"Rapid Prototyping Dollies!" Topic

Over the past few years there has been much talk about using rapid prototyping machines to produce figures!

Most people know that the CAV giant robots are done that way.

Well I have started using rapid prototyped figure as dollies on a regular basis now. The machine I have access too is not good enough to produce detail good enough to do finished figures at 28mm, but is certainly up to producing dollies.

It gives me a range of poses that can be turned out very rapidly:-

10 minutes in Poser to pose the figure.

10 mins in Rhino to convert and scale it for 28mm.

5 mins to process the file to run on the RP machine.

30 mins in the machine itself.

10 mins cleaning up the piece out of the machine.

There you have it, one dolly ready for detailing.
The plastic it uses is strong enough to withstand a vulcanising press (especially once you have the greenstuff on top). What more could you want.

I reckon it saves about between 25% and 50% of the scuplting time and the approximate cost (for a 28mm figure) is £2.50, at least where I'm using it it is.

I really hope that RP is one of those magic technologies that rapidly declines in price over time. It really is the ultimate realization of the hobby--the ability to produce your own custom models, at your whim. Cheap desktop RP technology with durable output would change miniatures as we know them forever.

We'd still have to paint them, though.

At the moment the pieces I am getting off the machine have aheavy wood grain effect (they are built up in layers), so it would be no good for finished figures at the moment.

I am sure that some other machines could probably do afiner job though and if not now just give it ayear or two.

Also as you say the price is dropping year in year, the machine I have access to has dropped in price over the last couple of years somewhere between £10,000 and £20,000.

The wood grain effect is great for me at the moment as it gives a good surface for the greenstuff to key to.
I am also considering doing a wood nymph or golem straight out of the machine.

It would be great to be able to do Poser Characters in 28mm! :-)

I like the way you are using it but I have a question.

How can it save up to half the sculpting time? It takes me about 15 minutes to pose a wire armature. It takes 10-20 hours to sculpt a figure.

Granted I am using cast armatures so I don't have to make them from scratch each time. They only cost $1.00 each (at retail). Any sculptor doing a range for a company can get armatures cast for free.

The only real advantage I can see is the ability to adjust a pose in the computer before printing.

Also, on a side note, Be very careful who casts any piece with plastic inside. I have seen sculpts come out squashed because temp and pressure were too high during vulcanizing.

I would love to see some pictures of the finished armatures before sculpting. Good luck with this.

Jeff

But wouldn't RTV take care of the preassure/temp factor, Jeff?

I mean, that is a possibility for this new rapido prototyping dollies, or isn't it?

You are one of those in the know.

Next thing you know, you'll be downlading miniatures and printing them at home on your 3D printer...

Even making the armatures fron scratch, I can do them in 10-20 minutes each. And I know the metal won't break under the heat and pressure. The only way I can see the rapid prototyping saving time or money is if you investment cast a master of the prototype to use in making a mold for many metal copies. Don't get me wrong, I have been a big fan of rapid prototyping since I started architecture classes and I think it has great potential especially for harder edged inorganic subjects. I am just simply saying that the regular metal dolly or armature is quicker saving both time and money.

Rodrick

To make an armature from scratch out of wire takes from 5-10 minutes, less if you have armatures cast and all you have to do is bend them into the pose you want. These metal armatures can be bent to get the arms out of the way as you do sculpting on the torso. Such would not be so with plastic.

I am not clear what the time savings would be here. Your "dollie" takes 65 minutes to complete. A wire armature takes 5-10 minutes to complete. I doubt a plastic armature could be reposed if the pose needed adjusting after the sculpt was started.

What would be the temperature at which the plastic would soften and allow the figure to loose its structural integrity? Most firms here in the US do not want to do RTV, so having a material that is appropriate for the heat type of vulcanization process, is pretty much a necessity.

Sandra Garrity

to Javier B aka DoktorZinieztro

RTV is not an option for casting at the levels of manufacturing. It is not cost effective and is suited for one offs or very low volumes.

jeff

Oh... That's true, but for mere "dollies", that could be one option, right? I mean, we don't need "manufacturing" volumes of dollies, do we?

I think I might chicken out from sculpting my own lines, if the things get more and more complicated to just start doing. =/

Even if rapid prototyping is not as time or cost efficient, you have to admit that it has wire armatures beat hands down on the coolness and geek factors. :-)

Actually, this made me think of an article on rapid prototyping I saw at least a decade ago on a future tech show called Beyond 2000. The machine they showed worked by illuminating precise paths in the surface of a photoreactive goop with a UV laser, then raising the hardened layer, shooting the next layer, etc. Was AMAZING to watch a sculpture rise like magic from a puddle of slime.

I wonder what sort of system the current models use?

Doug

elsyrsyn:

Google for "rapid prototyping" and the first .edu link has some good intro information on the different kinds of RP methods, as well as links to systems and services. There are about half a dozen RP methods, of which laser sintering is one.

One advantage to using Poser is that it might help get more realisitc poses and proportions. The 3D Poser models are quite good and I would think that by using them as a base you would avoid the short-waisted sculpts, misproportioned arms and legs that often occur even from the best sculptors.

Here are some Poser Links for thsoe interested:

daz3d.com
renderosity.com
runtimedna.com

I looked into Rapid-prototyping 5 or 6 years ago, but at that time it seemed to expensive ( and I hadn't discovered 3D Graphics either ) . This linke between Poser/Rhino and RP is very exciting stuff. How good is the BEST RP, I wonder…

Sorry I have not replyed earlier to some of your questions.

On the time to make thing, take the actual machine time out of the equation as this is automatic and I go away and do something else during this process.

This pretty much halves the 65 minute thing. Alright this is still alot longer than bending a dollie. However if you are not using a dollie and you use a wire armature (either soldered or twisted then build up the green to get the basic anatomy right this becomes a feasable alternative.

OK problem is I use dollies anyway so why bother with RP?

I find that the figures that come out of the machine are well proportioned and as they are basically very skinny (ie thin natural proportions as opposed to the normal 28mm figure that has thick arms/legs and large head/hand/feet.
Therefore they are ideal to sculpt straight onto.

I have found that they have helped me develop my knowledge of anatomy and I am atlot more confident to get the proportions right even when going back to wire armatures now.

As for the problem with the plastic and melting temps etc. I was initally concerned about this after the plastic invovled is a thermo-plastic, however the nozzles on the rp machine are at about 270 degrees centigrade when at working temperature and the vulcanising press I believe works at about 150 deg.

Anyway I gave one to my mould maker / caster and we tried it. It worked fine.

I will try to sort out some photos of the dollies and put them on my website.

I will post details when I get them up.

Cheer
David

As an idle note – Z-corp ( one of the RP producers ) has a suggestion I find intriguing. Instead of building the model, build the mold.

zcorp.com/products/zcast.asp has the broad outline of this concept.

I'll note that I'm not in a position to try it, and I'll also point out that the implication is that the mold would only be good for a few uses. OTOH, if it were sufficient for making a detailed mold for the master it might be useful after all. Assuming, of course, the RP is cost effective in the first place.

ok so the next logical question is this.... got any of those dollys for sale? Personally I just twist wire together and measure out the limbs but I wouldnt mind trying something new. If one could get a pack of these dollys for cheaper than the lead ones...

Dave,

Maybe this would be a better example of teh technology...

I'm producing WW2 tanks in 28mm scale, now these things take around 60 hours solid to Master and of course they are pretty good but not perfect.

RP would be a great example of what could be done. So as an estimate of time (and of course more importantly cash) what would the machine run them out at including set up.

Am I redundant when they take me 60 hours and are worth about $US1000 (about 350-500 quid) including materials?

Might be interesting to have some done for the 15mm market where volume sales are a lot higher?

Cheers Tony

Stripwalker:

Unfortunately the cost per RP dolly is alot higher than the cost per metal dolly so I doubt very much if I will be selling them. As someone mentioned earlier a metal dolly would cost same price as a cheap metal figure (after moulding costs etc) a few pence, maybe a £1 at most. The RP one are costing me about £2.50 each which would mean to sell I would have to add my labour charge and a profit margin.

AMAshcroft:

The possiblities for producing tanks etc are greal, however you would need a very good quality computer generated 3D model (by that I mean on the computer screen) to produce the RP model. I have tried some of the free one that you can find on the web and many do not work. Problems with the fact that although the look great on screen (which is what they are designed for) there are flaws in the modelling that the RP machine cannot get around.

I would imagine that if you got someone who was very familiar with the 3d design software (Rhino, 3d Studio Max etc) they could run up a model for you that would work. However they would take a good few hours to do it. I am sure they would charge a tidy fee for it as well.

The advantage with doing figure is that the Poser software has doen the figure for you and you just have to move the limbs around. The equivilent of rotating a turret I suppose ;-)

Thanks,

It's good to know I'm not out of business just yet.

Cheers Tony - NZWM

I have just found an M1A1 that will process though the RP machine.

If get a chance I will run one off and stick some pictures on the web.

Does anyone know the length of an M1A1 at 1/72 scale in millimetres?
Or even 15mm scale?

Iron Mammoth, which RP printer are you using, please?

Hi Chick,
It is a Stratsys Prodigy!

Sorry that should be Stratasys Prodigy!

Stratasys, eh, Very cool. This is a subject I know a little about. I was first employee of 3D systems, and designed and built the prototype for the SLA-1, the first commercial rapid prototyping machine with my own hands in '85. Ran the project for the SLA-500 big machine subsequent to that. The new "print a drop on command" systems are just amazing.

For the surfaces on mechainized stuff which is angled, ie not vertical nor horizontal, how are the designers getting rid of the "stairsteps"? How thick is a printed layer with your Prodigy?

Iron Mammoth/Chicken Lewis,

If you do the Tank maybe even in 1/56th scale
(the new 28mm) please cost it, send me the proto and I'll produce a few from it and work in the costings for that also. Something unique being a RP wargames vehicle!
Of course I'll return the master and casting.

A neat little piece of engineering, still a little way before we have one like the Star Trek replicator, it's that plastic taste I can't get out of my mouth.

Maybe we have a business! I could do the 3D modelling, mouldmaking and casting, just need a machine! (and a few hundred thousand to pay for it)

Cheers Tony - NZWM
lashcroft@xtra.co.nz

Hi Chick,

On the fine setting I think the layer thickness is about 0.24mm (sorry I am not sure of your imperial sizes).

btw I don't know f you have realise but I am David Drage, sculpted Scheltrums Dyaks etc. so we have exchanged email several times in the past.

AMAshcroft, I will see what I can do. The model will need some work once out of the machine (a little sanding, filling and detailing). I will try to get an estimate of the cost before I do it and I will email you!

David,

It's a very interesting subject, I had thought that RP was still way out of 'our' price range being a corporate level item. It will certainly be interesting to see how it would pan out.

If you can get something done I'll bear the cost of mouldmaking and casting the object or modified object. There may be enough people interested in a 'one off' to help sponsor the project.

If it does layer at 0.24mm then it's working finer in some areas than I do and coarser in others.

Please feel free to contact my personal e-mail if you take it any further and tahnks for a very interesting topic.

Cheers Tony - NZWM

Hi Tony,

I have been looking around and I calculate that the overall length of a M1A1 would be 175mm at 1/56 scale. Based on the length being 387 inches (including the gun barrel).

I will get a quote for you when I get a chance, we are rather busy at the moment so it may be a day or two.

Cheers
David

Just to prove a point about the model having to be well designed in a 3d package.

The M1A1 that I prepared for running through the RP machine will work at small scale (I tried it with a length of 40mm and it processed fine) but wont work at the 1/56 scale.

al this talk about new fangled gizmo's has me on the edge of my seat, show us some pics.....

Been looking into this for myself. There are some things that it could do that would be helpful.

Iron Mammoth, could I message you, (or you me) and get some more information?