"Pulp imagi-nation?" Topic

How about a pulp imagi-nation? I like the german figures, especially she-wolves but I want something different than black with swastikas. Looking at Napoleonic uniform color combinations. Something set in quasi-Russian like an updated Back of Beyond, the revolution has resulted in two Russias or more….

Why not? It's your imagi-nation, you can do whatever you want with it! And certainly the idea of multiple countries rising out of the revolution is not unrealistic.

Ruritania?

Not for me. I'd rather see a representation from the "pulp era". Otherwise what is it? It's adventure, but not "Pulp".

Crimson Skies "Untied States".

Graustark unt Ruritania

Imagi-Nation Polynesian Island groups(Skull Island Archipelago?)

Central and South American warlord states, Asian Warlord states, the Balkans.

Ex-Imperial German African states.

USA gangster city-states.

Just add armored trains, tankettes, moto-cavalry, pursuit planes, Zepps and sub-cruisers.

My imagi-nation of Alcovia started as VSF/Pulp era country.

-Eli

>>My imagi-nation of Alcovia started as VSF/Pulp era country<<

Two different eras. The pulp era begins where the Victorian era ends.

I realize that but didn't see the need to be overly specific. I think the point was made, regardless.

-Eli

The eternal debate between the *letter* and the *spirit* of a Text.
Lovecraftian example: since H.P.L.'s writings were set in the "20, 'Call of Cthulhu' had to be played in that period. But for me that is being faithful only to the *letter* of the Text, and betraying its *spirit*: Lovecraft's novellas were so impressive because they were contemporary to their readers, so to be faithful to their spirit 'CoC' should be played in our everyday background.
Now, Lovecraft's non-human creatures existed long before Humankind, thus can appear in every period of Human history from the Neolithic (in the manner of Rosny Aine's "Les Xipehuz" link ) to the near-future. A 18th C. example in development: link

In the same way is 'Pulp' restricted to a period, or is it a *genre*? Adventures combining Secret Societies, mysterious Strangers, suspect travelers (Gypsies), search for old 'Artifacts of Power', a few 'advanced' prototypes, occasional 'odd' events / manifestations that may look 'paranormal / supernatural' but may equally well have a 'rationalist' explanation (in the best cases nobody is really sure, not even the Game Master)… can be set in very different periods, from the search of Atlant artefacts (inherited from the Nephilim) by the Knight Templars to the present. The 18th c. adventures of 'Le Scorpion' picture do have a strong 'Pulp' feeling.So of course, why not after the collapse / shrinkage of *any* great Empire leaving numerous 'new' countries (Ottoman in the late 19th C., Austro-Hungarian and Russian after WW1, Colonial Empires after WW2, Russian Empire after the collapse of the USSR…). What would make the Imagi-Nation 'Pulp' would not be the time and locale, but the kind of *adventures* your characters live in it.

>>In the same way is 'Pulp' restricted to a period, or is it a *genre*?<<

It's both a period and a genre. The period is the pulp era from the early 1900's to the mid 1950's. It's called the pulp era because pulp magazines and related fiction like radio, comic strips, "B" movies and serials, and the major ficitonal characters from them, all existed and crossed over during that period. The genre is adventure, defined as:

An undertaking or enterprise of a hazardous nature.

An undertaking of a questionable nature, especially one
involving intervention in another state's affairs.

An unusual or exciting experience.

Participation in hazardous or exciting experiences.

While you can, of course, set an adventure in *any* period, the fun is in sticking to the pulp era because of the characters and adventures that are unique to that period. You couldn't, for instance, imagine that Flash Gordon, The Shadow or Tarzan could be believable characters in modern times.

Agreed! I didn't want to start an arguement but my thoughts were the same. Pulp is a genre or style of adventure that extends to all sorts of settings. It's the style of action and adventures that make it Pulp.

"Star Wars" is Pulpy. "Farscape" was quite pulpy. Both were scifi.

"Romancing the Stone" and "Jewel of the Nile" were modern Pulp.

I think in the case we are looking at two things given the same name, but not two things that are one in the same.

-Eli

@Shadow – But any of those characters can be imagined in modern times and in some cases have been.

Sure to do so requires a few changes and tweaks, but the overall sorts of stories and the like could be told with modern analogs.

For example, I could spe Tarzan fighting modern African warlords, pirates and Poachers just as easily as him fighting hunters, European invaders, warring tribes, etc..

Flash Gordon is a man in a far fanciful place that really is outrageous by any standards old or new. In fact, Farscape is a good example of an update of the Flash Gordon character with Kryton being Flash. Instead of moons orbitting a single planet, we have a strange universe with a collection of characters all living in fear of an imperialistic power.

As far as street level Pulp characters updating, we really need look no farther than characters like Batman who, despite many of his enemies being costumed and with powers, is still very much a Pulpy setting and character.
I see no reason The Shadow couldn't conduct himself in similar fashion.

-Eli

Imagi-Nation Polynesian Island groups(Skull Island Archipelago?)

The Maravellas Islands from Tales of the Gold Monkey, perhaps?

>>@Shadow – But any of those characters can be imagined in modern times and in some cases have been.<<

I strongly disagree. When a pulp era character is brought into modern times he's no longer the same character and the situations change radically.

>>Sure to do so requires a few changes and tweaks, but the overall sorts of stories and the like could be told with modern analogs.<<

>>For example, I could spe Tarzan fighting modern African warlords, pirates and Poachers just as easily as him fighting hunters, European invaders, warring tribes, etc..<<

Tarzan is the perfect example. His parents were shipwrecked and then murdered by apes. There are no longer any unexplored regions along the African coast, let alone with murderous apes running around. Africans have modern weapons now. They would be carrying AK-47's, not spears. The idea that a beautiful woman would rule over a lost civilization where all of the males have degenerated into ape-like creatures played OK to readers in 1912, but that would be a laughable concept to modern readers. So, no. There's no way in hell that you can update Tarzan and have him still be Tarzan.

>>Flash Gordon is a man in a far fanciful place that really is outrageous by any standards old or new.<<

Nope. Can't buy it. Flash Gordon is from Earth, not some other planet in a galaxy far far away. In order to believe the situation that Flash was in you'd have to believe that other planets, like Mongo, have an atmosphere the same as Earth and that we can reach one of them with a "rocketship", which ain't happening. This was believable in 1934, but absurd now. So no Flash Gordon either.

>>As far as street level Pulp characters updating, we really need look no farther than characters like Batman who, despite many of his enemies being costumed and with powers, is still very much a Pulpy setting and character.
I see no reason The Shadow couldn't conduct himself in similar fashion.<<

First of all I don't really consider comic *book* characters from the 1930'-40's to be on the level of pulp fiction from the era. They were very childish. Batman included.

As far as The Shadow is concerned, any "new" Shadow would carry at *least* a handgun that holds 15 rounds, not his famous brace of four Colt model 1911 .45's, and more likely he'd carry a small automatic weapon because he'd be dealing with criminals that are much better armed than they were in the 1930's. He wouldn't be able to wear his slouch hat either as they are out of style. His cab driver operative "Moe" would more likely be named Ramesh. Exclusive "men's clubs" are out of style and not PC. There are dozens of reasons why The Shadow in modern times couldn't be anywhere *near* like the character in the 1930's.

So, if you're saying that it's possible to have modern adventures I agree with you 101%, but if you're saying that the characters that we're discussing can be a part of the those adventures I say that's just not possible.

To answer the OP, I've been running Weird World War II games, both with my regular gaming group and at the HMGS conventions, set in fictious countries, particularly Ruritania. However, this is not the Ruritania of Hope's novels but based on the Space 1889 canon. In Space 1889, several countries from 19th century fiction were real, Ruritania, Graustark, and Transbalkania but were all located in the western Balkans. So the concept was originally based in VSF and that's how we started playing them. I wondered what the countries would be like fifty years on and switched the emphasis in the games to a pulp feel. I also then added the two countries from the Marx Brothers' Duck Soup, which is a great source for interwar imagi-nations.

In this world, Ruritania is constitutional monarchy, the ruling Radziwill dynasty being descended from a not-too-bright member of that famous Polish-Lithuanian family that made a wrong turn on the way home from the Siege of Vienna in 1683 and ended up liberating Ruritania from the Turks. The monarch at the start of World War II is King Ruprikt III, an incredibly dim and speech impaired septuagenarian who had been the youthful hero of our VSF adventures. Because of the Radziwill connection, Ruritania, especially its army borrows heavily from pre-war Poland, so I am able to use the great Bolt Action Early War Polish Army figures. The connection is also why Ruritania is attacked by the Nazis in 1939. Nikola Tesla is a proud son of Ruritania and his army of robots and death rays assist the Ruritania army in its unsuccessful defense.

Gruastark is Ruritania's western neighbor. It's population is descended from those Visigoth who lacked the ambition to go on to sack Rome. Gruastark is a fascist country allied closely with their Teutonic cousins in Germany and it is from here that the Nazis attack Ruritania. I use primarily late WWI figures for Gruastark.

Transbalkania is Ruritania's eastern neighbor and a Communist ally of the Soviet Union – I use RCW figures. Sylvania, a former Venetian colony is strongly influenced by Italy and Spain – I use SCW figures here. Freedonia is an odd enclave run by a group of American ex-patriots and I used American WWI and Pulp Figures marines for the surplus-equipped Freedonians.

@Shadow – We'll have to disagree on this one, but I feel we've already hijacked the thread enough for now :)

Simple answer is YES you can and should if you want.

-Eli

@ bogdanwaz: your Ruritania and Graustark remind me of (1938) Syldavia and Borduria.
Is 'Ottokar's sceptre' a Pulp adventure?

For purists (fundamentalists?) to be 'Pulp' a 'pulpy' adventure / game is to be set ± during the Interwars?

I am in the uncomfortable position of having to disagree with a genuine expert here on TMP. In my opinion pulp can be set in the modern era. Philip Jose Farmers 'Tarzan Alive' contains the backdrop for several contemporary Tarzan adventures.

Pulp is about supremely able heroes in the service of an unquestionably righteous cause. The WW2 segment of Triplanetary is pulp in a nonpulp setting. The opposite of pulp is not VSF but Noir, average guys and suspect authority. Pulp and VSF are man and monkey with an Edwardian missing link. Notice that Pulp and VSF fit together quite easily in Farmers Wold Newton universe. link He fits James Bond and Modesty Blaise in the setting as well. I have not read anything by Don Pendleton, but fans of his are talking about pulp heroes IMHO.

Although it may lack the historical setting you expect for pulp it is still pulp.

>>I am in the uncomfortable position of having to disagree with a genuine expert here on TMP. In my opinion pulp can be set in the modern era. Philip Jose Farmers 'Tarzan Alive' contains the backdrop for several contemporary Tarzan adventures.<<

Thanks for the compliment. (-:

When you start messing around with characters to make them fit into other genres and to reach audiences that are very different than the ones originally intended those characters tend to change quite a bit. Sometimes you wouldn't even recognize that they are supposed to be the same. Take our friend Tarzan for instance. In the pulp magazines he was a genuinely unique sort of hero as with the flip of his mental switch he could change from a sophisticated Englishman to a snarling animal! There were passages from the books that showed him to be truly sadistic, as in "Tarzan the Untamed" when he trapped a lion in a pit like grotto and sealed the entrance and then seized Major Schneider, the officer he believed led the raid on his estate and killed Jane, and threw him into the grotto. The Major quickly climbed a tree, but Tarzan knew that the only way out for the Major was to run for the wall and climb it. He also knew that the lion would catch him before he reached the wall. So Tarzan left him to suffer with the thought that he would either die of starvation or be killed by the Lion. *And* when Tarzan went savage he would willingly tear out an animals throat with his teeth! This wasn't true of the MGM version where Johnny Weismuller was just a noble lunkhead that could get animals to help him. The comic book and comic strip Tarzan were squeeky clean as was the radio and 1930's serial version. In fact, *no* Tarzan was ever like the pulp magazine Tarzan. Not even close. So were they all Tarzan? Well ok, if you wanted to call them Tarzan you certainly could, but to me, only the ERB version is the *real* Tarzan. Every other version is just a vanilla imitation that could have been named *anything* and it wouldn't have mattered.

So OK, if you want to try to shove the ERB square peg Tarzan into a modern round hole you can certainly try, but IMHO you're going to lose the essential spirit of the original character.

>>Although it may lack the historical setting you expect for pulp it is still pulp.<<

I think what you're saying is that "pulp fiction" can be set in any era and you are certainly correct, but the "pulp era" has an essence of it's own that would be lost in modern era adventures.

I think Abdul nailed it. The concepts are timeless but the popularity stems from the early 20th century. Don't let nostalgia get in the way of a good time.
As to the post that began this, why not. You can do anything with paint. You can have imagi-nations in the 21st century-think of any old spy TV show that had the heros
operate in a fictitious country.
Run with it and of course, post photos and post them often!

…Mind you, the Shadow makes good points. He is talking about the damage inflicted when you move the time line over an existing subject though. The primary post asked if it would be feasable to take existing lead and convert it to imagi-nations.
In this case, we deal with an imagi-nation scenario, not if tarzan was in the 21st century. Mind you, I wouldn't want the three Musketeers in snap brim fedoras or Kevlar because it would ruin them. However I would love to see Mr Murche's figures painted up in non-historical livery.

Great discussion gents. I'm thinking about getting into a bit of pulp gaming and have found this very informative. At the moment I know nothing except that I love Bob Murch's figures and have to find a use for them.

I've got some reading and watching to do before the first order. Not sure if it counts or not, but a lot of the old Flash Gordons are on Netflix instant and the '94 The Shadow movie as well.

Is not 'The Phantom' link a Pulp hero -and, at the same time, a kind of Dr Who, present through centuries?

Then, if your 'Propitious to Pulp Adventures' (with Pulpy women*?) Imagi-Nation is set during the Pulp Era, every 'school' will be happy.
---
*: 'heroines' scream and have to be rescued, female heroes fight heroically, but both may be 'pulpy'.

I think, as others have said above, that pulp can be both a style and a setting. Robert Howard wrote a number of stories set in the Middle Ages and Renaissance, including the original Red Sonja story set at the first siege of Vienna. I've recently ran a pulp supernatural game set in the American Revolution with a Solomon Kane type of hero chasing the Jersey Devil.

On the other hand, setting an adventure in, say, the South China Sea in the 1930s evokes an very particular atmosphere and the types of characters that would populate that world would seem out of place in a different time. Indiana Jones didn't seem quite right in 1950s Cold War setting.

I think The Shadow is something of a purist. I don't mean that in a bad way, but I believe that it's all in the trying and the doing. A Pulp character can be updated with it's character mostly intact and still remain true to its roots.

I think it's also important to understand that none of these characters was even loyal to itself 100% of the time. Tarzan, The Shadow, Flash Gordon, and the others all evolved over time and in some cases with different people at the helm.

-Eli

But that is the point emu – different people were at the helm.
The character is true to itself with the original author, but not what other people have done to it.
Moreover, the new folks folded in the character to fit their own time.
Best non-Pulp but Pulpish example – James Bond.
Read the Ian Fleming stories and then read the rest – not the same man really.
Look what people did to Flash Gordon – that is the easiest example of what I call "character-creep".
The characters of Pulp are true to themselves, but people twist them to reach a more current audience rather than requiring the audience to understand where & when the character is from.

emu, one does not have to be a purist to be disgusted where people have taken many of the Pulp characters; one just has to be quite familiar with the character in the first place.
I am no where a purist, but I have ready a number of the original stories from a number of the original authors and then "modern" ones by modern authors.
The moderns all missed every time because they, the authors, are from their time that does not allow for racism, women's issues, cruelty and so forth of the types that the period of 1900 thru 1940 thought was perfectly normal and okay.

The modern folk try, but as was said in the movie "Forever Strong", trying is for losers.
The modern folk fail no matter what and are never true to the roots no matter what they do because they dare not write like the original authors because modern critics would tear them apart.

PulpAce

Well said.

While this has been an interesting discussion, what about the original post? Is there anyone else gaming in the Pulp era using imagi-nations.

I just watched Moon over Parador and thought it might be interesting to use that as a setting but put it back into the 20s or 30s. They give some interesting background about the nation in the movie. Settled by the Spanish using West African slaves, and then taken over by an English pirate named Sims. There are also the mysterious 14 families that run the place as well as a strong German influence (although I think the suggestion is that this is due to fleeing Nazis after WWII). THere is also mention of US intervention going back to the 1890s. Maybe a Bananas Wars setting or a border war with neighboring San Ebola?

@bogdanwaz

I've recently ran a pulp supernatural game set in the American Revolution with a Solomon Kane type of hero chasing the Jersey Devil.

Pics, pics, pics!
Link? Blog? (long overdue, if I may…)

One does not have to be a purist to be disgusted where people have taken many of the Pulp characters; one just has to be quite familiar with the character in the first place.

This I can understand and fully sympathize with, given what Derleth committed as Lovecraft's self-appointed 'heir', and what Howard's successors did of / to Conan. Part by mere mediocrity, part to reach a wider audience and make more money: while Milius' movie (despite a few errors and cuts by a prudish production) was more than adequate, the second (and 'Red Sonja') were disgusting Disney-like sweets for children.

The moderns all missed every time because they, the authors, are from their time that does not allow for racism, women's issues, cruelty and so forth of the types that the period of 1900 thru 1940 thought was perfectly normal and okay.

So true: you can, if you want to,find a lot of 'racism' in Jules Verne (and Jean Ray, but he is widely unknown, thus safe) and some people are petitioning for the interdiction of Herge's early 'Tintin' albums because of 'racism'. Political correctness has its own Nazis: I wonder if in modern editions Sherlock Holmes still *smokes* (Aargh!) -not to speak of his addiction to cocaine?

The modern folk try, but as was said in the movie "Forever Strong", trying is for losers.
The modern folk fail no matter what and are never true to the roots no matter what they do because they dare not write like the original authors because modern critics would tear them apart.

And, what's worse, they would make little money…
I fear Dejah Thoris will be heavily clothed in the incoming movie…
A 'true' Pulp (or Sword & Sorcery, for that matter) movie has to deserve a 'R' / '18' or 'NC-17' / 'R18' rating -and would bring back mediocre Return on Investment…
Thus, could a 'true' Pulp (or Sword & Sorcery, for that matter) game be presented at a general audience in a Convention?

My point about "purism" may have been misunderstood. I say purist because he was unwilling to consider the possibility that the characters could be updated. I was not saying that they had been successfully updated, but that goes to my comment on trying to do it.

My point on authorship may have been overlooked or misunderstood as well. The original authors, who are the creators of the characters are sometimes just as guilty of changing the nature and character of their characters as they evolve the stories and writing styles. It is these cases that I would argue blur the sanctity of "canon".

Really I did not want to make an arguement of this. I just think that these characters are not quite as sacrosanct as some might think and that arguements to that effect do tend to wander a bit into the realm of the "puritanical".

In regard to how this relates to the original post, I was trying to offer a counter point to the rather dogmatic responses that were being offered to the contrary. The OP should certainly feel fully empowered to explore these concepts regardless of what some may think. The only limit is the imagination.

-Eli

If the translation is well done, good stories can be set in totally different times than the original:
- Star Wars (the "77 'New Hope') is a traditional ± fairies medieval tale (the shepherd rescues a princess, then turn out to be a fostered orphan of High Blood…),
- Outland is a remake of High Noon in a Sci-Fi setting,
- Battle beyond the Stars is a SF remake of The Magnificent 7, itself a 'western' remake of 7 Samurai link (and if in this case the quality decreases regularly, it has nothing to do with the transposition, but to who and how done it).

>>The original authors, who are the creators of the characters are sometimes just as guilty of changing the nature and character of their characters as they evolve the stories and writing styles. It is these cases that I would argue blur the sanctity of "canon".<<

Which author from the "pulp era" did that?

>>I just think that these characters are not quite as sacrosanct as some might think and that arguements to that effect do tend to wander a bit into the realm of the "puritanical".<<

I never said that any character was "sacrosanct". I said that "When you start messing around with characters to make them fit into other genres and to reach audiences that are very different than the ones originally intended those characters tend to change quite a bit. Sometimes you wouldn't even recognize that they are supposed to be the same".

…which makes the idea of changing a character that much pointless.

bogdanwaz:

Your Imagi-Nation sounds frankly awesome.

Is that the one that uses the Astounding Tales rules in a modified form?

I could swear I saw pics from a game with a similar backgroud up on the AT! yahoo group.

komradebob, thanks for the kinds words. Yes, the pics on the AT! Yahoo group are from some of my games set in Ruritania. I wrote a supplement to AT!, Astounding Adventures No. 3, The Road to Skull Island, that includes rules modifications for larger pulp style battles called "All God's Chillen Got Guns" (a title taken from a musical number in the aforementioned Duck Soup).

@the shadow
>>The original authors, who are the creators of the characters are sometimes just as guilty of changing the nature and character of their characters as they evolve the stories and writing styles. It is these cases that I would argue blur the sanctity of "canon".<<

Which author from the "pulp era" did that?

Sax Rohmer. His last Fu Manchu novels were real letdowns in my opinion.

Although Austin Briggs was not the creator of Flash Gordon, he wrote a daily strip while Alex Raymond was still doing his sunday page. IMHO, Briggs copied Raymonds worst tendencies.

Bottom line. There was "something in the air" during the 20s and 30s. Rather like there was something in the air with the original Saturday Night Live crew, that hasn't happened since.

Michael Douglas was pretty pulpy in Romancing The Stone…..the sequel, not so much.

There are other 'modern pulp' examples out there, but they are hard to find.

>>Which author from the "pulp era" did that?<<

>>>>Sax Rohmer. His last Fu Manchu novels were real letdowns in my opinion.<<<<

That's one of my points. His last few novels were written during the transitory period between the pulp era and the exploitation magazine era of the late 1950's. I didn't read them, but if you say they had a different feel that's probably why.

>>>>Although Austin Briggs was not the creator of Flash Gordon, he wrote a daily strip while Alex Raymond was still doing his sunday page. IMHO, Briggs copied Raymonds worst tendencies.<<<<

Briggs started out copying Raymond and then changed to his own style. Then they looked very different. Briggs also did sunday pages. I owned the original art for one of them. Mac Raboy, who IMHO was a much better artist than Briggs brought his own style too. I still own the original art for one of his sunday pages and it's really nice, but you can see the more modern approach to science fiction creeping in there, so no matter how good it is it will never be valued as highly as one of Raymond's pages.