"Napoleonic period Militia units?" Topic

What was the average size of those units? Were they larger than regular line units as a rule?

What was the usual formation Militia used? Were they deployed in lines as regulars or something similar to attack column?

Any particular nation's militia in mind?

Russian? Spanish? Prussian Landwehr? Other?

'Militia' wasn't a homogeneous catchall.

Any, all.

When you say 'All', are you including Britain? British Militia and Volunteer forces of the period are a VERY big subject and while I'm happy to give an answer, it'd be a tad annoying to find out afterwards that you're only interested in continental nations' militia.

Yes, continental. I assume that British didn't have their militia fighting on the continent.

Yes, continental. I assume that British didn't have their militia fighting on the continent.

It depends on the continent. Napoleonic fighting was world-wide, and the answer varies. Should respondents assume you mean Europe?

Rick

I don't want to be an ass hole, pardon me. Lawyers can't participate in this discussion and if you are a lawyer and still want to participate, please forget that you are. Again, I apologise. My intentions is not to offend anyone, just to move discussion along. :)

Cool. Good job I asked, cos it was going to be a long reply! :o)

I'd be interested RMD. Start another thread.

You may not be aware that your question was very open ended on a topic with lots of information.

The people looking to help you are trying to narrow down the topic. They don't want to waste their time or yours typing away on something you don't care about.

I'm more interested to see if/when you get DHed for getting around the Bleepomatic.

I was looking for something like:

"Russians used militias in emergencies?, like in 1812 invasion?. Their units were usually larger/smaller and poorly armed?. Because of little drill? they tend to form in deep columns?

Prussians, on the other hand…?"

How difficult was that?

Without getting into any detail, a very generalized response would be, militia battalions would tend to be smaller than regular battalions, as they would potentially suffer more from desertion and march attrition. And as a result of poor or inadequate training they would best be suited to columnar formations, lacking the confidence to fight in line, and possibly the training to adequately form open square.

npm

How difficult was that?

Not difficult at all. So why didn't you say that in the first place, we could have avoided all the unpleasantness?

And as a result of poor or inadequate training they would best be suited to columnar formations, lacking the confidence to fight in line, and possibly the training to adequately form open square.

Apart from Prussian Landwehr. Who, by 1815, were considered to be almost the equal of well trained regulars.

Landwehr battalions had 4 companies and a paper strength of 600-800.

Connard Sage,

Because this is TMP I assume that no one would write doctorate dissertation on the message board. I also didn't ask open ended question like "Tell me about Napoleonic period militia". I specifically asked about size and formations.

BTW, thanks for pointing out info for Prussian Landwehr. I didn't know that.

I think the response that pushed this into the absurd was when the OP mentioned he was only interested in "continental" militias, FT said, "It depends on the continent."

That will teach me a lesson about asking about history on TMP. Instead, I should of made snark comment about a sport team or proposed a poll about boobs.

You will find that the basics are set out in the recent P&S book: "Armies of the Napoleonic Wars" (ed. G Fremont Barnes – but to avoid a DH, I wrote the Austrian chhapter, where I outlined its militia units).

Your latest comment is pretty accurate.

mgdavey,

Several posters, including myself, are trying to make a point you apparently missed. There is nothing absurd about narrowing down the theater of interest. TMP posts regularly discuss wargaming in this period in Egypt (ie, Africa), in Asia, and in North and South America, in addition to Europe. I have posted several times about the use of British and Canadian militia on the North American continent.

Not only can we not read IGWARG1's mind or tell what scope of information was sought, but it does appear from the subsequent answers that providing that information on this thread would be off the mark. Without that knowledge, the conversation can't really move forward.

I'd also note in passing that I recall Oman's books listing orders of battles for militia units raised by the British that did serve in Spain like the Calabrian Free Corps. That may be within the scope of the poster's request, or it might not be. We don't know without raising the issue. Sometimes people want answers in terms of the major powers, other times they are looking for the obscure or off-beat. That's the nature – and charm – of TMP. Sometimes, I would hope, an individual's interests get expanded when the range of answers turn out to be richer than expected. (Sorry, I don't have Oman at hand, so I don't know whether he gave a unit strength or not.)

Rick

Yep. As Rick said. Just to talk about the myriad of Spanish militia units would take me a long post. But if I don't know if the OP is interested, why bother?

@IGWARG1,

The problem is that you have asked a question that is really very complex and I doubt any one individual here has the complete answer. Books have been written on the Prussian Landwehr alone for example. In general terms the internal organisation of militia-type units would probably be the same as any infantry unit of the country in question and their training would be the same because they needed to integrate with regular troops of the army in question. Of course their ability varied enormously. British militia didn't serve outside the UK as far as I know and Austrian Landwehr does not appear to very well regarded but Prussian Landwehr on the other hand seems to have been pretty good by the end of the wars. I'm afraid I know even less about other nationalities. I suggest that you try Googling the subject under each nationality and you will probably find a lot of the information you seek at least as a start.

Bill

Dear Igor
Militia units have been of great interest. A few years ago I published a book on the Russian Opolchenie. These served well in the 1812 campaign and after Borodino the Moscow Opolchenie was used to fill the ranks of the line units.
link

Currently writing a book on the Prussian Landwehr, Volunteers and National Cavalry Regiments to accompany my two books on Prussian Infantry. The fourth volume will be on the Line and Guard cavalry.

I may be able to answer your questions upon these.
Stephen

Uh, given that Igor was born in the USSR, one might assume he can read Russian and is better situated for _us_ to ask _him_ about Russian militia.

Militia were fielded in quantities ranging from 1 to 1000 or so. I'll let the lawyers carve that up.

All I know about Russian militia is that "our militia is taking care of us". :)

Connard, there was this earlier thread, which developed and brought up some very interesting stuff:

TMP link

The average size was 352, officers and supernumaries exclusive.

About that poll – you do realise it can be a very big topic dont you, EEE at least according to the wrapper on the DVD in front of me.
Too much to describe on here really.

@ R Mark Davies

Many thanks. Your link is a mine of great information.

@FlordiaTory
If you go to a hotel and they tell you your stay includes Continental Breakfast, do you also ask "Which continent?" Again, as a joke, that would be pretty funny. If serious, it would be a sign of ignorance.
Perhaps you were unaware, but in the term "Continental", especially used in the context of Anglo-European history, the continent being referred to is Europe. If you didn't know this, you have no business posting to a board like this.
To anybody not in the mood to nitpick, it was clear that the OP was asking about militias serving with armies of the continental powers.
For a random example (although a quick google search will find hundreds), this sentence is from the wikipedia article on British Light Infantry:

"By contrast, the continental armies. including the French, Italians, Austro-Hungarians, and Germans, all maintained distinct mountain or alpine units, which remained true light infantry."

Even on wikipedia, where the level of half-assed pendantry rivals TMP, nobody has asked "Which continent?"

@mgdavey,

Quite so.

The Continent always means Europe here. I'm not sure why but it might be because is consists of so many different foreign countries the names of which we would rather not mention aloud.

Britain is, of course, geographically part of Europe but by alluding to "The Continent" we ensure that we can never be mistaken for foreigners when we are over there.

On The Continent they eat Continetal Cuisine (Cuisine is a foreign word for horse I believe). The Continent is also cut-off by fog in the English Channel from time to time, which we generally consider to be a good thing.

The Continent has its uses and historically we have found it a convenient place to fight wars. We have never been very discriminating and have had a go at most of the foreign countries over there at one time or another.

There is never any confusion in my experience. The other continents are called by their proper names Australia, Africa, Antarctica, Asia, South America and Canada.

Real men never eat Continental breakfast or sleep under a Continental quilt.

Bill

Real men never eat Continental breakfast or sleep under a Continental quilt.

I'll hand in my man licence in the morning :(

What was the average size of those units? Were they larger than regular line units as a rule?
What was the usual formation Militia used? Were they deployed in lines as regulars or something similar to attack column?

When you establish how long a piece of string is, please let us know.

Mal

From beginnning to end.

Jeez – dont you even know that?

The usual formation was Very Close Together.

Pertaining to Britain, or more properly English – I thought they had fought against all of the continentals at least once?

Anyway – militia forces are a fascinating subject, what rules is the original request about, as most rules just lump them as very inferior and have them hang around at the back! Woe betide if they get shot at, or charged by anything since they normally get cut down.

Exceptions

Russian – not much worse than Russian line (perhaps this is more revealing about potentially how poor some Russian line units may have been)

Prussian, here some troops became seasoned militia – so I assume that since they had remained under arms sufficently long some may have been able to function as line.

I am overgeneralising – my go to books are campaigns of napoleon, and Bruce Quarrie

Dear Darren
Upon what is your statement "Russian [Militia] – not much worse than Russian line" is based. At what date are you referring. Is this a comment upon the standard of muskets or the soldiers?

Stephen