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"Russian Jagers/Chasseurs confusion" Topic


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AlexanderIII30 May 2011 10:04 a.m. PST

Are Russian Jagers same as Russian Chasseurs?

I'm unsure what the difference is between the two.

I have Chasseurs (pre 1808) and want to use them as skirmishers for GdB Deluxe edition but I don't know if I can formed them into battalions like jager battalions.

Also if I can form them into a battalion, do I need to base them like regular line infantry (i.e., same frontage as line) on 60x40 mm or keep them or ok to keep them on skirmish bases 20x60mm?

Thanks

14Bore30 May 2011 10:13 a.m. PST

jagers = foot, chasseurs = horsemen, thats my take

aecurtis Fezian30 May 2011 10:37 a.m. PST

Eger (Russian) is derived from "jaeger".

Jaeger (German) means hunter.

Chasseur (French) means hunter.

Anyone want to take a shot at connecting the dots?

Allen

Connard Sage30 May 2011 10:46 a.m. PST

Anyone want to take a shot at connecting the dots?

Figure manufacturers should call light infantry what they are and not try to get cute with foreign names in an attempt to impress the masses?

CS, who also knows the Spanish, Portuguese and Italian words for 'hunter' (note; that's a statement, not a question)

AlexanderIII30 May 2011 10:53 a.m. PST

oops sorry I meant to say my Chasseurs are foot and not part of any cav unit. These are from Victrix and include sharpshooters, drummer, musician and command figures etc. that are all on foot. So I take these guys function as purely light infantry

Florida Tory30 May 2011 11:07 a.m. PST

these guys function as purely light infantry

That depends on your rules. In addition to the 3 jaeger companies, the Russian jaeger battalions had one jaeger grenadier company that had one platoon of grenadiers and one platoon of schutzen. Some rules will treat them all the same, others, not so much. I don't know whether that makes a difference in GdB. (I'm using the terminology from Column, Line and Square which are the rules I use. They do differentiate the movement and combat capabilities amongst all 3 types of Jaegers.)

In any event, if you are using the castings from a larger scale, there will be minor differences in the uniforms.

Rick

aecurtis Fezian30 May 2011 11:35 a.m. PST

"Figure manufacturers should call light infantry what they are and not try to get cute with foreign names in an attempt to impress the masses?"

It's not just figure manufacturers, although in this case Victrix chose "chasseurs" rather than either "jaeger" or "eger".

How many English-using writers on the Napoleonic wars use pure tranliterations of Russian terms rather than employing the terminology of other languages?

(Yes, I realize that the Russians themselves, often playing catch-up, have employed considerable numbers of loan words--and depending on the preference of the particular administration, flip-flopped between French and German terms for the same thing.)

How many writers on Russian and Soviet military history know that the Russian word that they have used their convenient dictionaries to translate into English actually has a distinct meaning from its English counterpart?

(How many know why the Russian word for railway station sounds very much like the name of a British auto manufacturer? How many know where the very jolly intentional erros can be found in Her Majesty's Stationery Office's various editions of the Russian-English and English-Russian dictionary of military terms?)

Allen

Connard Sage30 May 2011 11:57 a.m. PST

How many know why the Russian word for railway station sounds very much like the name of a British auto manufacturer?

Vauxhall?

McLaddie30 May 2011 12:13 p.m. PST

I would imagine that Jagers are the same as chasseurs. It all depends on who is translating what. For instance, Florida Troy about mentions there is a Shutzen company in each Jager battalion. While there was a light company in the Jager battalion, they didn't use the German word for light--but we know what is meant all the same.

European Military men did the same thing across the languages during and after the Napolenic wars. Bressonet in his study of Jena and Auerstadt described Prussian skirmishers as Tirailleurs instead of Fusiliers, Jagers or Schutzen…or even line troops. Creates some confusion, what?

Duhesme calls the Russian Jagers 'Chasseurs' in his 1807 book, so I am sure that others are allowed to do the same.

Bill

aecurtis Fezian30 May 2011 12:28 p.m. PST

"Vauxhall?"

Yep. Now why?

Yes, you can Google it.

Allen

Angel Barracks30 May 2011 12:32 p.m. PST

You remember the old BR "vauxhall duddeston" station CS?

Connard Sage30 May 2011 12:36 p.m. PST

Yep. Now why?

No idea. I know the Russian for railway station is 'voksal', it's one of those useless facts that I picked up in my railway modelling days, but until your post I'd never made a connection.

You remember the old BR "vauxhall duddeston" station CS?

It's still there. It's lost the Vauxhall :)

picture

Lovely, innit?

AlexanderIII30 May 2011 1:25 p.m. PST

Thanks all…I have a somewhat clearer idea now between the two terms. Glad to see that the terms are interchangeable.

Talk about getting lost in translation :-)

aecurtis Fezian30 May 2011 2:08 p.m. PST

And as to mounted or foot, that's why their mode of transportation was often designated in their title, in diverse languages: chasseur a pied, chasseur a cheval, jaeger zu fuss, jaeger zu pferd, etc.

It's also confusing when writers apply the term "riflemen" to those only partially equipped with rifles, or those with none.

Allen

Grizzlymc30 May 2011 2:16 p.m. PST

Alan

'It's also confusing when writers apply the term "riflemen" to those only partially equipped with rifles, or those with none.'

In the Napoleonic context, riflemen without rifles and Currasiers short of armour are irritating. But in fairness, we live with Grenadiers, Horse Grenadiers (My mental picture is like something out of punch) Dragoons, voltigeurs (??), Carabineers.

I agree that it is wiser to use English well, that the pewter figure's native language badly.

Grizzlymc30 May 2011 5:00 p.m. PST

I withdraw my last sentence. I have just finished basing some Cazadores de caballo and shudder at the translation.

basileus6631 May 2011 3:58 a.m. PST

Grizz

Just a minor correction: "Cazadores a caballo"

A 'Cazador de Caballo' would be the guy that hunted the horses :):)

Jokes aside, how those guys would be called in English? I tried to find a translation, but…

Connard Sage31 May 2011 6:36 a.m. PST

Hunters on horseback?
Mounted hunters?
Huntsmen?
Light cavalry with carbine?

:)

Grizzlymc31 May 2011 6:38 a.m. PST

Light dragoons

Grizzlymc31 May 2011 6:41 a.m. PST

Bas – you are of course correct, been speaking Spanish for 16 years and I still mix up a and de.

The English speaking world never used the huntsman thing for light infantry and cavalry. Except for irregular lights who were often called rangers.

Gunfreak Supporting Member of TMP31 May 2011 7:19 a.m. PST

I avoid these problems by simley using color.


Jegers/Rifles= Green guys
Cazadores =brown guys
Russian Line infantry = green and white guys
French legere=blue guys
French fusiliers= blue and white guys
British linered and white or Red and gray guys
British highlanders = the sexy guys

Ect. Ect.

XV Brigada31 May 2011 7:26 a.m. PST

@basileus66

Literal translations of terms often make no sense. I prefer to see the original cazadores/chasseurs/jäger used with an explanation if necessary. British army equivalents for infantry would be rifles if so armed or just light infantry if not. If cavalry they are the same types, on the whole, as light dragoons.

Bill

Murvihill31 May 2011 8:48 a.m. PST

Just to make it more confusing, French was the language of the nobility throughout Europe, so maybe a Russian writing in French referred to his Jager regiment as Chassuers.

Cerdic31 May 2011 2:20 p.m. PST

Gunfreak,

No offence to the Scots but I have never met a Scotsman that I found sexy…..

Gunfreak Supporting Member of TMP31 May 2011 2:40 p.m. PST

link

Sean Connery voted sexiest man of the year i 80 somthing, votet sexiest man of the centuary in 99

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