medics. The specialist options are limited to, in modern temrs, SAW gunners, flamers and SMGs, along with mortar teams and guys with melee weapons, pistols and shotguns.

Female figures are my pet peeve. There should be more of 'em and they shouldn't look like pin-up girls.

Sculptors who want to see how to do female figures RIGHT could do no better than to look at Peter Pig's female Hardened Militia figures, IMO.

Shawn.

Look at the Blue Moon 15mm Aliens line. You have some factions with only commands, others with just line troops. You have some factions with one pack of figures, others multiple packs. It is a weird mix of releases.

I'd like a consistent line with more the just one option within a faction. And it doesn't have to be any specific order of battle. Start with a factions basic troops and whatever they do for command and control. They follow that up support units. These can be heavy weapons, flanking forces, armor, or whatever exotic thing.

I don't need a complete line where every faction has every type of weapon system. But, if it is associated with rules, every faction must have some counter for every other faction. If it is a line that is just out there, there needs to be more than just some random unit of infantry.

According to Dr. Ron Arkin (director of the Georgia Tech Robotics Lab, and inventor of most of the Robotic Combat drones that are currently in use – That is ARMED Combat Drones – and head of the DARPA Panel on future Drone development and a member of several other military technology panels) the Military wants to do away with specialized weapons by the 2020s.

Already there are weapons systems that will allow a very compact multi-barreled rapid fire assault rifle that could fill in the SAW role, and carry a limited about of heavier caliber ammunition as well, in addition to integral grenade launcher (You may have already seen the grenade ammunition in the new 30mm Selectable Range Grenade system – can't recall the name of the thing). And sniper duties would be possible with a new DARPA Program that is developing smart ammunition at the .50 caliber level that wouldn't require a stationary, long-barreled, scoped and stabilized weapon.

And… Drones… LOTS of Drones that are as or more numerous than the human soldiers, capable of a variety of roles. They too would be multi-role, mounting a selection of weapons.

And the NLOS Future Combat Systems program has morphed into the Ground Combat Vehicle program that hopes to eliminate 75% of the crews from Tanks and Armored vehicles and ALL of the crew from Artillery Vehicles. So a Main Battle Tank would be one or two guys and an AI, and an Artillery Battery would be three self-propelled guns capable of lobbing multiple rounds from each gun that all arrive on target at the same time (controlled by the soldiers who have the authority to call in a fire mission).

The New Unmanned Combat Air Vehicles will replace the Stealth "Fighter" with smaller vehicles capable of carrying just as much ordinance, and that can fly both faster and slower, allowing the vehicle to reach its firing position, and then to get even closer in to drop ordinance (or shoot with a 30mm Gatling Gun).

Now, this is all 2020s stuff.

If you add "Sci-Fi" to that, then you are adding things like (multiple) Grav assisted Aerial Drones for each human soldier (probably carrying the Support Weapons and having insane Sniping capabilities) capable of acting on their own initiative (but ultimately taking orders from their human Soldier/NCO).

The drones would be replacing your combat soldier, and the Combat Soldier would become the equivalent of an NCO that controlled multiple teams of drones, each with both direct and indirect fire capabilities.

So an "APC", would likely carry three humans, and eight to twelve drones.

The APC would probably be AI operated, but would probably have a human "crew" Just in Case (See Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex Episode 2 for a non-grav "AI-Tank." It has just one crewman and an AI support. All of the Tachikomas and Fuchikomas are the same (but they are "Light Tanks" and HIGHLY maneuverable).

Artillery would be Persistent High Altitude Platforms (PHAP: This is a current system in testing in Afghanistan. It is a semi-rigid neutral buoyancy airship that operates at Altitudes up to 20miles). These Platforms would be capable of dropping HEAVY Artillery on things.

For lighter, faster response Indirect fire, each drone would have a 40mm system similar to the selectable range grenade system (again whose name I can't recall) that was usable in either direct or indirect fire roles.

In the Indirect fire role, it would use GPS coordinates to steer itself to the target before exploding at a predetermined altitude or near a predetermined target (if the target is moving).

Slightly heavier Indirect fire could be called from a system like the Metal-Storm, but in vertical mounted tubes from the APC (since it has room from the removal of the normal crew), again firing smart shells that steer themselves to the target by inertial or GPS guidance (The PHAP would provide GPS by direct LOS communication in the event of area jamming).

But… As was said in the opening post (to paraphrase):

People tend to play as if they are fighting WWII dressed up in Sci-Fi drag, and not an actual combat as it would be played out using future combat systems.

All one needs to do is subscribe to the DARPA Military newsletter to get an idea of what the Military wants in the next ten years.

And it is FAR beyond what anything I have seen from miniatures or rules companies… Never mind that they complete their "WWII in Sci-Fi Drag" lines (Or Napoleonics in Sci-Fi Drag if we are talking Warhammer 40K. Geez that game is strange. I watched it played today, and they had soldiers with guns all over the table. But instead of shooting each other, they all rushed to the middle of the table to begin stabbing, cutting each other with Chain Swords and crushing things with grotesque Power Fists. Aside from the bizarre weapons, it seemed like a Napoleonic Game: Shoot one or two times at the enemy, and then change in with bayonets)

@Alex – Someday, my friend….some day.

Seriously though, I do not see why combat in this form could be simulated to some extent or another. Especially when trying to do alien invasion scenarios. Even if you didn't want to make the humans all nifty, why not do so with the aliens they are fighting?

-Eli

If you're looking for that kind of war then you'll see it in Tomorrow's War. IIRC, the US Army in that rules set is very heavy on robots and drones. In in the fluff, the USMC looks down on this practice and derisively call them the "Marionette Corps".

The squad/platoon structure looks like it too- each squad has only a few humans with the rest of the unit being drones of some sort or another.

Anyone read "Old Man's War?" The weapons there were multi function and using nano technology would actually create munitions on the fly from a base substance. They could fire either kinetic rounds, explosive rounds, grenades, rockets, or even flames directly from the same barrel, all controlled by the users brain.

Tgunner, yes I have seen Tommorrow's War, and the presumption of things like the MArines looking down on a decisive technology reminds me of the arbitrariness of Warhammer 40K.

They just "decide" that a race is going to behave some way without examining the actual assumptions made, nor their consequences, and how those would play out.

In this case, the Author of Tomorrow's War has Decided (Rather arbitrarily) that the Marines are just going to eschew a technology for some rather tenuous reason.

This arbitrary assumption means that the Marines will have the consequences of losing their more valuable fighters at a higher rate than will the services that use remote drones. This will slowly make them a less effective force.

It will also mean that people will be less likely to join the Marines, and that if drafted, morale will be lower because the troops will know that they could have "Been in the Army where they are less likely to get killed."

Then, there are the many things that I can't get into, that Dr. Ron Arkin has detailed at almost every talk he has given at Conferences on cybernetics and robotics over the last year. His point is that humans are necessarily inferior to drones, and will make mistakes based upon our cognitive architecture (and the ease with which it is fooled by its architecture or tricked by emotions) that drones will not make.

This also flies in the face of modern reality where it is the Navy (and consequently Marines) that have a policy to replace as many of their combat troops with drones as possible by 2030 (before the Army does, which has not made as far reaching a determination).

This thread has the makings of a fantastic debait on sci-fi wargaming theories and miniature collections but for the life of me i would not know were to start, you could literally write a small book on this topic…

Assuming laws of physics as currently known will be upheld, you'll always be getting more bang from a bigger gun. However it's a completely different issue if they will be carried by infantrymen, robots or drones, or indeed if in some strategic situations their deployment will be come completely counterproductive.

As to the miniatures, having a "complete line" doesn't preclude making heavy or squad support weapons drone- or powered infantry-carried.

Lampyridae, wht not take the next step; if ammunition isn't an issue for whatever reason, one could assume that the extra radiators and heat exchangers to allow full auto fire don't add significant weight. Now every rifleman effectively has a SAW as and when he needs one, so you don't need a separate miniature. Add smart semi-guided munitions, and every gun is accurate enough to be a sniper rifle – no need for designated marksman or sniper team miniatures either.

As tnjrp says, there's always the option to carry a heavier weapon with more firepower. The rifle infantry may have 4kg SAWs but one guy in every section has an 8kg HMG equivalent.

In Starship Troopers, Rico was issued with nukes as a "section" weapon. We now have those range-detonating grenade launchers showing up as suppression weapons too. What if in the future, SAWs and LMGs are just ditched altogether for those kinds of weapons? Our modern-and-WWII focused brains still need to see that kind of a weapon in a squad to see it as being "real."

As for Tomorrow's War, the Marines could simply be loaded with wetware. Drones have their own vulnerabilities such as hacking or EMP. Or radiation – the more sophisticated the processor, the more vulnerable it is to ionising radiation. These assumptions might change, but the main point is that both organic and mechanical forces have their limits.

I think variety of weapons makes it more interesting. Having 10 identical weapons in 10 identical squads would be simple remember, but really rather dull as a game…

This thread inspired me to look at some different product lines, both complete and incomplete. Here are my thoughts on making playable armies from each:

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Chris K.

This does invite the question of, "are miniatures gamers becoming spoiled?".

I ask this tongue in cheek but, really I recall a time (I call it yesterday) when I happily converted miniatures either physically or statistically to account for gaps in the lines.

Some simple conversions can be achieved by adding a heavier barrel to a SAW gunner and a power pack – BAM instant plasma gunner.

Plastic rod and some green stuff glued to backs and can equip entire squads with disposable buzzbombs or smart rockets.

And don't forget integral grenade launchers or selective smart ammo. "Alright troopers, set your rifles to HE and lets storm that bunker!" Heck, the Israelis use something similar on ther tank ammo right now.

-Eli

It should also be pointed out that aliens like the Zorg-kitted Mangalores do not really need support weapons, or at least not squad-level ones. The ZF-1s eliminate any need for SAWS, organic rocket launchers, etc… it does all these things.

And honestly, when I ask for more completeness in a range, it's because I like those sculpts, and will pay to obtain more of them. This isn't a bad thing.

Maybe I'm just a recent convert from 28mm, but something I think people have forgotten the modeling aspect of his hobby. Lets use those Ygs figures as an example… you want a sniper? Drill a hole in the barrel and put in a piece of wire so it has a extended barrel! Instant Sniper variant! You want a squad support cannon? Do the same, then just build up the barrel a bit with some green stuff and run a little tube from the butt of the gun to a little backpack or something to make it look like it has an external power source! Hell, if you want a missile launcher, simply convert the guy with the lowered pistol so it looks like he has one on standby! Just roll out a tube, stick it along the length of his arm, and carve a little detail into it or just take a piece from another line and modify both to fit! Don't think of it as an incomplete line… think of it as a chance to convert something cool and unique!

@Psychosama – Amen! Conversions are fun and can go along way in filling gaps. To expect companies on shoe string budgets to cater to your every whim is really not realistic.

Support their products and they will deliver more. they cannot afford to throw out big ranges on spec alone.

-Eli

There needs to be variety. I agree that it need not follow the force organization of a near-future human force, but variety is very important from a gaming perspective, a modeling perspective and a customization perspective.

I'd also like to chip in with a renewed call for alien civilians and non-combat troops.

I completely agree that there needs to be variety. It bothers me to see all of my 6mm guys standing in the same pose.

It makes me want to shout "AT EASE!" to some of them. They won't listen though, they never do.

And, for configurable weapons, it will probably require a different operating stance to use the different configurations. A higher recoil 30mm integral grenade launcher or fully automatic fire is going to require a more braced stance that firing bursts or single shots from a small caliber assault weapon. And sniping is going to require an "Aiming" stance of some sort.

Oh! OH!

AND What Wellspring says!

I want some aliens that are A-Li-EN!

Not just some humans in a rubber suit, or with a funny head.

Even the Giger-esque aliens are just a guy in a rubber suit.

How about some Eosapiens that are "advanced" and not primitive.

Or, in an old book of Aliens (Barlow's Guide??? I don't recall the name of it, I saw it when I was young) they had this alien that was a cone that moved by rolling atop a ball that it sat upon.

That might actually work if it could inflate and deflate that ball to conform to different surfaces (or make the ball sticky so that it could climb sufaces).

Or Niven's Outsiders, that are basically a stick with a bunch of tentacles.

Or Pierson's Puppeteers. Why has no one made any Puppeteers???

I did egglpants with tentacles. Does that count?

-Eli

Alex Reed 26 Jul 2011 6:34 p.m. PST:

Even the Giger-esque aliens are just a guy in a rubber suit.

Well, they pretty much had to be at the time of Alien…

Or, in an old book of Aliens (Barlow's Guide??? I don't recall the name of it, I saw it when I was young) they had this alien that was a cone that moved by rolling atop a ball that it sat upon.

That would be a Polarian. Not one of the most likely-to-have-evolved-naturally alien types in the Barlowe's Guide to Extraterrestrials tho if you ask me.

I dislike repeating poses within platoon. In my 20 mm WW2 Germany battalion every figure is different, so in 15 mm I want at least variable platoon. I love some Blue Moon sculpts, esp ALN-111 and ALN-117, have some, but I would never invest my money to build whole (company) force because of lack of variety in figures. Sorry, I am just such.

The more sets, the more probably player will buy them as big force. Single set push customer into single buy. I would bet that it is logarithm relation: 1 set-1 bought/customer, 3 sets – 9 bought/customer. F.ex. I bough platoon of CMG Naga, but I still wait for more Nagas before I paint them and expand them into company. I am sure that sell of Astagar and Ygs would skyrocket if they would be expanded with two more sets.

I concur with Well spring. No line of alien specie is truly complete without civilians (diplomat, leader, traders, technicians, workers, women, children), because only civilian aliens allow me for playing all kind of scenarios (including sci-fi Ambush Alley). It is strange that there is no dedicated (suitable to military) civilians pack, as such packs would sell well without big variety. One figure could be repeated many times with different painting (as civilians may differ with colours of cloth), and people tend to use many civilians (if they have such possibility at all).

Unfortunately I still will have to wait years for civilian Khurasan Felids and CMG Naga. :(