"Why no avian aliens?" Topic

Dave,

There is no reason other than I haven't made any yet :)

I get the feeling I'm going to be sculpting more avian aliens, if for no other reason than to see if they can be done.

-Eli

Space Parrots!

Upon hearing the suggestion, I WANT.

I've owned a parrot before… wonderful creatures. They'd be fairly easy to sculpt (most of the feathers are rather smoothed 'down', leaving the job up to the painter in 15mm…) and they'd be great fun to paint a variety of colors!

Personally I'm feeling there are two ways to let them use equipment:
Give them real wings, and have them use their legs and beak to manipulate various tools and weapons worn on a harness (or possibly even as 'boots').

I've seen a parrot use its legs as hands, and use its beak to carry and manipulate objects. I have no doubt that one could design tools that a parrot shaped creature could use very effectively.

Alternatively, give them 'toned down' wings that are really just feathery arms, allowing them to use those to manipulate objects.

I'm feeling that they'd be fun to use as Space Pirates… har har har.

If you want them to use weapons/tech they need hands, so they loose their wings, they won't grow an extra set of limbs.

Why? Could be 6 limbed creatures that evolved similarly to 4 limbed earth ones.

Space Skeksis perhaps?

I've got concept artists working on designs for an alien species based on Phorusrhacidae, aka Terror Birds. 10 foot tall, flightless, and carnivorous birds.

However, a problem is in making such designs not feel like just a guy in the rubber suit, or a direct copy of some other Earth animal with an extra arm attached. To me, both cases are as bad as furries and other designs that people consider horrible.

Sadly, this will be for my own scifi game line, with details and kit that make them look like they came out of say, the Killzone setting. No idea on when I'll start the mastering process on them.

@Turtle – What scale are you going with? I have considered the terror bird angle as such animals are already ground-based and more robust than other birds.

@28mm Man – As much as I love them, the skeksis are one of the most duplicated freaky bird creatures. D&D and World of Warcraft have used "copies" of them.

-Eli

Eli,

There in is the head you are trying to hit, the trick is to find the right rock.

As I see it you have a series of choices to make;

(I agree the Skeksis are often duplicated)

first would be up or down…and I would say this is the most important design step…do they primarily run or fly…if it were me sitting at the think tank table I would send out anyone who simply says "both"…pick one

flyer…then the bird aspect is clear beyond relying on a few key features, which as you note will draw Skeksis commonalities…the flyer would say "hey I'm a bird type" (or bat type if you go that way)

runner…then you gain another set of options, and must make a few choices to draw the eye back to "hey I'm a bird type"…stepping far from our common Earth reference point for birds will only further muddy the water IMO…so an ax beak for example gains instant face points "bird" as well as "oh crud" because we know these guys were top flight predators and big…regardless if yours are that big, the vision is set

*****

So if a flyer then focus on flying, design the elements to fit a flying base…even a short flight stem…the open wing hover for example

As far as extra limbs…it is a game, if you want extra limbs then add them :) If you want to keep the symmetry the same then I would consider the lower limbs gaining vastly more flexibility, length, and specialization of the feet/toes/fingers…forgo the common claws for dexterous digits with pads and nails rather than claws, add a technology raptor claw to use as a sword if desired

Picture the end user, as it is your desire for a gaming miniature, putting hands on…I see all the bird aliens (Avliens) as floating on short flight stems to show flight without being too tall, with a couple sword hooks or rifle or pistol/sword hook

If you want to insert alien for alien sake, especially when looking at 15mm smallness, then a weird head/beak/eye arrangement could fix this quickly

*****

The runner bird design is a bit easier to work with and it touching the ground but you lose some options for birdness unless you choose a classic ground bird shape or go rubber suit guy with a bird head.

This ax beak for example (Titanis walleri)

This one has arms enough to develop a decent set of arms and bingo bango, Alvian.

Leave a few feathery bits along the shoulders and upper arms and they will not look so much stuck on.

Extend the fingers like bat wings with only partial membrane if any; combine these three

Give the Avlien a gun or whatever…load up some equipment…zing.

Hmmmm, in our Rogue Trader game we hired some Kroot. They became known as either "The Murderkeets" Or "Battlebudgies". We got a real Avian vibe from the Kroot.

28mm man beat me to Space Skeksis. Jon, please make these. Imagine the ongoing war between the Avian and Felid races. Besides, no race would look more natural using "Chicken Walker" Mecha.

On a side note. Jon, thanks you for making TRULY ALIEN aliens. There are enough humans in various degrees of armor out there. You, you go on and make wasp men or Shark-headed troopers, or PLANTS. Thank you.

To avoid the 'guy in rubber suit' look, have bird-like legs, i.e. the thighs hidden under the skin / feather, so that what appears to be 'knees' are angled 'back to front' (as I remember, old Irish tales had women with such legs?).

Skeksis don't have room enough for a large brain, and the eyes on the sides are not good for manipulating tools -no stereoscopy.
Chicken late stage embryos (can't find a better image at the moment) have eyes to the front, a large head (still without much brain, unfortunately) and a very "Wells' Martian" look

Many of Brother Joseph's designs, while pleasant, are still too 'humanoid': why is the Crab, for instance, bipedal? For aliens with an exoskeleton, a 'centaur' -well, praying mantis, more fittingly- profile would be understandable and more likely. And the combination of endoskeleton and exoskeleton in a single creature (Spider) frankly looks more weird Fantasy (D&D fashion – spider-centaurs are a 'classic' or Dark Elves / drows) than Sci-Fi, even remotely 'credible' one.

How about this happy fella? Load him up with some guns, backpack, etc. (hagryphus giganteus and others)

And if this idea works than Khurasan already makes these guys…add guns and gear

@28mmMan,

Dude I have pitched that last idea for years and so far it's hit a wall on all fronts.

My dinos with guns crusade is one of the reasons I started sculpting myself. So far, I am not up to the task of doing raptors with guns, but I'm getting there.

The raptors that Khurasan make are awesome raptors but they are a bit big to make into armed alien, IMO. You could do it, but they'd be darned big.

-Eli

I didn't realize you were thinking smaller than man size…hmmm.

Maybe dock the tail? This would bring the size down quite a bit. Then change the body angle with a slight tilt back and torso/head up slightly…so taller than a man but not crazy tall.

*****

Ok, how about 10mm raptors?

link

Here is a great link that shows a bunch of dinosaurs with a human next to them for reference.

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Wasn't thinking smaller than man-size, just not fit a man in my belly size.

Anything with a balancing tail is going to be bigger overall but something in the same general size category is what I'm shooting for.

Those 10mm Velociraptors might work for conversions. I just wish I had a better idea how they scaled with 15mm figs. People's ideas of how big the various raptor types are varies from artist to artist.

Raptors would easily convert over to bird like creatures.

-Eli

I feel your pain…perhaps draw your vision, even in stickman form would better help us help you my friend :)

Size your would prefer, basic form direction, and interaction point (fluttering or scuttering).

No worries man,

I've presented drawings by myself before and it's not worked.

But, the subject is now the lack of birdies :)

-Eli

Eli I have been giving this some thought.

First, slightly unrelated, I was searching for alien birds and found this image which made me chuckle, "I am looking for a robot but I am unsure what looks like…"

link

Trying to pluck an idea from someone else's head is tough :)

*****

There are three aspects of avian structure that will catch the eye and say "bird".

beak/head

wings/feathered

body/legs

Any beak/head/neck feature that has any look close to vulture will be Skeksis. So in 15mm this means most diurnal raptor (eagle/hawk/etc.) will most likely fall into this by proxy and small size although a crest would help break the lines.

The wings…feathered wings on anything close to bipedal is an angel…it isn't but this is one of the most used and abused features in science fiction and fantasy IMO

Body/legs…backward facing legs, a nice raptor foot, and thick muscled thighs would go a long way by themselves…put a mundane human torso on these legs and it is still a freak show and says weird bird legs.

So IMO the first and foremost feature to establish the avian nature of a ground type would be the large slightly over sized bird legs/thighs.

Then even if you weird out the upper section it will still bend the mind's eye toward bird.

*****

Hmmm

Thinking of an advanced avian alien I am thinking the lower half of classic big bird (even if the end result is a small alien), a long beak like a hornbill or toucan, and then a partial wing with spidery fingers.

Considering we're talking aliens, you could also go the route of a creature that developed certain features we think of as 'birds' (the feet, the heads and beaks, feathers) for reasons other than birds on Earth.

We have flightless birds on earth, but they have wings. But what if these avianish aliens never developed flight at all? Instead, they developed feathers for insulation, waterproofing, and communication (colors and such) use in running, maneuvering, etc.

Beaks are just another fine way to rip stuff up and get at food. These are probably meat eaters, so hooked down.

What you could end up with is an animal with any number of limbs (for simplicity, 4), with traditional (well, not humanoid, but not bird like) arms instead of wings.

Just another thought.

@RTJEbadia,

What you described really is dinosaurs. Dinosaurs did everything that birds do but did it first.

Nobody is really saying theseh ave to be faliens evolved from birds. But we are discussing exactly what you are suggesting, aliens that have obvious avian features.

@28mm Man,

Building off my reply to RTJ. The main features that do need to be there are feathers and a beak of some sort. Even feathers could be done away with.

One feature you did not mention is the eye. Birds usually have a very distinct sort of eye. A lot of the eyes character comes out in painting, but you can sculpt a figure to have a decidedly avian-looking eye.

-Eli

Some quicky sketches with horrible camera phone snaps

These are by no means the only way to do bird aliens and not all of them would need to look so savage. These could be described as "spooky" bir aliens.

-Eli

The seemingly 'reversed' legs are an eye-catching, very characteristic feature.
If 'sentient', a larger brain and probably 'front' eyes allowing 3D vision would be visually fitting.

All true, assuming Earthly biological norms.

Alien brains might function differently or more efficiently. Also, eyes might be structured differently so as to be on the sides of the head but allowing forward vision.

Really, what it comes down to is, "cool factor" with minis.

-Eli

Another rough sample sketch and phone camera snap. This one shows the same alien in three different configurations –

A) Mostly original animal body form. Linear body alignment, arms underneath.

B) "Rubber suit" alien. Full biped, humanoid form with animal features.

C) Interim anatomy. Still retains retrograde legs and stopped body posture, but mostly upright.

-Eli

Eli,

The first three pics are spot on to what I was thinking :)

The second set I would think to focus on A if it were me.

B is fine but as noted, rubber suited.

C works but is Space Opera, which I like but the A version offers the same as B and C while retaining a bit of inhuman without inserted bizarre just for the sake of weirdness.

What would you think of another eye arrangement?

Say from a limited light forest/jungle planet, plenty of rain/fog/mist, and maybe an odd colored sun that would present radiation issues if exposed?

I am picturing a pair of large eyes as per normal and then another set either behind the main eyes and up the skull or in front and center…the former gives a distinct alien look without going to far and the latter gives a near spider look which is alarming and alien.

Does the Avlien need the eye addition, no.

Heck even a cyclops eye would provide a yikes and egads look right? :)

If I had to pick one, then it would be from the first three, the second guy with the partial wing.

*****

As a follow up thought, how about a trio of animal companion/service types?

A flyer like an eagle…scout, spotter, foraging/hunter, etc.

A ground type, an ax beak for example…attack "dog"

A ground type, large riding bird…overland travel, cargo, etc.

@28mmMan,

Could be that the alien does need them. Maybe the alien never devloped complex eyes and needs both sets for a full range of vision with each of the four being much more specialized than our terrestrial avians' two eyes. If you look at the sketches I sent you, I even flirted with four-eyed bird designs.

I even jokingly did a "serious" more gritty version of the green bird Martians from the old Warner Brothers cartoons.

I would give pause at doing the multibird service animal angle. Doing that, you end up duplicating the Kroot from GW. Why would birds have domesticate other birds? Why couldn't a bird ride a horse-like beast or some other alien critter. Funny image, a bird riding a war cat!

-Eli

I saw the four eye sketch but I had thought you were playing with open nostril closer to the face or another eye set :)

"I even jokingly did a "serious" more gritty version of the green bird Martians from the old Warner Brothers cartoons.

I would give pause at doing the multibird service animal angle. Doing that, you end up duplicating the Kroot from GW. Why would birds have domesticate other birds? Why couldn't a bird ride a horse-like beast or some other alien critter. Funny image, a bird riding a war cat!"

I resisted presenting the Martian Bird Alien at least five times LOL

As for the Kroot issue, I could see that. Riding a huge cat would be fun, but riding a huge cat-monkey now that would be magic!

Ground birds using flying mounts would be sort of cool.

We humans have dreamt of flying. They dreamt of returning to the skies.

This is just meta-plot useless fluff, but they have nurse birds sort of like how Cow Birds and Cuckoos use others to hatch and raise their young. Evolved avians who learned to get an evolutionary leg up in dominance by borrowing other avians to increase their chances of survival. This trait would not have to disappear just because they became sentient.

What about avians with rapid adaptation like finches? They spread through thir known space, colonizing with relative ease but each world being slightly different.

-Eli

"Ground birds using flying mounts would be sort of cool.

We humans have dreamt of flying. They dreamt of returning to the skies."

It may just be me, but I am seeing retro equipment, think Flash (aaahaaaa) Gordon!

Rayguns

Ray Rifles

Jet/Rocket/Jump Packs

Along these lines

*****

"What about avians with rapid adaptation like finches? They spread through thir known space, colonizing with relative ease but each world being slightly different."

Yikes…nothing says Kroot more than constant adaptation :)

Well, I'd go for a more hard scifi approach myself. But therei s always room for pulp scifi too.

-Eli

Fascinating discussion! the Terror Bird has opened up a whole new dimension in visualising things that go 'caw' in the night -- and on the page. We have been absorbed in stuff that flies for aeons and it won't be changing soon! I am a scifi author that is new to this thread and this page -- one of my upcoming books (fantasy -spec fic cross over) will feature avian aliens. Looking forward to this board.
V.

Thanks for the kind words. I think you will find that TMP is a great place to discuss ideas and to collect them. Even if you are not a gamer (it's primary audience) there is fun for all!

-Eli

Fascinating discussion! the Terror Bird has opened up a whole new dimension in visualising things that go 'caw' in the night -- and on the page. We have been absorbed in stuff that flies for aeons and it won't be changing soon! I am a scifi author that is new to this thread and this page -- one of my upcoming books (fantasy -spec fic cross over) will feature avian aliens. Looking forward to this board.
V.

I am actually revving up to game as well -- just returned from The Library as an author at ORIGINS and got a chance to sit in on a Lovecraft rpg (love Lovecraft). Couldnt stay long but turned the GM onto a new scenario and they were playing it when I left. Going to GENCON in two weeks, will be in Authors Avenue -- are any of the sci fi forum folks going to be there?
~V

Good point about dinosaurs, Emu.

Also, I like your sketches. Those were the sort of bird aliens I was imagining…

I also really liked the idea of having large bird eyes on the sides of the head with two smaller eyes more centered… that makes them just that much more alien.

I am happy that the sketches have been well received and that this thread attracted the level of discussion that it did.

-Eli

Eli,

among your 3 last sketches the left one is the most original (i.e. the less 'man in rubber suit) but would be ever more 'avian' with 'knees' bended in the other direction, chicken-fashion (I know it's because they actually are ankles, but you get the idea)

2 pairs of eyes would make them even less 'humans with heavy make-up'

I wonder if looking at Archaeopterix or the Hoatzin would be a good bet. Juvenile hoatzin have claws which they use to clamber around branches until they fledge. Once they fledge they begin to lose the claws. Once fully adult the claws are gone.

But that would allow them to still have wings but be able to manipulate weapons with them. Just they wouldnae be able to fly and fire :P