"Any Borodino topographical maps?" Topic

Hi,
My 1:1 or 2:1 project soldiers on. I'm currently working on making another 30 molds so that I can do this more effectively. It'll cost about $15 USD I figure for the silicon putty, but will be well worth it. Some of the old molds are getting a little beat already, and I realized that if I could do a set of 50 molds at once (3500 figures) it's a LOT faster than doing 25 twice… not sure why. Anyways, if I can get up to 50 molds I could knock out both armies in 1:1 pretty fast, maybe in a week, or even over one insane weekend, then move onto the cav.

I've also begun thinking about how to make the terrain boards for the game. Obviously the board it going to be huge. I'm thinking about showing everything between Utitza and Borodino village. As it works out my figures height is about exactly the width of standard foam core. Which means that every layer of foam core is about 2 meters, which will make re-creating the natural contours of the battle field easy enough. So to that end I was wondering if there are any good topographic maps of the battle field that go down to 10 meter contours or even lower? I did some google searches and couldn't find anything.

My plan, since I'll have to transport it from LA to PA, is to make the foam board contours, paint it over with silicon putty and then remove the foam core, which should make it light, bendable and paintable. At the con I can put bunched up paper beneath it to support the hills. Other terrain will be dropped onto it as needed. I need to do some experiments, but I think it could work. I've found that silicon putty is a pretty amazing substance!

Try Google maps and terrain

Well, there is this, but, no real terrain contours.

picture

Here's a pic of a model of the field at the visitor centre.

picture

And some other photos here too

link

Everything is pretty much long shallow slopes, which is quite hard to model effectively – in war games terms it's flat for movement with good views from higher ground.

Also, have you tried google earth, the ground is quite unspoilt by buildings built post the battle so this is a good place to start (providing it wasn't cloudy when the satelite went over).

Hope this helps.

James

You should be able to find the old Russian military topographic maps easily enough.

They come in 1:200,000, 1:100,000, 1:50,000 and 1:25,000, but the smaller scales are much harder to find. I generally find the larger scales work well enough. The main issue is locating the exact map reference you need.

Do you need paper, or will electronic form do? Paper can be bought, but is expensive.

I think the reference code in the Soviet 1:100,000 series is n36-024.

Try this link

What a weird website. Why does it ask you to type in one of those security letter/number things when you download a map? I think I've spotted it but its not quite accurate enough. I wonder if the US military has one… I used to deal with maps all the time when I was an intel analyst but I never got them off the real internet… maybe I should email Igwarg for help with this…

Why does it ask you to type in one of those security letter/number things when you download a map?

To stop autobots or spiders. Basically to sort the human from the non-human.

I assume it is more keeping the bandwidth down. Otherwise the search engine spiders will keep downloading all the (very large) files.

If you have contacts in the military they should be able to get those Soviet maps easily enough. They may even have the really detailed 1:25000 that are hard to find.

(I see, revisiting the site, that a dozen people have been and downloaded the map since I put the link up!)

Does it give the detail you want?

Incidentally, try also typing in "Borodino" in link

That gives an idea of the vegetation and general look.

link
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files.mail.ru/BNSH7B
--- Карта русского офицера.jpg
--- Карта французов.jpg

I can find modern topos, I am pretty sure, but their accuracy for 1812 I would not be too sure about. Let me know.

Amicalement.

There some great information there, when refight Borodino there will have to be a rethink on the terrain.

bgbboogie--
Don't I know it! When you get down to that kind of scale everything that is fudgeable in a normal war game becomes a glaring, ugly problem. For instance one tree is one tree at 1:1… everything has to be scaled down to the meter. I think I can do it though, it'll just take a bit more time. I still have a year to get it ready though…

Sotnik- if you can find modern topo maps that'd be awesome. From a photo I saw of the Borodino museum it seems like the French were fighting uphill across most of the battlefield, and if so I'd like to show it. One problem with the old maps is that they don't show the height of hills and ridges relative to one another. Since the 200 year 1812 anniversary only comes once I'd like to do it as good as I can. Heck, maybe I should call the Guinness people to see if I can get some sort of world record for the largest wargame ever played, on a number of figures basis? No one should be able to touch this, which'll be about 200k if I get it done at 1:1. The problem will be making it playable…

Thanks for posting all those maps, btw, they are pretty useful in and of themselves. So was the google maps photo, although it seems that the battlefield is marred by a bunch of parking lots or some other cement encrusted areas now. That of course doesn't help me either. Maybe I could email the museum or something with my plan?

The battlefield area was developed for farming in the late 1800's with lots of new villages, roads, clearances, grading, etc. Then it was also developed more after the Revolution, and was a battlefoeld with some prepared defense during the war agianst the fascists.
I will see what I can find for modern topos, if you will bear in mind these factors.

One of the linked maps was pre-Revolution topo :
picture
I may ask around and see if I can easily locate more pre-1917 topos.

here's the N-36-024 modern topo mentioned above :
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It was created at 1:100000

I will continue to look for the smaller scales.

Next, the 1:50000 --
These are N-36-024-01, N-36-024-02, N-36-024-03, N-36-024-04 (also can be indexed as N-36-024-А, -Б, -В AND -Г).

link
Click on the link that says "Скачать файл" (amazingly, this is "Downlaod the file" in Russian)
Unzip the .zip compressed file. The one you will want will be in the directory (folder) named "n36-06". There are in both .gif and .map formats.

I think that these squares were cut again down to 1:25000 by the Soviet Army, but published generally as 1:30000 or 1:33000 with some of the "tactical" detail smudged out. Built-up area maps were often 1:20000 (1cm = 2km) or 1:10000 (1cm = 1km) or smaller, but I doubt anyone did these around Borodino in the normal course of geographical survey.

And remeber, I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANYTHING YOU DOWNLOAD FROM A RUSSIAN WEBSITE or ANY BAD THING RUSSIAN CYPER-CRIMINALS DO TO YOU. Please "use protection". Please use Linux or Mac OS, actually. Keep your real personal and financial data away from contact with the internet. I surf the "Russian internet" all the time, do eCommerce, etc. It is generally 100% safe. But, I try to "drive carefully".

Ok, downloading now…
With some trepidation after the warning. BUt this is a Mac plus has anti-viral stuff on it. It shouldn't be a problem…

bloomheller22,

I had no problem either. But I just didn't want to folks to think my internet "neighborhood" was a safe little garden. It isn't.

The .gif frmat version wil open in Preview. The .map versions I have no idea. Never saw them before.

I can't find the 1:25000 cut online. These will be indexed as N-36-024-01-01, N-36-024-01-02, N-36-024-01-03 …. or or N-36-024-А-а, N-36-024-А-б, N-36-024-А-в ….
There will be, naturally, 16 of them for covering the 1:100000 version known as N-36-024.
But I would be really hesitant about any detail revealed in comparing 1:50000 to 1:25000 – it is just too likely that such a small feature was not really 200 years old.

Amicalement.

I've just come back from a site visit and was surprised how flat the ground is. What the visit could not tell me was the ground finish in 1812. My guide said arable farmland and this is supported by the panorama painting showing strip farming behind the fletches. Would the fletches area and in front have been similar? in September this would presumably meant turned earth post crop removal/picking.