"D'Erlon's dispositions at Waterloo" Topic

Looking at various maps of the Waterloo battlefield, and from reading various narratives, it's clear that there is confusion as to the placement of D'Erlon's divisions on the morning of the battle.
Fortescue's [or is it Thier's?] map places Allix's [Quiot] adjacent to the Charleroi Brussels road.
Whilst other maps [Gardiner's?] indicate that this position was occupied by Donzelot's division.

One account that I have recently read indicates that Donzelot's brigades were engaged in the first assault on the farm of La Haie Sainte [A. Barbero, The Battle]

link

Whilst another indicates that this was conducted by Allix's division, particularly Charlet's brigade [Adkin, The Waterloo Companion].

link

Barbero suggests that Donzelot's division wasn't directly part of D'Erlon's fateful assault on the ridge, but was focused more on the farm. Whilst Adkin suggests that Donzelot's division was squarely placed between divisions Allix and Marcognet.

Obviously only one of these accounts is correct.

With the knowledge that the second assault on La Haie Sainte, following the cavalry attacks, was successfully undertaken by Donzelot's division, and that this division was pressing hard against the allied center, after the fall of the farm and during the assault of the Imperial Guard, perhaps Barbero may be more accurate. What do others think?

npm

For the love of Mike, resize the bloody maps

CS,
I wish I knew how to – unfortunately, they are links to other sites………
At least you can see them.
Perhaps Bill will can alter the links

npm

Of course removing the maps works too.

Google image search for 'battle of waterloo Fortescue map', and 'battle of waterloo gardiner map' to see the map images.

Or just check out the maps below – CS, you're a genius……

npm

I am impressed – TMPers strike again. Wanna map of a battle nearly 200 years ago – just ask on TMP.

What does Jac Weller say? That Quiot/Allix's brigades were on the road and made the first assault on La Haye Sainte.

"Donzelot's whole Division in its single column of battalions, one brigade behind the other, was coming along within supporting distance of Quiot [Allix], perhaps 400 yards farther east and 200 yards to the rear….Pack moved to oppose Donzelot… probably with four battalions in line." (Wellington at Waterloo, chapter VIII)

Weller is also sure that the Union Brigade swept Donzelot off the ridge.
It is probably not surprising that 1,200 heavy dragoons would defeat 5,000 infantry in an awkward formation, even if the cavalry were not able to get up a proper charge. It's more puzzling that most writers say the French suffered terrible casualties (including 2,000 prisoners?) and were destroyed as a fighting formation. Yet 13th Legere, which was in the lead brigade of Donzelot's division, apparently reformed in three battalions and captured LHS a couple of hours later.

I don't think there are any primary accounts that exist that state which division was on d'Erlon's left – Quiot's or Donzelot's. D'Erlon's report doesn't get into specifics. Years ago John Koontz did a study in Empires, Eagles & Lions of d'Erlon's attack. One thing he noticed is that the French secondary sources, such as Houssaye and Charras, as well as de Bas, have Quiot on the left. The British secondary sources such as Siborne, Becke and Batty, have Donzelot's division on the left. Believe me, current authors such as Weller, Bowden, Adkin or Barbero are just following one or more of these sources. The only thing that anyone can pretty definitely figure out is that the brigades that went up to the ridge of the first 3 divisions were left in front, meaning the 2nd brigades were in front.

De Bas has the most detail. He has Charlet's Brigade attacking La Haye Sainte with the 55e in front and the 54e behind (with Bourgeois' brigade on the right, with the 105e in front and the 28e behind it). I think Margerit, who was in Durutte's division I believe, has one battalion of the 54e held back in reserve, and the brigade rallied on that battalion.

For what it's worth, Donzelot's division went off first on June 17th, so there is the possibility that if d'Erlon's divisions formed as they came up, Donzelot's could have formed beside the road.

I agree with Mr. Westman.
The ordering of the units has been a vexing problem from the day after the battle, it appears. The général baron Jomini, a contemporary, notes the confusion in some detail writing shortly after the conflict.

Although the formation and deployment of d'Erlons corps has indeed always been an issue, it is possible to reconstruct at least several bits. So I throw my two cents in here.

Bijlandt's brigade being posted behind the hollow road (and in front of Kempt's and Pack's brigades) was attacked directly by two French divisions approaching its position, according to numerous accounts from officers serving in this Netherlands brigade. In my opinion these were the ones commanded by Donzelot and Marcognet. To the left of Donzelot the brigade of Bourgeois approached the guns of the batteries of Rogers and Bijleveld, including the companies of the 95th Rifles.
The 7th Line Battalion was on the right of Bijlandt's brigade, and when it participated in the counterattack, Captain Scheltens confirmed the presence of Bourgeois' brigade here: 'Several squadrons from the English Horse Guards, which were stationed immediately behind us,
now crossed our line. (I was trapped between two horses and received a glancing blow at this time.) They charged the two flanks of the French column. The latter had no strength in their defense while attempting to deploy and threw down their arms. It was the 105e Regiment. The English captured the Eagle; we the guidons.'
Than what was to the right of Bourgeois, were in my conviction Donzelot and Marcognet, throwing themselves upon the remainder of Bijlandt's brigade.

De Bas has the most detail. He has Charlet's Brigade attacking La Haye Sainte with the 55e in front and the 54e behind (with Bourgeois' brigade on the right, with the 105e in front and the 28e behind it). I think Margerit, who was in Durutte's division I believe, has one battalion of the 54e held back in reserve, and the brigade rallied on that battalion.

Michael

Do you have access to the de Bas volume (nr 2, I believe)? With the map?? If you do (and here's hoping) is there any chance you could scan and post here?

- Allan

@ Allan, I believe I have one, but I don't know how to post pictures here.

Michael

I will put out a call to our colleague Connard Sage :-)

Alternatively, if you e-mail a scan to me I'll see what I can do.

- Allan

Allan,

I have de Bas and the various maps in the separate volume. I'll try to post this early next week. I must say that there are dozens of French accounts relating to the attack of Comte d'Erlon's Corps, although most of these are not generally known in the English language. I'll also post a list, but must state that I have to complete the translations.

John

Scan it as a Jpeg.

email it to me at kawa. jeff @ bt open world. com (close the spaces) with 'map' in the subject line, and I'll sort it if you like.

John

Thank you very much!

- Allan

Allan,

These are the accounts I have currently which cover the disposition and attack of Comte d'Erlon's Corps (I have others but cannot state at the moment the extent of the content, and as stated, most of the following have not been translated into English):

Comte d'Erlon
Donzelot – 2nd Div
d'Arsonval – 3rd Div (Staff officer)
Durutte – 4th Div
Gordon (Staff officer)
Fleuret – 55th
Schmitz – 13th
Gastinieau – 13th
Noguès (? – will need to confirm the regiment)
Lavoye 29th
Bruno 1st Cavalry Brigade
Dupuy 7th Hussards
Marbot 7th Hussards
Duthilt – 2nd Brigade
Canler – 28th
Veillard – 6th Artillery
Martin – 45th
Brüe de Garoutier (? as above)
Chapuis 85th
Jacqmin 85th
Bosse – 95th
Bro – 4th Lanciers
Flotard – Ditto
Vernier – (Lanciers ?)

A small number of the above are from manuscript sources, a number from relatively unknown printed sources, and several from both (it is always interesting to compare these, like for like – as an account like Bro's differs considerably from the printed version, and includes lots of little sketches, which are fascinating). As stated, I have a number of other manuscript items, but these are not yet researched fully.

I have tried to upload the scans of the maps without success, and will E-Mail them to jeff, in the hope that he is more knowledgeable in these matters than myself. John

John

That is an impressive list!

I am familiar with Comte d'Erlon, Donzelot, Durutte, Noguès (ditto your ? – is this the artillery officer?), Marbot, Duthilt, Canler, Martin (a personal favourite) and Bro (the printed version).

When will these appear in print?

Thank you for your efforts over the maps.

- Allan

Allan,

I will be honest and say that the French material will repesent the high water mark of my study, with two full books of French Correspondence and two books on the uniforms, weapons and equipment (Imperial Guard being one separate volume – the line and light regiments the other). Therefore, they will be published as printed books in 2014, if not early 2015. However, I will start to include some of these items in the on-line archive in the coming months. Please note that the list only relates to Comte d'Erlon's Corps, and the material I have amassed on the French numbers more than two hundred.

While I am on the subject of Comte d'Erlon's attack, I must ask if anyone can help with information on the uniform worn by Sir William Ponsonby, the Major-General commanding the 'Union' Brigade. None of the accounts in my possession detail his attire, although many of those from the British cavalry mention his death (almost all say he was shot). I have been asked by Steve Stanton at the Waterloo Collection for some guidance, as the Mont St. Jean site shows Ponsonby wearing a blue overcoat. Any ideas? John

P.S. Yes, Noguès is an account by an artilleryman.

Here is a link to the relevant page in the Mont St. Jean site: link

I have sent a message to Alexi, but have yet to hear from him.

John

I have de Bas and the various maps in the separate volume. I'll try to post this early next week.

John/Jeff,
Would love to see the de Bas maps is they're available.

npm

I have not forgotten, and have had three from the maps which accompany the de Bas books scanned, including the panorama. However, these are faded in my copy, so they are being digitally enhanced by the copyshop especially for TMP. As soon as I receive them I'll E-Mail Jeff, so that he can post them. John

Superb – thank you – looking forward to seeing them

npm

Sorry, I've been away for several days. I didn't have de Bas' maps; the diagram I had of Charlet's brigade is from John Koontz's article.

I'd be interested in seeing what Fleuret of the 55th says. Most of the ones, like Canler, don't really mention where their unit was in reference to other units.

I think it is pretty obvious that Qiuot's Division was on the left of Comte d'Erlon's 1st Corps and Donzelot's division immediately to its right.
It had been since the arrival of 1st Corps at the battlegrounds of Waterloo, or Mont St. Jean, when the divisions deployed just along the road leading from La Belle Alliance running towards Smohain and that direction. Prior to moving through the Grand Battery and preparing themselves for the attack on the Allied left wing.
This can be viewed from my friend Pierre de Wit's website at: waterloo-campaign.nl Look at 18th June, the chapter "The French advance and the order of battle".
It would seems really strange when at that particluar moment Quiot was on the left of the 1st Corps to have changed his position with Donzelot.

Donzelot's troops seem only to have participated after the initial attack of 1st Corps was repulsed, in the succesful attack and capture of La Haye Sainte; based on primary French accounts.

Erwin,

I entirely agree with you, and Donzelet's troops also played a prominent part during the attack by the Imperial Guard, being mistaken by members of Kielmansegge's Brigade as part of the French Guard. John

Gentlemen,
I have sent the map from de Bas and the accompanying panorama to Jeff, as promised. I hope that he can do something with them as they are both faded, even when digitally enhanced. John

Thanks John.

- Allan

Any news? I'm beside myself with anticipation ;-)

- Allan

I have formed my 1815 French on just this scenario, and what is really interesting is; if you use A0 size paper (not sure what US size), then draw the map of the area including the deep sunken road, hedge rows and crossroads area etc.

Once done, read as many versions of the battle as you can; and draw the units on where that source says it is including the times and directions; you will find a different picture begins to form and may find most books have copied erroneous data at some time.

I am now impressed by D'Erlons choice of formation, its a shame the Cuirassiers let him down so badly north of La Haye Sainte at the cross roads.

My view and two pennies worth is; that I consider it was the best formation at the time; but that he should have used more of the horse artillery to blast the Allied forces away from very close range.

martin

I am now impressed by D'Erlons choice of formation, its a shame the Cuirassiers let him down so badly north of La Haye Sainte at the cross roads.

I always wonder why Travers brigade was selected as it was the smallest cavalry brigade in the entire French army.

Anyone any insights into who selected Travers?

- Allan

Jeff is doing his best to place the map and the panorama on the thread, although both were faded as I said. Let's hope he can this weekend. John

@ bgbboogie: as you say:

"Once done, read as many versions of the battle as you can; and draw the units on where that source says it is including the times and directions; you will find a different picture begins to form and may find most books have copied erroneous data at some time."

That is just the whole problem & predicament of us investigators and historians! Most or in fact all that has been said and written about the initial attack of 1st Corps is based and repeated on the texts and conclusions written by historians, because the actual French participants unfortuneately left us with no vital(!) clues. So even when you say you throw in your two cents, I cannot agree with you this was the 'best' formation for the troops of 1st Corps to attack in, as it does not solve any questions.

@ Allen. Travers and who dunnit? We'll probably never know… :-)

Just to bump this thread up ……

- Allan

Allan

I imagine Jeff was unable to upload the items I sent him?

John

John

I would be more than happy to try. My e-mail address is allan.mountford@virgin.net

- Allan

Allan

I hope they have arrived safely?

John

They're still in my inbox.

I had a play with them to try to improve the image, without much success. Then promptly forgot about them as this thread fell from the front page.

Apologies. I'll upload the originals from John now.

I'll have another go when I've time, unless a real Photoshop expert can help?

John

Thank you for the direct e-mail. I see that Jeff has uploaded the images. They are brilliant!

- Allan

John

Which edition of de Bas did you take these images from? What size are the originals?

- Allan

Allan

They are from my first edition copy, and the original maps are approx. A3 ( hence the fold lines where they are folded to go into the small sleeve with all of the maps).

John

John

Thank you again.

- Allan

Yes, thank you for uploading the de Bas map – interestingly, the deployment of Foy, Bachelu and D'Erlon's divisions [presumably stacked brigades on two battalion frontage] seems at odd with the general consensus that the divisions were arrayed in deployed battalions in two lines separated by 75-100 paces.
Reading the de Wit document, he states that D'Erlon's divisions were arranged from left to right with Quiot [Allix], Donzelot, Marcognet and Durutte. Quiot anchored on the highway, and Durutte before Papelotte. There is a footnote to this statement, but it doesn't confirm the source for the arrangement of the divisions, but only mentions the placement of the 45th Regt., in Marcognet's division.
However, if we accept that arrangement, we have to discount Alesandro Barbero's [The Battle] account of D'Erlon's attack, at least in respect to Quiot and Donzelot's involvement. I personally really enjoyed Barbero's book, and it's unsettling to think that something like the attack on the ridge and La Haye Sainte is so wrong. There can only be one truth.

npm

Wow
In my thirties and 40's I spent a lot of time studying the Waterloo campaign and have quite a few books on it.
Hidden away in a storage shed.

I don't think anyone making a detailed study such as this should use books like Weller, which are really introductory books to the campaign and worse they are based on secondary sources.

From a wargamers point of view I was always amazed that a few regiments of British cavalry was be able to rout so many French battalions.

Most rules sets at that time would not have allowed that to happen, which is why I wrote my own set based on the WRG rules.

I am very impressed by the level of detail and insight in the posts above.

From what I can tell, D'Erlon wasn't facing that much British artillery. Nor could he, I will guess, see any solid lines of British infantry to his immediate front and perhaps was anticipating infantry opposition less effective than British line infantry. Therefore, he ordered an advance in closed Divisional columns which are good against cavalry--a likely adversary with no batteries massed in front-- except when they are deploying into line b/c any overlap whatsoever—probably unavoidable for a few brief, but very long minutes—prevents the individual battalions from being able to deploy into square. Furthermore, I don't think D'Erlon, Ney--or Napoleon for that matter--knew exactly where the British heavy cavalry was or when or where they were being moved. So, when D'Erlon or his division commanders ordered the deployment from closed Divisional attack columns into line--probably when they unexpectedly ran into a solid line of British infantry-- none knew how close or far the British heavy cavalry was-- an advantage entirely conferred on Wellington by his choice of a reverse slope position. Basically, Wellington timed it perfectly, and more than likely anticipated just about all of it. It was an ambush writ large on an open field in broad daylight :) However, if D'Erlon had ordered an advance in Divisional columns at half distance it might have been a different story. Whether or not D'Erlon's troops were uniformly capable of that tactic is another question.

I believe the position of the French 'Grand Battery' is a point that will need revision.