"The Main Problem on TMP" Topic

Ace from Outer Space wrote ( TMP link ):

I think the main problem on TMP is that people are just not honest with their criticism enough of the time. Someone posts beautifully painted minis and everyone says bravo. Then someone else posts some awfully painted minis and we still say bravo.

Now I know we all just want to be constructive in our criticisms and don't want to oppress or put people off, but aplying superlatives to dross is no more constructive than polishing faeces.

Do you agree?

I couldn't possibly comment.

In critique of his thinking, I say, "Bravo".

Oh wait,,,

I agree, but if you don't like something don't just say that it sucks. Be constructive give the poster some advise on how to fix the problem that you see with the mini. Don't just put the poster and his or her abilities down.

Also Polishing faeces can be constructive

link

That is by no means the main problem on TMP.

But staying on topic, you don't have to be jerk about it. It is possible to praise someone's efforts for what they are without being dishonest or too gushing in your praise, and on the other hand there is no need to be insulting for the sake of it.

BME, on the other hand, has a history here and elsewhere. Everything he gets he brings on himself, he practically begs for it.

Yeah, TMP has many problems, but that's really not high on the list.

That is by no means the main problem on TMP.

I'm with Plynkes.

If I criticize someone's opinion, like that of Ace from Outer Space's, is that a personal attack? 'Cuz I think that's dumb.

Personally, if I see someone has bothered to paint minis and put them up for display, I'd rather be encouraging of the effort. Everyone's minis have sucked at some point. You do more, you get better.

In my case, you do more, you get better, then you get lazy, you bite off bigger projects than you can finish, so then you get slapdash.

Nuke all of the Napoleonics boards. That would solve a lot of problems on TMP.

I tend to agree with darthfozzywig. We should be free to state our beliefs without regard to whether someone might be offended. Sure we play with toys, but are we children?

As to criticizing someone's painting output. I don't do that. I try to operate on the basis of "if you can't say something positive; don't say anything".

It's a problem, yeah… but not the main problem, more like a symptom of the real issue… which isn't looking for a cure.

If I had a nickel for every time I did NOT say what I really thought…
I could probably get a half gallon of gas, or maybe mail a letter.

Who am I kidding?

I try to refrain from comments on someone's paint jobs, if they are amateurs like me.

It's the stuff that is put out by people expecting to get paid for trash that I feel is fair game.

Ditto what Plynkes said. The whole post.

I have not had any problem with honest critiques here.

I sold some painted figures I listed as "tabletop quality." Nothing fancy, but will look fine on the table.

However, the buyer was gushing with praise over the quality of the paint job.

So I posted the photos here to see if the collective group saw the excellence the buyer saw or to confirm my suspicions I am a mediocre painter.

Those who responded felt embarrassed to say I was a mediocre painter, but I did ask for it. Naturally, they also gave me tips as to how improve my painting skills which I took to heart. However, I still can't get the eyes right.

Thing is, one persons bad paint job is another mans good one.
I have seen many that I can better and many I could never come close too.

I've never noticed any over-arching problem of people being too nice about, well, ANYTHING on TMP. If it can be criticized, bitched about, or lambasted in any way then that's what will happen. Occasionally I will see fairly bad paint jobs get an "attaboy" from a few guys, but it's perfectly possible that those posters really think it's a good job. After all, everybody has varying skill levels and very, very different ways of perceiving things. Just look at the guys who think Thin Red Line or Gods and Generals are good movies… 8)=

Thin Red Line is a good movie.

I'm too scared to take Gods and Generals out of its box, though, after the roasting it got here. Good thing it only cost me a quid.

I remember when I was a freshman in college and I answered a question with a very rational and well thought out response. The very well accomplished professor stated how well thought and honestly he thought I came by that conclusion and that it was almost a shame that it was incorrect. He could have easily dismissed and brushed me aside.

Contrast that with the responses people get here on occasion, whether they are asking a question or stating their own opinions. Some of these responses are by very interesting, intelligent, and well read people. However they are delivered in such a rude and abrasive manner that it smacks either of unneeded insecurity or a need to over-compensate for their google-fu doctorate. Imagine all the possibly constructive members that have been lost because of this culture.

I don't know of a fix, its the way of the internet. Simple manners and the idea of starting a solution with yourself seem like alien concepts. If a person is insulted they feel a need to escalate the hostilities to a point were everyone just looks like an donkey. Its all like some tragically poor off-Broadway production of internet machismo. Its sad, and I myself am not always innocent.

Maybe if one cannot be bothered or suffer the time it takes to be polite, they shouldn't suffer the time to post. But for goodness's sake, have some humility.

I despise false praise in all forms (although when your wife/girlfriend says, "does this make me look fat?" I'd advise caution!)…

Maybe the word we're looking for here is "TACT"…

Consider an imaginary poster who says, "What do you think of my newly painted dwarf hero?"…and it looks like a 3 yr old painted it. Possible responses include:

1) That's a piece of ****!!
2) I wouldn't use it in my games!
3) You might want to try that again…
4) I would try to get a little more detail in there. Maybe you could try the quick dip method for some easy shading…

Each of these says the same thing…that you don't care for the piece. But they use an increasing level of TACT and encouragement.

Or, if this is the 50th time they've posted something that falls under 1) you might suggest they look into hiring a painting service!

It's funny how there seems to be as many people who think we are too rude as there are who think we are too polite.

Now I don't know whether to be more polite or a bit ruder.

However, I still can't get the eyes right.

A few years (okay, more than a decade) back, I decided to let "tabletop distance" determine "tabletop quality". Haven't painted eyes on a human mini since.

I don't know of a fix, its the way of the internet.

At least we aren't 4chan. They make a habit of rude, crude, and brutal posting that makes Frothers look rather tame. I will NOT post examples, as I don't want them taking root…

Pertaining to the topic someones "Bravo" can be "Ugh!" To the next person.

Kind of like trying to say which paintings or sculptures look good. It is all up the the viewer.

Now off topic, this is hardly the biggest problem on TMP.

Good point Ranger.

I remember while coaching how important it is to assume the correct manner is to sandwhich a criticism with positives whether in speech or writing. I know some people like to make this into a joke or a bad pun, but I found it very effective for all ages and parents.

Not only do you not slap somebody in the face with rudeness, but it has been proven to increase listening and retention.

Now, after knowing a certain kid or parent for years you may develop a rapport and understanding that only swearing like a sailor and doing a Mike Ditka immitation will work with that individual. :)

@Connard Sage – "I couldn't possibly comment."

But you did. ;-)

@der alte Fritx – "Nuke all of the Napoleonics boards. That would solve a lot of problems on TMP."

Much as I love Napoleonics, I tend to agree with you. Better would be to just nuke some posters.

@Plynkes – "That is by no means the main problem on TMP.
But staying on topic, you don't have to be jerk about it. It is possible to praise someone's efforts for what they are without being dishonest or too gushing in your praise, and on the other hand there is no need to be insulting for the sake of it."

Right on! The last seven words are the key. I didn't even get in on the B,B&B discussion but I see so much negativity here simply because they can. Perhaps they have the mistaken belief it empowers them. That is the main problem on TMP IMHO.

As usual, Inari7 nails it.

It's not in my nature to be critical of people or to hurt their feelings, so most of the time I bite my tongue, hold off on the critique and wait for the urge to comment to pass.

I can see Outer Space's point, but I'm still going to praise people for their effort, even if I also offer ways in which I think their product could be improved.

I would say it's a bigger problem that Ace sees that as "the main problem"

The main problem on TMP is all the s who could start an argument in an empty room. The secondary problem is the s who reply to what they think someone has posted rather what they actually have posted.

Type 1 often inhabits the same body as type 2

Compulsory reading and comprehension tests for all members should sort it

Slightly OT, but Ranger needs a warning.

When a man asks you "Do these jeans make me look fat?" That is a question, he will buy you a beer if you say " Hell you are 5 years older, buy one size bigger"

When a woman asks "Do these jeans make me look fat?", this is NEVER a question. It is a causus bellum. You have done something unpardonable but she cant make an issue of it, she has now shot some border guards and blamed you.

You now have two choices: a war of anhialtion, or appeasment.

Never imagine that you have been asked a question.

Some guys minis arent to your standard, tell him they are painted to "Wargames standard".

I rarely ever see anything online that is painted badly. Not everything is painted to the same level of detail, but most is painted neatly, cleanly, and looks good to me. I may think a mini looks especially good because of the color choices, not because of how many or how few layers of shading there are. I'm a wargamer, not an art critic.

It's a tired old cliche, but it's true. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Grizzlymc, thanks for the heads up! In some cases, I suppose an outright lie is less harmful than a tactful truth! :)

For me, if they are being paid to paint. they are fair game. But someone posting figs they painted up for fun. Then some tact needs to be used. Then again I've found the ones that bash the most are usually the worse at the very same thing.

How about making a way to "rate" a poster's comments. Express the posts rating as a percentage as well as a posters overall rating. Give everyone the ability to hide posts (ignore) by users under a certain percentage (yes similar to a stifle but with a percentage dictating automatic stifling)

This would give the TMP community to rate the quality of posts and I suspect you might see some of the "bad" behavior start to decline as the users see their ratings plummet for posting nonsense, being a jerk, etc.

If I said that was the dumbest thing I had read on TMP would that be a personal attack?

Meh, Bravo to the poster is what I shall commit to.

"The secondary problem is the Bleeped texts who reply to what they think someone has posted rather what they actually have posted."

2nd

How about making a way to "rate" a poster's comments. Express the posts rating as a percentage as well as a posters overall rating. Give everyone the ability to hide posts (ignore) by users under a certain percentage (yes similar to a stifle but with a percentage dictating automatic stifling)

This would give the TMP community to rate the quality of posts and I suspect you might see some of the "bad" behavior start to decline as the users see their ratings plummet for posting nonsense, being a jerk, etc.

Which the thin-skinned will use as a tool to 'punish' any slight, real or imagined. Much in the way stifles are used now.

Then

…watch, awestruck, as re-ups for Supporting Memberships dwindle.

That's symptomatic of the tertiary problem on TMP, namely the authoritarian minority who wish to dictate what others will do or say.

Yeah, that's a terrible idea. Forums and comments sections with that function tend to endlessly dwell on the function itself to the detriment of what they were supposed to be commenting on. If you want to fill TMP up with whiny posters whinging about all the 'thumbs down' their last post got then it's a good way to go.

It would be just another way to make TMP be more about TMP and less about miniatures. We're too bloody far along that road as it is. That is a much bigger problem here than people saying something is good when it is really average.

I don't think it's dishonesty, per se.

I certainly can't speak for anyone else, but if I post a compliment, it's because I genuinely like the figure. If I don't like it, I won't say anything at all. However, if it were a poll question where I was asked to rate the figure on a scale of one to ten, then I'd be brutally honest. Similarly, if they just want a critique and want to know what they've done wrong (or right), I'll share my honest opinion. If you check my post, I've also recently done that WRT rules that someone has written.

But I don't think that most of the people who post photos on TMP are really looking for that kind of critique. It's often because they worked really hard on it and are proud of the job they did (even if it does look like crap to me), and just want to show it off to some fellow gamers. It's somewhat intimidating to present photos of your latest artistic endeavor to a bunch of people you've never met. If a guy does that, why should I crush his spirit? Why discourage the guy from further efforts? I'd rather encourage him in some tiny way to do a better job on his next figure.

why should I crush his spirit?

We have CMoN for that, after all.

The main problem with TMP?

Not enough posts from John the OFM.

After taking a couple of lambastings on TMP I take the advice of 'if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all'. I thought my criticisms were polite and minor (one regarding a rule set and the other a painting style, not a particular paint job), but you'd think I had insulted someone's mother. May be the cowardly way, but I don't feel like fighting those fights.

None of us are forced to paint minis: they're, one way or another, a labour of love.

Not surprisingly, *any* criticism will upset quite a few.

I choose not to publically comment on someone's minis just as I eschew judging baby contests.

Any painted mini is better then an unpainted figure put on the table.

If I dont like somthing I dont comment. I think its rude to diss someones work if they like it. I comment if its good. I was always told if you have nothing nice to say, shut your hole. But I dont see it as a problem if someone says they like somthing that is crap. Thats just called being polite in my book.

Wal Mart has 3x Reading Glasses for less than $30. USD
I use these to work, and my eye balls are fine according to my Doctor.

"If I dont like somthing I dont comment. I think its rude to diss someones work if they like it. I comment if its good. I was always told if you have nothing nice to say, shut your hole. But I dont see it as a problem if someone says they like somthing that is crap. Thats just called being polite in my book."

Best way to stay happy.
I learned this the hard way…over time.
Enjoy what YOU LIKE, and pass over the rest.

…just as I eschew judging baby contests.

Well, art is one thing, but babies are quite another. I mean, art is the product of toil and sweat and concentration. Nobody knows where babies come from. They just show up unannounced and act like they're God's gift to the world, or something. They end up taking over your whole house with all their arbitrary rules: Feed the baby. Clean the baby. Don't wake the baby up. Stop shouting at the baby. Stop poking the baby with a stick. And God forbid you ever try to get an honest day's work out of them.

If you ask me, babies need to be taken down a peg or two.

Do you agree?

At times.

The community can benefit more when shameless self-promoters get some Reality(tm)injected into their spiel beyond the more common repetition of buddy endorsements and affirmation. A balance of opinion gives the objective reader more viewpoints to consider, rather than Emperor's New Clothes syndrome.

This happens, but I don't think it's a problem. I've never seen this site as a place to look for true critique unless I was asking for it. That's just the nature of the place and it's neither a strength nor a weakness. It is what it is.

I don't think it's the same people saying bravo is it? If you're a ty modeler, mediocre modeling looks pretty good. If you're an accomplished modeler already, you're a lot harder to impress.

I distribute kudos only when I feel it's warranted – if I have nothing nice or constructive to say I don't bother typing.