"Bavarian infantry coats, and pikemen in the 1680s-90s" Topic

I am planning on adding a Bavarian brigade to my early Louis XIV period armies but am a bit concerned over the proper coat color for the shade of blue to use for Bavarian infantry coats in this time period. I know that by 1700 they had adopted their characteristic sky blue coat, but cannot determine that for the slightly earlier period.

Charles Grant in "From Pike to Shot 1685-1720" just says they wore blue coats during the period I am interested in, and that they wore sky blue coats by 1700. This last bit makes me think the coats in the 1680-90's period were not sky blue, but some other shade of blue.

John Wilson in his little monograph, "The Bavarian army 1685 to 1715", says pretty much the same thing – blue coats in the period I am interested in, and that by 1700 all infantry were wearing sky blue coats. Again indicating the possibility of some other shade of blue prior to 1700.

My last resource was Knotel's "Handbuch der Uniformkunde" which is a little more descriptive, saying "White and gray coats prevailed up to 1673, after which blue coats became more prominent. At that time, these blue coats were called Savoy coats." OK, that said in researching the color of blue that Savoy blue might be, I found that it says azure or light blue was the livery color for the House of Savoy. This then makes me think that the correct shade of blue for the Bavarians infantry coats in the 1680's-90's time frame is still a light or sky blue, even though the texts in the various references just says blue.

Bottom line here for me is, what is the correct shade of blue – a dark blue as other German states typically wore, or a light blue commonly associated with Bavaria?

One other aspect of this project is regarding pikes. I know that Prussia had abandoned them around the 1680s and I believe I have read where Bavaria had also discontinued their use by that time. Can anyone confirm this for me or advise a reference?

Thanks in advance for any help or suggestions,

Terry

According to P. Condray light blue was decreed in 1684. Prior to that most were in various shades of grey, some in "blue". I should think pikes were pretty much gone by then as well.

The 'Savoy blue' used for some colored reconstructions of SYW Bavarian infantrymen is intermediate between later 'cornflower blue' and the dark 'Prussian blue:
link

Then, the meaning of 'Savoy blue' may have evolved with time (the French 'bleu de Roi' looks lighter in older paintings, but on the other hand the pigment may have faded with time?).

no colour is ever what it seems in that period..read this if you don't believe me..
link

Thank you all, that is what I was needing. Savoy blue it will be then instead of dark blue! And the pieks are out of the picture.

Terry

Thanks for that link, Cardinal. Looks v. informative.

Terry,
Ck Uniformology' booklet of Anton Hoffmann's plates of the Army of Max Emmanuel II Elector of Bavaria during this period.
His infantry was outfitted in the sky blue from early on. It was his favorite color. He was contemporary with Louis XIV, Marlborough, and Eugen of Savoy. He generally supported Louis. I believe he was married to one of Louis's daughters.

Your Eminence,
Uniform color isn't what it's described as even today. I have stood formation in Khakis in the Air Force and Army and it didn't matter what unit I was in, there were always at least 3 shades of khaki due to fading and different dye lots used by different manufacturers.

The Bavarians never, ever wore SKY blue. I'm not sure when it became their signature (they certainly wore it during the WSS period and the 1720s) but it was always cornflower blue – that's an actual plant, not the stuff you use to thicken sauces. This is a bright colour with a hint of purple in it (during the Franco-Prussian War, Bavarian uniforms actually went a cute lilac colour after being soaked with rain and sweat).

Unfortunately, a couple of 19th Century artists got this wrong and wargamers have been copying them ever since.

Pikemen in some European armies wore reversed colours up to the 1680s and early 1690s.

The same can be said for Prussian dragoon coats for the SYW. While in Germany on a SYW tour I needed only to look down at the little blue cornflowers to see how the coats were initially dyed. I have however long drawn the line at painting my veteran dragoons'(or 19thC Bavarians)faded coats purple.

Unfortunately, a couple of 19th Century artists got this wrong and wargamers have been copying them ever since.

Indeed… then, Bavarians in sky blue are so pleasantly-looking that they deserve to be kept as the army of Blauvaria…

Blauvaria!!

Ok, So I guess this subject is pretty much exhausted.

Real question here is; "what is blue"? Most people seem think blue is a dark blue.

The color today is called Bavarian Blue. It is not as light as sky blue, but not as dark as dark blue. Back in the day – it was called "blue", every other shade had a descriptive prefix to to its name.

IS this a help?
link

That's the source I was talking about AICUSV. Excellent!
It comes as a DVD disk or a booklet.