"Review of a Citadel Finecast figure..." Topic

" Main drawback: if you drop a metal model, the paint chips. You drop a resin model, it's gonna shatter or snap. "

That about sums it up – epicfail.

"You drop a resin model, it's gonna shatter or snap"

Exactly – this is why I don't buy resin figures.

Well now I can really see what all the "excitement" at GW towers is about. Or not.

It's not just dropping them, which obviously isn't good for any mini. The more fragile parts of a resin minis are prone to breakage even from normal packing and transport – I've seen many Forge World figs with snapped blades, bayonets, guns barrels, etc, none of whom were dropped – they broke while being stowed in or removed from a foam carrying case, and I don't think I've ever seen an Uncharted Seas orc ship that didn't have at least a few of it's "battlements" busted off during shipping.

Resin is great stuff for big solid pieces like, say, a range of 28mm scale urban ruins. :)

It's not so good a choice for anything with small finely detailed bits sticking out at odd angles. If GW were resculpting to make their figs more "resin friendly" it would be a whole different story, but all they seem to be doing is recasting metal minis in a new, much more fragile material. They would have been fragile enough if they were the old "lead era" sculpts with their chunky swords (remember the 80's before the lead ban scare?) but as "pewter era" designs, their weapons and similar details are even slimmer and more prone to breakage.

The review says they're using more durable resin than War machine or Forge World, but even the bset resin isn't all that tough when it comes to thin, pointy bits.

yup resin has places and uses gaming minis is NOT it.

I was going to post something vindictive, but instead I will just say: Thank goodness for all of the other wonderful miniatures manufacturers out there, may your sales sky rocket.

Wow maybe GW wants people to buy and drop them, that means there will be less of a second market for these figures. GW figures produced in the 80's can be still used today. Will resin figures last 30 years?

yup resin has places and uses gaming minis is NOT it.

That's not 100% true. Resin is fine (even a superior option) for casting big, chunky solid pieces. Vor's Growlers, for ex, or big blocky vehicles – some big fantasy monsters, too. It's tolerable on smaller figs as long as they're relatively solid, or are designed so the more breakable bits can be done as seperate metal castings.

Where it's not a good idea is what GW is doing – taking hundreds of sculpts optimized for metal and recasting them (apparently without significant modification) in a much more fragile material.

Really have to wonder what their return policy on broken-in-the-package models is going to be.

Broken miniatures in packaging…repairing them will just be "Part of the GW Hobby tm".

I can see why they've done it though. By removing all metal models and bringing them out in resin (and raising the price), they have effectively made it the more expensive way to add those 'must have' character models.

After reading some of the comments by GW addicts, they will sell well…they are, after all "The best in the World!" to quote GW…

Well, they make the best cartoonish stereotypical figures in the world.

I would say it's even debatable that they make the best of their particular style. I've seen much better coming out by other manufacturers who follow their style.

Plastic I can understand, but this resin crap is ridiculous.

Doe anyone remember when GW was trash talking resin?

-Eli

Oh yeah, I remember about 6 years ago they were touting their metal line because it wast "cheap resin like some OTHER manufacturers." Full circle baby, full circle.

I seriously hope this turn of events kills a lot of GW sales and opens up new companies to the market.

Thought this was some kind of magic resin ? maybe it doesn't shatter so easy – has some plasticity in it ?

There is only one way to find out though – someone will do the experiment – just remember to photograph /video it !

As stated above by 20thmaine -- this is suppose to be "some kind of majic resin". Everyone on these GW posts keeps talking about the frailness of "resin" and seems to just side step and/or ignore GWs claims and the primary focus of said claim is that this is a "new breakthrough in the hobby" with a whole brand new medium and it may well be?

It not about figures simply being cast in resin -- but -- being cast in a "new resin" ?? I wouls suggest that it may be the same material that Mantic refers to as "plastic resin" -- this whole new casting material,plastic, resin or whatever you want to call it is coming out of Nottinham?

I personally suspect that it is just resin with a certain % of lacquer paint added in and if that is it it is really not new or any kind of big secret??? Also, this comes with it own group of headaches such as having to spin each mold for about 10 minutes instead of the standard 30 – 40 seconds to cast in metal.
As far as what they are actually doing I have no idea and am just sharing some thoughts? I would point out though, that plastic or resin in the fantasy market did not in the end produce lower prices??
Just my little ole harmless thoughts.
Regards
Russ Dunaway

I look forward to a resin re-release of Nagash with crisper detail.

I knew those extra Fellowship sets in the garage would be worth something one day.

Amicalement,

Allen

I look forward to a resin re-release of Nagash with crisper detail

A miniature in metal that can never be equaled!

I am now keeping the LOTR boxes I bought as a 'cheap' army (back when they were) as an investment.

I gave up GW a few years back, but I'm considering having an British TMPer buy GW stuff and ship it to me to sell on in Aus.

Due to a new GW price-fixing rule, now Aussies cannot order from overseas online stores and prices are $55 USD for a box that costs $25 USD in UK (and that is AFTER currency conversion).

I am amazed that anybody still buys their products, even unwitting wealthy parents.

Resin come many many different formulas with an equally varied quality of values.

Simply said resin can be made to meet just about any requirement.

Will GW use this to meet our wants/needs or their own is a simple bet.

The thought of "if you drop…" reminds me of a joke we used to tell while I was in the USMC.

A Marine and Soldier walk into the head (bathroom) at the same time, each chooses a different stall, do their business, and then both leave the stalls at the same time…the Soldier stops to wash his hands and notes the Marine about to walk out…

Soldier "hey Marine, we were taught in boot camp to wash our hands after we pee and poo (insert more graphic language that would not survive TMP filters :)!"

Marine "at our boot camp they taught us not to pee and poo (insert more graphic language that would not survive TMP filters :) on our hands!"

*****

But indeed things will happen beyond our control, but these same things can and will happen to metal or plastic minis…it is the very nature of using your toys or leaving them in the original box :)

*****

I am not defending GW, hardly. But do not blame resin, resin is my good friend and he gets the short end of the stick :)

That they are not dropping their prices is a bit of a rasping file on the soft neither regions :(

What's the Emperor wearing…?

Ouch, that really puts things into perspective.

After reading June 2011 White Dwarf I started to get a bit more excited about the resin models (GW are great at hype !) although was quite annoyed at the price rises.

I'll let my blog followers know, thanks Condottiere.

What I am looking forward to is the day GW comes crashing down, leaving thousands upon thousands of you kids thirsting for figures, then, them finding out that there are better figures available at much cheaper prices, happy days.

Wow, that is some lousy quality control in the review pieces there. The warping is maybe fixable with practice by an experienced modeller, but the miscasts where you're having to resculpt whole sections, not so easy. More voids and bubbles than the Privateer and Mantic stuff I've seen too. If that's widespread in the Finecast (what a misnomer) stuff they've shot themselves in the foot bigtime.

Again, what's their new replacement policy going to be on this stuff? Anyone heard for sure yet?

How many in the targeted demographic do you suppose are experienced modellers?

Pretty much none, if that wasn't a purely rhetorical question. :)

What's amazing me is how the fanboys are defending not only the price rise for the figures but the whole "Hey I just paid nearly £15.00 GBP and it had loads of nasty flaws, but as it's GW I don't care!". It's very odd.

Either way GW really need to up their quality control on these figures.

My answer to this is as follows:

5150

FUBAR

Stargrunt II

Starguard

Fantasy Rules!

and on and on I go.

There are other games as fun to play or more so, with rules mechanics as easy to learn and playable or more so than what GW has to offer.

There are myriad other figures sci-fi and fantasy available at an equal or perhaps greater quality of sculpting and production than what GW has to offer.

Their marketing hype aside, there's a bigger world out there than the GW corporate marketing suits would have everyone believe, and I for one am going to continue to play in it as long as I can draw breath.

They can keep their overpriced resin figures, air bubbles and all. I'll keep patronizing manufacturers and suppliers such as Zombiesmith, Khurasan, Critical Mass, Monday Knight Productions, Crusader, Artizan, Brigade Games, Regiment Games, Hasslefree, Heresy, Old Glory/Blue Moon, Ground Zero Games/GZG, Reaper Miniatures, etc. for quality figures and models at a fair price.

I'll leave the penny wise pound foolishness to others.

Leland R. Erickson

Looking at the pictures.

One thought occurs

Just say NO to recasters….

What makes me laugh is the amount of people on this thread who have destroyed Finecast and still dont have a clue what it is. For those of you who dont know it is a polymer resin (very different from the fragile forge world stuff) that has a plyability which means if it is dropped it wont snap. I was dubious myself before seeing it I must admit and I have seen one or two returns that have been seriously disfigured (whioh GW have replaced) but on the whole the detail is sharper and crisper and it doesnt weigh a ton. It is expensive (I agree) but I do not think it warrants the assassination that has been evident on this thread. t least know the product before you do that. However, it is GW so thats all that really counts to most wargaming snobs… it really makes me laugh…If Old Glory had released this thread would read very differently. Dont want it…dont buy…this is not a review its an execution.

Somethings just need to be executed…

I take it you have compared them side by side, painted fine cast and have an educated opinion then? IF so execute away. If not have a look first. I have seen first hand some of the problems with FC and I hope it is just teething problems…mainly with quality control. But half the comments on here are pure conjecture…like.

"If you are going to drop a resin model it is going to shatter or snap"

Half of the reviews have had issues with quality control which needs to be addressed but the reviewers who have had good castings have had very little negative to say. I have bought several of the figures and they have all been excellent. I am a professional painter and they have painted up extremely well and have finer and crisper detail. They dont seem to be any more fragile than GW's plastics and in fact have more of a vulcanised rubber like quality which means they hold their shape and do not snap. The only thing I have an issue with is the price…they are too expensive, however, the sculpts are a lot better then 95% of other companies. I am not a GW junkie either. It is just a very small part of my wargaming experience but I do have an issue with condemning a product just because it is GW. This post was about reviews..so go review before you post.

"Wargaming snobs". That's really going to help your cause that is.. Sheesh.

Oh and here's an interesting thread we've got over at TWF, which primed figure is the finecast one:

link

I was talking about GW in general ,no opinion on "finecast" I don't do plastics(except the vehicles) or resin.I just rebuilt my space marines(sold them off 10 years ago) with 99% metal models.Guess that makes me a "wargaming snob".Tough….

I have no cause…it just winds me up. opinions are fine just base them on something…

"however, the sculpts are a lot better then 95% of other companies. "

Reaper Miniatures.

Crusader Miniatures.

Hasslefree Miniatures.

Heresy Miniatures.

The work of Tom Meier, Sandra Garrity, Julie Guthrie, Josef Ochmann, Werner Kloch, Bob Murch… need I continue?

I have measured and weighed more than one manufacturer's wares in over 30 years in this hobby for what it's worth. I have measured and weighed the offerings of Games Workshop since the 1980s when they were "Citadel Miniatures." I own scores of their figures including the first generation of WH40KRt figures.

I have measured and weighed their "new and improved" products, and find them more than a little wanting in terms of cost, quality control, and most especially chosen media -has anyone considered that a dust mask is recommended whenever one is cutting or sanding/filing a resin model or figure?.

I'd rather spend my heard-earned money on companies that treat their target consumer base as adults with more than two brain cells to rub together, and deliver a quality product *consistently* as a matter of course.

Leland R. Erickson

I am sorry…I totally disagree….over the last 30 years I have painted every model under the sun and from a professional painters point of view most of the companies you have mentioned are not any where near the latest sculpts from games workshop. I agree 10 years ago the models were weak but the sculpts have got better and better. Crusader are goodish, Heresey are ok,Hasslefree are average. Tom Meier's figures are hit and miss although his faces paint well I am never convinced with his posings. Sandra Garrity's figures are no where near the current quality of GW's stuff (NO WHERE NEAR), Julie Guthrie…really…great in 1983…a little behind the times now. If you really think these sculptors are near the Perry's and Jes Goodwins I think you must be mistaken. There really are some great miniatures out there:

Scibor
Enigma
Avatars of War
Kabuki
Perry Miniatures
Copplestone Castings

I am not saying there are not great miniature makers out there, that was not my intention. There has been no credit given to GW at all. There new generation models are quite simply breath taking. Look at the Marius Leitdorf figure or some of the new Dark Eldar figures. Some of their models are hit or miss and some are still well out of date, but at their best they are fantastic.

I also want to point out again that you are not fully informed when it comes to finecast. The resin is completely non toxic. No mask is needed unlike the resin from forgeworld. It is a completely new product developed by Games Workshop. Also I cant remember the last time I had a bag of old glory or battle honours without 20% of the bayonets being snapped off or other figures with huge amounts of flash on faces especially OG. I have found the best figures for mould quality over the years to be Essex figures even though I dont think the scuplts are superb. Find me a company who consistently offer quality product..I can say probably three in my opinion…Essex, Perry and Front Rank…nearly every other company I have bought from has suffered from some defect from time to time. Ral Partha for instance used to be absolutely terrible for flash and mis moulds. Do you think that GW's plastics are poor as well…You probably do.

I also want to point out again that you are not fully informed when it comes to finecast. The resin is completely non toxic. No mask is needed unlike the resin from forgeworld.

No. "Non-toxic" and "safe to breath" are not the same thing. Resin dust causes health problems not by poisoning you, but by building up in the lungs over time, eventually causing breathing disorders. The human body doesn't flush fine particulates out of the lungs very well, and it can stay in your system for decades. Finecast material sheds less visible dust during sanding than most resins I've worked with, but it's still resin and still a good idea to wear a mask.

There's no point in arguing any of the rest of your points, but advising people to work on any kind of resin without a mask is not something any professional should let slide, even though we often cut corners and do so ourselves. When we're hacking our lungs out or dead at age 50 we'll at least have understood the risks we were taking.

Mechanicalhorizon's album of Finecast pics:

Goodness, there seems to be an awfully lot of voids on that figure.

AS a long time GW hater, I have to thank them for introducing this new material…

Just to point out that they didnt introduce this material, they didnt invent it, they are just producing their figures in it for three reasons.

Its almost as cheap as lead free pewter (yes it is more expensive)
Its almost as tough as lead free pewter, and it can be sold with fewer warnings in more countries of the world!

It is not the end of the GW hobby, but it is another nail in its coffin. Just sad that they do not get their original figures back out on sale – better than these horrible mishapen lumps of the last 25 or so years!

Glad that I only own a few shares in GAW. expecting the profits to fall again!

Thanks to Battle Works Studios for explaining exactly why resin dust is bad. Definitely a significant encouragement to actually wear a mask in a well ventilated area.

"I am sorry…I totally disagree….over the last 30 years I have painted every model under the sun and from a professional painters point of view most of the companies you have mentioned are not any where near the latest sculpts from games workshop."

So the offerings of *Reaper Miniatures* and Hasslefree don't make your grade. OK. I'll bite.

"I agree 10 years ago the models were weak but the sculpts have got better and better."

Hit and miss IMHO, but that's *IMHO*…

" Crusader are goodish, Heresey are ok,Hasslefree are average."

Oh, dear Lord…

" Tom Meier's figures are hit and miss although his faces paint well I am never convinced with his posings."

Oy vay iz mir!

"Sandra Garrity's figures are no where near the current quality of GW's stuff (NO WHERE NEAR), Julie Guthrie…really…great in 1983…a little behind the times now. If you really think these sculptors are near the Perry's and Jes Goodwins I think you must be mistaken."

Ye stars an little comets!

" There really are some great miniatures out there:

Scibor
Enigma
Avatars of War
Kabuki
Perry Miniatures
Copplestone Castings"

Soda Pop, Copplestone (it was late, otherwise I would have listed Mark's superb work), Perry of course, we're in agreement here, yes….

"I am not saying there are not great miniature makers out there, that was not my intention."

Speak yer mind clearly, mate.

" There has been no credit given to GW at all."

Oh, they're getting credit all right, maybe just not the credit you and they think GW deserves…

" There new generation models are quite simply breath taking."

So is cyanide gas…

" Look at the Marius Leitdorf figure or some of the new Dark Eldar figures. Some of their models are hit or miss and some are still well out of date, but at their best they are fantastic."

I am not arguing that, so much as I'm arguing against the very idea that GW is the alpha and omega of sculpting, production quality, creativity, et al as their marketing suits would have the world believe, along with the preposterous notion that there's a "GW Hobby" rather than a vastly larger, more vibrant HOBBY that has existed long before they came on the scene, and continues along without them just fine, and will do so onward into the future long after GWs corporate suits make one too many more of these Wile E. Coyote marketing strategy moves for their own good.

"I also want to point out again that you are not fully informed when it comes to finecast. The resin is completely non toxic. No mask is needed unlike the resin from forgeworld. It is a completely new product developed by Games Workshop."

BattleWorksStudio spoke for me on this; it is you that is grossly misinformed about inhaling particulates, "non-toxic resin" or no non-toxic resin.

" Also I cant remember the last time I had a bag of old glory or battle honours without 20% of the bayonets being snapped off or other figures with huge amounts of flash on faces especially OG."

Old Glory is like Irregular Miniatures or Minifigs; their charm is that they're "cheap n' cheerful," and done in a style that many of us oldsters regard with nostalgic affection (when we're not cursing them out roundly for the broken bayonets, excessive flash, etc.).

" I have found the best figures for mould quality over the years to be Essex figures even though I dont think the scuplts are superb. Find me a company who consistently offer quality product..I can say probably three in my opinion…Essex, Perry and Front Rank…nearly every other company I have bought from has suffered from some defect from time to time."

And I've had Essex figures arrive miscast or with mould mismatching. Front Rank and Perry not so much, but that quality control is just that; it's incumbent upon who did the casting, what care they took in doing so, and who checked their work before packaging for shipment, and what care they took in doing so.

" Ral Partha for instance used to be absolutely terrible for flash and mis moulds."

Fascinating. I rarely if ever experienced such poor quality from Ral Partha, and I painted literally hundreds of their figures during my lifetime, both fantasy and historical figures large and small. Production quality failures is not something I ever heard anyone going on about when it came to Partha figures, but then again mileage and results may vary.

" Do you think that GW's plastics are poor as well…You probably do."

Now you're getting silly. Stop it. I find them generally cartoonish in a video game sort of way save for the Lord of the Rings offerings, but then again, that's just me.

Leland R. Erickson

Leland..are you confused…I think you must be. I am not championing GW. I think they do some nice figures, I think they are over priced. But I do not hate them. You have given every excuse under the sun why GW figures are bad. You may not like the fact that they have a successful business and that other miniature companies maybe suffer as a result but you cant dismiss their product because of their business ethos or ethic. I have painted Ral Partha figures for over 25 years and have had some very bad experiences. Its the first week for finecast and there were more breakages and mismoulds then there should have been. Again not in doubt. But the finecast models are good on the whole. Have you seen one or painted one yet…have you made a comparioson with the old and new in your hands? Perhaps you should have a look first before you decide to be so vocal. As for your last quote…again have you looked at their figures lately? I think the last time you looked at a gw figure must have been 1994…they were at that point pretty rubbish. Some of their figures perhaps slightly outlandish…but not "generally cartoonish in a video game sort of way". Anyway, compared to what…who does better sci figures. If I knew of a manufacturer I would probably buy them…copplestones future wars are really nice…very GW in fact…oh yeah he used to sculpt for them didnt he. Actually the Perry models are pretty good…oh yeah…they scuplt for them too. I am not a GW junkie just someone who feels they should have a little more credit when it comes to most of their figures, Particulalry the new stuff. Personally I would rather play games with Perry miniatures or Pendraken (now they are good castings). Its just not fair to judge until you have seen or used the product. One last point on the safety…polymer resin is very bad for you…carcinogenic actually. The new Finecast is not a traditional resin and is made mainly of PVC. The dust from these figures is not toxic. This is on GW's facebook page:

"Also, chaps, we've spotted the odd comment about the safety of the resin. As with all our products, this has been vigorously checked. There are currently many formulations of resin used across the world. The resin material we are using for Citadel Finecast models has undergone testing by a leading international toy safety testing agency. They identified no risks to health and recommend no special precautions."

I think sanding the models to the point where there is dust everywhere would be a bad idea as inhaling any dust particles is bad for you, like MDF for example. However, drilling or scraping off a mouldline is not going to kill you….I am sure the amount of lead and plastic dust I have inhaled, as well as black spray will get me before the finecast does.

"Greenryth,"

no, I am not confused (I'm not quite old enough *yet* to be so accused). Like you, I looked at the product and reached my own conclusions.

Do I hate GW? Puuulease. I just loath their policies, but that's another whole thread elsewhere on these fora.

Do I care to spend my hard-earned money on a product of dubious or hit-and-miss quality? Not really.

Ral Partha? I've been painting them since the 1970s. Bad experiences with Ral Partha? Haven't had any of any sort of significance. Nada. What was your sourcing for your Ral Partha figures, US or overseas licensee? Mine were strictly US-produced, and I cannot recall a single one that anything less than of an excellent production and quality control standard… but then again, that was when *Ral Partha* was running Ral Partha Miniatures…

Regarding the safety of PVC, there are a lot of questions regarding the actual health effects of this material. And if GW used a "…leading international toy safety testing agency" then why don't they name them?

As for exposure and its effects, I recall what I was taught about asbestos safety procedures; it only takes one (1) incident, *the* incident to trigger all the lovely effects of exposure. Just that one (1) genetic insult.

Statistically, you're most likely right, but seriously, is that a die roll you really want to throw when all it takes is some simple precautions like wearing a filter mask?

I also know quite well whom the various sculptors have freelanced for. Heck, I have provided historical research to a variety of manufacturers over the years, and generally they're a polite, respectful bunch of professionals to say the least. Mark Copplestone IIRC produced his iconic Wood Elves for *Grenadier* *Miniatures* originally… Ive got a bunch squirreled away out in my workshop just waiting for the day I can finally get to 'em and do them some justice.

No, I'm not confused, "Greenryth," just not *impressed* by GWs latest corporate gambit to maximize profits while reducing costs and telling the consumers it's just SUCH A DEAL!

Sorry, I'm just not a-buyin' what they's a-peddlin'!

Cheers!

Leland R. Erickson

So, who's got some Finecast in their hands?

Is the resin like the soft crap that Privateer uses, or is it something else entirely?

GW > Hasslefree?

Each to their own. I know what I thought when I got my first Hasslefree in the post. "Why am I bothering with GW?"

Hum…. PVC…. You know the State of California is considering banning quite a few things that contain PCV mostly in packaging…

And vinyl chloride is listed as a Carcinogen….

Also PVC cement is quite toxic as well.

Though the reports that get me is how low the thermal gradient is, deformation at around 90f.

But, hey it is their choice, and to be quite honest the only place I buy GW stuff any more is at flea markets, as they discontinued most of the products that intrest me for other projects.

And to be honest if GW want ti intelligently make some money they should be ramping up LOTR's production in time with the next two movies. If you look at their performance LOTRs was their last big bump. But that is my 2 cents…

I was wondering about heat and the 'new' GW resin. Thanks for that info. (Though I still wonder if they'll self-ignite like a pile of oily rags…. ;)

"Gaming table in store spontaneously combusts! Film at 11!"

I bought my first GW figures for 2 years (some LOTR figures to complete a set before the price rise)

GW is overpriced, and run by Machiavellian marketing types who make crack dealers look ethical, but their figures are very decent and produced to a good standard.

But how decent does it have to be for the price?

This is Australian prices. Bear in mind the Australian dollar is equal or slightly more valuable than the US dollar, so currency issues have no bearing on this:

40K
A single Space Marine commander is $37 USD
A single Space Marine captain Sicarius model is $25 USD
A space marines tactical squad of 10 is $62 USD ($6.20/fig)

WARHAMMER
A Prince Althran high elf hero is $22 USD
A packet of 15 high elf spearmen is $50 USD ($3.33/fig)

LOTR
A Boromir two-pack (foot and mounted) is $46 USD ($23/fig)
A packet of 24 warriors of Minis Tirith are $55 USD ($2.30/fig)

Unless Resin Finecast can be melted down for the same price/oz as gold, I am not interested….

Interesting, mabey Australian prices have something to do with shipping/tariffs? Because to buy a Space Marine Commander in the US costs $20.00 USD and your dollar is worth more than ours at the moment. Wierd and doesn't really seem fair, does it?

As for Finecast I think if we give it 6 months to a year the bugs will be worked out, molds will be remade, and we will more than likely see the quality and crisp detail which GW has been claiming.

I'm wondering how GW is reacting to the double whammy of Finecast quality control failure and price increases. Nothing has been addressed publicly from what I've seen and it should be. This fiasco has lost them a lot of money and returning customers.

@Colin Baggs – GW might be looking on the bright side that they wanted people to buy more instore and given how bad the QC of the FC range has been people daren't risk buying these figures anywhere else. ;)