"Melting problem reported with GW Finecast:" Topic

Don't shoot the messenger, gents:

link

Long story short: the author gives an account of a Finecast review figure melting under the blazing sun of tropical…eerm…. England.

Perhaps more significantly, he goes on to say a former GW manager has informed him of the Leamington Spa GW store's window display undergoing a similar meltdown.

Thoughts?

Not a customer, so no thoughts. It seems they are taking a monster risk trying this new product however – maybe in a few months they will introduce 'GW Classic' ?

Pat

Overall this is starting to smack of a boondoggle. Between the negative casting issues, the price hike, and now this, it's starting to look bad for them.

Damon.

Ugh. I doubt these would stand up to the heat of my garage game room here in Georgia. Guess I'd better hunt down the metal versions while they're still out there. Or find some other company with good LOTR figs…

Real quick note from a guy who has 27+yrs experience with commercial/industrial/military resins…cured resin does not melt in direct sunlight.

UV can and will degrade the surface of untreated resin…bulk of my experience was in Florida and Texas…I have seen my fair share of 100+ degree summers.

It goes without saying that they are using something other than a standard casting/forming resin…some cheap knick knack formula…what we in the business refer to as dust resin, because it has nearly no resistance to contact or the environment…this type of formula is usually used for single use and disposable products…it starts to break down in the trash can.

The stuff will certainly deform in heat, but "melt"? Probably not.

If it breaks down fairly quickly as 28mmMan suspects, it will also curtail another sales habit GW feeds on: buying ahead. Buy only what you can prime, paint, and SEAL in a short time, assuming you buy this stuff at all.

On a positive side, does this mean you can "repose" a figure using a hair drier, similar to what you can do with pre-painted plastics?

Yes most assuredly.

Keep a bowl of ice water on hand to set the reformed plastic.

A whole new level of Planned Obsolescence.

Or they are listening to their customers. One of the chief complaints is having to buy new figures to go with an updated Codex and leaving you with old, unused figures.

Now you won't have that problem, your old armies will simply dissolve.

Tim

Which can double as terrain material…just sprinkle your crumbled miniatures over fresh white glue and allow to set.

The miniatures were most likely painted already so this crumble will have a nice soft colored nature :)

maybe in a few months they will introduce 'GW Classic' ?

Worked out for Coke in the long run. :)

It occurs to me all the finecast stuff comes with plenty of scrap sprue that could be used to experiment with to determine reactions to heat, various chemicals, etc without having to waste a perfectly good(?) figure in the process. Perhaps someone will do just that and blog it somewhere to settle accusations that the guy in the link boiled his mini or took a magnifying glass to it or whatever. I'm curious to see if it really is that sensitive – our own resin can sit in full summer sunlight for at least a few hours without harm, longer if it's a flat piece on a smooth surface, but we don't do anything as fragile looking as that Gandalf.

Be pretty funny if it turned out the finecast resin starts to dissolve after contact with human skin, or melts if exposed to carbonated beverages. Remember the very first edition of Titan, where the counters were printed in water-soluble ink and slowly smeared and ran as you handled them? :)

One hopes they haven't gone that cheap with their choice in resin. What I'm curious about is that since the termie next to it was fine, was it just the relative thinness of the horse's leg that made it vulnerable? Might the act of pinning it have weakened it in a critical way?

Given how fragile resin can be, I actually find that second option a bit more troubling, as it might well mean that taking steps to reduce a fig's fragility leaves it more vulnerable to this sort of thing happening.

This doesn't help with my general aversion to resin figures…

Most resin miniatures do not have these issues.

I noticed a pin sticking out of the bent leg. Is this how they usually cast resin? Or was that something the owner added for strength.

And why did they call these thing Finecast. It had fairly large gaps at what look like glue points.

8(

I was chatting to a GW shop manager this week who said he had to be careful with his window display too- although he also claimed that the same bending happened with some of the metal models as well…blimey!

Well the pin may have been involved, something to do with heat transference, heat sink, etc…. not my field.

I would wager thickness was a significant factor. As it would take less time to heat up a thin leg than a thick one.

Either way your temperatures are nothing crazy. I keep my office between 79-82 (in my house). My house is 80 to 88 during the day.

Not surprised at all, since resin will melt/bend/deform under heat. That's why they tell you to run hot water, or the heat from a blow-dryer over it, to help straighten deformed parts.

"A whole new level of Planned Obsolescence."

Crafty devils, aren't they???!!!

But, we're getting off topic. Think of the increase in GW's profits due to the switch to resin…..

I told all you youngsters to stay with metal. All this new stuff will rot your brain.

I can imagine the bean counters at GW looking at costs and bringing it up at some strategy session and one of the operational guys saying "you know we have this resin we have been working on" and all of a sudden it gets rushed to market due to the dramatic increase in metal costs.

I can also imagine that in the rush to get it to market that the evaluation of the product in warmer climates or in direct sunlight was overlooked. My guess is it didn't even appear on anyones radar as cost cutting was the big impetus to make the conversion.

There are plenty of mistakes that happen with products that don't undergo suitable testing to ensure quality throughout a products lifetime or usable life.

You don't hear about that many as companies can be very quick about dealing with these issues and having fall back plans.

However, in this business with a very vocal community of customers, as the word and pictures spread I would think that GW is going to have a publicity nightmare to deal with. Why would anyone even consider buying the resin products now with this evidence. I suspect GW will make hay with the fact that the leg was pinned but had better look into this very quickly. If the guy is putting on a hoax he could be in some serious legal trouble though.

Tick, Tick, Tick….

"ground-breaking innovation for the wargaming hobby…"

*snicker, snicker*

One really has to wonder how long they can keep this buisness model running… Where will they be in five years? Who is going to pay 25 USD for a single figure -- in a game where you need 50 to 100 figures to play? For the price of a few games of 40k, I could take a nice vacation anywhere in the world, or (gasp) buy enough miniatures to satisfy my gaming needs for at least three years. Sorry about the pseudo-rant, but I really, really don't understand why people continue to purchase these (now) mediocre products at absurd prices… maybe there IS some sort of addictive chemical in the plastic/metal/resin/packaging…?

Just what we need ,suicidal space marines with a count down to next edition.

Good thing they aren't using C4 as the casting polymer.

This happened to a friend's Warmachine warjacks (post "Full Metal Fantasy" versions). I assumed the same could happen with the new GW stuff -- even if it is a different material.

I know the Warmachine plastics are hot water bendable, so a really hot car might do it to them as well.

broken pieces that were broken in transit, plus they have lower than normal resin melting points so high, yet still in the normal range to the high end of the heat trapped inside a car, causing melting and warping, and parts of the rubber mold showing up ON the miniatures.

None of those particular problems are unique to GW. All resin molds will shed rubber at some point, either because it's old and worn out or brand-new and not working quite right so the figure is tearing it slightly till it's broken in. Breakage in transit is in the "it happens sometimes" category no matter how carefully you pack stuff (although GW blisters aren't great in that regard IMO – they rattle too much despite the sprues). And the heat in a car on a sunny summer day is going to deform any resin I've ever worked with, not just the finecast stuff. You might be okay if you shade the piece from direct sunlight, but even there I'd worry about it.

Resin just isn't as tough as metal overall. It's great for some things, casting small models with lots of fragile detail that was sculpted for no-lead metals? Not so good, really highlighting the defects.

Oh, and that weird seperation the blogger was getting, where the model just split in places? Probably interior air bubbles cooking off. The heat would cause it to expand and burst the surface open like that, but that resin must have been either seriously hot of seriously soft for that to happen.

The Mantic Games "plastic-resin" mix seems to work, and they actually reduced the price of their models compared to their metal range. I hear they will enter the SciFi arena soon. Maybe GW needs to do a bit more thinking, if it's not already too late!

I might re-enter the SF scene if Mantic live up t expectations. But I will not be spending good money on "finecost" GW figures.

If somebody produced plastic sprues of various 28mm sci-fi forces with a supporting rule set, and had some staying power (for once) they might very well take a sizeable bite out of the GW titan. Mantic needs to crank out their si-fi A.S.A.P. and take advantage of this slip up… The key to their success, IMHO, will be putting out enough different kits/factions in the beginning.

"One really has to wonder how long they can keep this buisness model running… "

Game over Man, Game Over!!!

I predict by this time in 2012, if the reports as to the resin's unsuitability are true, there will be at least a 20% reduction in their stock price, with revenues trending downward from there, unless they switch back to metal.

I'm not inclined to buy resin anyway, unless it's big terrain features… but man, I live in the desert… 120 degrees F ain't uncommon here in the summer… if you are dragging your figures to a game it's hard to keep the temperature in your car from getting… warm… and no way you'd be able to stop anywhere on the way… those things would be little puddles.
Resin just seems like a wrong material for gaming minis… even when it's well molded and properly made.

Never thought these resin minis would become collectibles, but apparently so. Looks like the survivability rate is going to be low, so they'll be rare when GW switches back to metals or plastics. But alas, I have neither the money or refrigerator space to collect them…. ;-)

"Milk in the door, beer at the bottom, lettuce in the crisper, Marines on shelf two…"

If somebody produced plastic sprues of various 28mm sci-fi forces with a supporting rule set, and had some staying power (for once) they might very well take a sizeable bite out of the GW titan.

The trick there is staying power. GW wasn't an overnight success. It spent decades building a business that included dedicated brick and mortar stores, minis and rules for their use. Expansing the races, adding novels, creating a tournament system, publishing a magazine, etc.

Anyone trying to take on GW would need to build a similar empire. And that isn't something you do in a year or two or five. And time is money … lots of it.

Mantic needs to crank out their si-fi A.S.A.P. and take advantage of this slip up… The key to their success, IMHO, will be putting out enough different kits/factions in the beginning.

Mantic are off to a good start with their fantasy range, but I think entering sci-fi at this point will be a major problem for them.

I just posted in another thread why I thought KOW wasn't getting played. Having an army with 5 foot troop options (equipment is fixed)a d, 1 cavalry, 1 war machine and 5 leader selections is almost no troop selection at all.

Compare that to an army with a dozen troop selections, each of which can be armed and armored in a variety of ways, and three or four cavalry, and a similar number of war machine options, not to mention some additional critters, and the selection is huge.

I think Mantic are selling minis that most folks are using as substitutes for more expensive troops, and they are using the minis playing that other rule system.

For Mantic to start to take a bite out of GW they need to get their game played, and that won't happen in any largte number until (IMHO) they have many more troop options from which players can choose.

If Mantic gets into sci-fi, and leaves their current range of fantasy armies with slim choices, they will never be more than a minor pothole for GW. They will spread their few resources too thin, and end up with two small ranges which cannot sustain the company like one large one could.

I think Mantic should continue to build on the fantasy ranges. Add new armies, and add new troop options to their existing armies. They cannot take advantage of the GW resin slip because a company with 100+ million will figure this out, and either switch their formula, drastically improve their Q&A, or revert back to metal, and then move on. Probably all within 12 months, 6 months if they act quickly.

There's just no way Mantic can release, say, six armies, with 15 troop options each, in 12 months.

From what I hear the GW resin is similar to what the Kraken guys used for their Alkemy figures.

You could reposition and bend the Alkemy figs after holding them in hot water. Very nice for the tails on the cat people.

So I can easily see heat being a problem.

Not that I dislike resin figures as a *concept*, but it certainly seems as though this move is going to sour a lot of people in and out of the industry on it, given the results.

And I'm not wishing GW any ill beyond what they bring on their own heads. Got to say, this seems to have been a decision taken by the same 'suits' who when asked by the BBC interviewer in the show "Working Lunch" if they could meet some of the designers and casters, said with a horrified expression "no, we couldn't . . . think of the smell. . . "

A marketing ploy to cause a run on existing metal product is absolutely brilliant. Stockholders in the "green" camp can appreciate the biodegradability environment-friendly aspect of their investment. Those who would like to leave their treasures to the next generation will be disappointed.

This is a Haiku waiting to happen.

Resin mini man
small brittle
dust for cash

:)

Melting soldier toy
come summer
buy metal now

Here in Oz, summer temperatures (outdoors) regularly run to high 30's and in Canberra 42-45C

Thats 100- 115 F, and temperatures in cars or enclosed spaces will be 10-15 C warmer.

These things will be puddles…

I think perhaps JSchutt has it right…..

If so, simply brilliant, but once customers learn the truth, they will not be happy!

I don't think there's any reason to think it is environmentally friendly, it is, after all, destroying itself, we don't know what it will release into the environment and of course it has to be replaced by something which will require more energy to make, package and transport which will itself die and have to be replaced etc.
I would have liked to think that minis were the one place I could hide from "$50 inkjet syndrome". Obviously not.

Well, guys this news sucks. It means that what could have been a stride forward for gaming materials isn't.

Just want to disagree about troop selection in KoW. You have a lot of options, all of those matter (which is different from, for example, WHFB, where some of the equipment choices just dont do any difference.) I think you will end up with 50 or so differnt choices per army list – and all of them will play differently.

Mantic will continue to piggyback on GW until they have enough options to stand on their own.
This isn't a bad thing. As long as they keep providing cheaper well made alternatives to GW product while profitting they will win.
Never forget the dozens of companies that have tried to take on GW in the past. They all made some fatal mistake.

You have a lot of options, all of those matter (which is different from, for example, WHFB, where some of the equipment choices just dont do any difference.)

Respectfully disagree. Without getting into specific units, a typical equipment option for a basic rank and file unit is this:

#1 arm with 1 weapon and no shield (at 1 point per shield, a unit of 30-40 means a savings of that many points, and that can add up to being able to field another unit)

#2 arm with 1 weapon and a shield (your troops just became 16% more able to survive a typical blow), or

#3 arm with two weapons and no shield (you will get in double the number of attacks, but be more vulnerable to their attacks.

The above does NOT even address the times when your choice of weapon is up to you. You can take an axe, or a spear. The axe might hit at increased strength, but the spear being long and pointy gives you more attacks from the back rows. ANd what about an option for a two-handed weapon. Eliminates the option of a shield, but strikes even harder.

Let's say you are going to face chaos, with lots and lots of toughness and armor. Being able to hit harder than usual may make the difference between your wimpy guys just clanking off their armor, and killing things.

WFB – for all its faults – give the gamer plenty of options, decisions before and during the game, which I don't see in KoW.

And I don't want or need KoW to mimic WFB. I really LOVE (for example) the idea that you don't pluck minis away, they remain until the unit is dead

And I see why they have static troop selections – you don't need to agonize when you assemble your minis – glue them with one weapon and no shield, one weapon and shield, or two weapons. I hope Mantic keeps this simplicity.

But I'd like the option of more than just Orcs with axes, or Orcs with even bigger axes. And I'd be fine with the "package" price for a unit, but how about pricing a unit for 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35 and 40, instead of just 10, 20 and 40?

So a bit more depth on the bench, and a bit more army build tailoring options, and I think they would attract many more potential players.

I predict that the next generation of GW resin will be water-based. And will be appropriately nicknamed "SlimeCast" after the mini gets wet…. ;-)