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Jonnathon11 May 2011 12:20 p.m. PST

I want to do some Napoleonics in 6mm. Which line would you recommend? I hear Baccuss is very good but Adler has a more complete line. other lines? Quality of sculpts, historical accuracy etc. Who is more sturdier? You know, things breaking off like bayonets. any recommends or comments would be appreciated. J.

H Unruh Inactive Member11 May 2011 12:39 p.m. PST

I have several thousand Baccuss inf, I was a bit disappointed by their cav, however, the inf more than makes up for it.

They are strip mounted and easy to paint, look great en masse.

I have only seen pics of Adler's lines. However, they too look astounding but are indivually moulded. This leads to more freedom when basing them but a nightmare when working with several 100s of sculps at once. I have also read that Adler's cav is superior to Baccuss but can't speak from first hand experience.

Gunfreak Supporting Member of TMP11 May 2011 12:51 p.m. PST

Adler got more detail, the older baccus are a little brittle, the bayonets of the french fall off, but Baccus are remodeling all of it's Napoleoinc lines so soon you'll get baccus with the sturdy bayonets.

Baccus is easier to paint up, easier to get to look good.

Baccus is static poses, marching all of them except light infantry. They take more room then you think, 24 figures take up 60mm in double line.

With Adler you got marching, fireing, charging, they come 4 to a stip for infantry, but you have to cut them loose after painting when you are gonna base them.

Baccus comes 3 to a strip for cav while aldler comes 2 to a strip for cav. The adler cav is bigger then baccus and got alot more detail, and again you get dynamic poses like charing.

colgar6 Supporting Member of TMP11 May 2011 12:58 p.m. PST

Heroics and Ros (http://www.heroicsandros.co.uk/) has a very large range. They are strip mounted and easy to paint as well. I have a feeling that they're a bit shorter and/or slimmer than Baccus and Adler, though I've not done a comparison myself. I've never had any problem with breakage of extremities.

There's also Irregular (http://www.irregularminiatures.co.uk/). I believe that these are cast as blocks rather than as individual figures, though again they are reported to paint well and look good en masse.

Bottom Dollar11 May 2011 1:03 p.m. PST

I just finished a trial run of about 12 strips of Baccus ACW. From start to finish they are probably a little more than 2x faster than 15mm. The fact that you don't have to cut them out and then deal with each figure individually is a major speed bonus. And the scultps are painter friendly with little flashing. I've seen pictures of Adler and they are a little more stylized, one might say nicer, but given the individual configurations, I may as well have spent the time painting 15mm. Also, I'm not sure how Adler sells their packs, but I like how Baccus sets up their packaging, very customer friendly and easy to get started. I don't know about Baccus cav or art as I've haven't bought any yet. If I ever decide to paint Napoleonics--God help me--I'll try it in 6mm Baccus first.

RobH Fezian11 May 2011 1:17 p.m. PST

Adler are certainly the most detailed, but accordingly also the largest (actually 10mm high). The suffer badly from "huge head" syndrome. Each having a head and helmet/shako larger than many manufacturers 15mm figures.

Baccus are nicely detailed and well cast, generally about 8mm high. The strips are OK if you are happy with the pre-determined basing sizes (or multiples thereof). If not clipping and cleaning is a real PITA. Baccus figures also tend to have very thick bases which makes basing more of a chore to build up around the step.

Irregular are most peoples whipping boy when discussing 6mm. They look like tatty lumps in bare metal, but some people (Mike from Angel Barracks for example) seem able to turn them into real works of art. Also fixed basing sizes but unlike Baccus cannot be snipped due to the way the figures are cast together. They run from 6 to 8mm high depending on ranges.

Heroics and Ros (H&R) are nicely detailled but considerably smaller than the other ranges (probably true 1/300 and vary from 5 to 6mm high). Cast on very thin strips and cut for basing. You have totally free choice on basing sizes and appearance. Figures have a tendancy to frail ankles until based or if roughly handled.

For my own preference, Heroics & Ros all the way. Great proportions, enough detail to paint without beingcluttered or too time consuming and I get to decide how to base them.

Gunfreak Supporting Member of TMP11 May 2011 1:24 p.m. PST

And one big adavantage of Irregular is you get 6 infantry pr. 20mm stip, compeard to the 4 of baccus, that means while baccus need 60mm to get 24 figures, irregular only need 40mm

CATenWolde11 May 2011 1:32 p.m. PST

The Adler figures are beautiful (and I've never seen the supposed "big heads" in the actual metal I've held in my hands, although they are all the French Rev range), and the depth and variety of the line is incredible. You can order by individual strip, which is another nice factor. This is the range that got me looking at 6mm … from "larger" 10mm figures. ;)

Grande Quartier General Inactive Member11 May 2011 1:42 p.m. PST

My vote is for Adler. I can give you some painting tips and tricks that will give you awesome detail and look with AT LEAST a 4 to 1 speed ratio over the best detailed 15mm figures. Don't worry about the time spent basing or handling-think "alligator clips" among some other tricks..I'll try to make some pictures available soon.
GQG

Frederick Supporting Member of TMP11 May 2011 1:44 p.m. PST

I like Baccus, but to be fair have not yet tried Adler – H&R are nice but are very, very small

Ligniere Sponsoring Member of TMP11 May 2011 1:48 p.m. PST

I'm with RobH on this one, and another vote for Heroics and Ros – they are truer to the 6 mm size than the other more 'recent' contributors, such as Baccus and Adler, which trend closer to 10 mm, in my opinion, and as pointed out, some suffer from the big head syndrome. Having said this, I haven't purchased or painted any 6 mm for over ten years. Used some of the Irregular equipment [French ambulances], but way less flexible for basing and less detailed than any of the other ranges.

npm

Personal logo chasseur Supporting Member of TMP11 May 2011 3:03 p.m. PST

I have a lot of Adler, all nationalities, and I prefer them hands down. The large head syndrome is actually good, it makes the easier to distinguish on the table top and they paint up very nicely because of it.

Personal logo Stosstruppen Supporting Member of TMP11 May 2011 3:20 p.m. PST

Adler is my choice as well

coopman11 May 2011 3:25 p.m. PST

Individually mounted 6mm figures for a massive horse & musket era army would be a nightmare IMO. I would never choose to go that route. I have Baccus 6mm ACW armies and am happy with the way that they turned out.

isttexas Inactive Member11 May 2011 4:10 p.m. PST

IMHO, it is simply a matter of personal choice. But if you want to see a "bunch" of 6mm Adler try this link. link Click on individual pictures for close-ups.
Adler does have a very wide range and is constantly expanding it. Also, all these figures were "clipped off the strips" and mounted individually on their bases.

Personal logo McKinstry Supporting Member of TMP Fezian11 May 2011 4:11 p.m. PST

I prefer Baccus infantry for my standard line infantry. Good figures and the strips do make mass painting easier plus Peter Berry is a great guy. For skirmishers, elites, cavalry and artillery, I prefer Adler as the detail is stunning, the poses more varied and at least for those figures I've painted (1000+), I haven't run into a 'big head' syndrome. The Adler Napoleonic cavalry have to be seen to be believed, the detail is so good.

Gazzola11 May 2011 4:12 p.m. PST

Jonnathon

I have over 3,000 Adlers and went for them after seeing and painting up samples of all the other 6mm manufacturers, which, in my opinion, were very poor in comparison. Before them I owned Heroic and Ros. But Adler are the best detailed and the complaints about the heads are exaggerated.

The miniatures look great in battalion or skirmisher formations, but I would suggest you purchase some sample infantry and cavalry strips (and sample strips from other manufacturers) and paint them up, rather than just go by what people say. My bet is that, once you see them in the flesh and paint them up, you will go for Adler.

Parfitts Tele Inactive Member11 May 2011 5:11 p.m. PST

I had a good collection of H&R and found them easy to paint and was surprised at the amount of detail you could obtain if you wanted to go down that path. H&R have a good range and you should have no trouble in putting a good army on the table complete with limbers, caissons and wagons if you wanted to. Adler also have a good range, and while I have not painted or seen any in the flesh I can only echo what others have stated, they look great and seem to paint up very well. Same deal with Baccus, i dont think you can go wrong with these three.

Personal logo PzGeneral Supporting Member of TMP11 May 2011 5:32 p.m. PST

I realize this is a Fantasy Battle, but here are what Irregular's 6mm Napoleonics look like in action (Bonny and Rex)

link

Allen5711 May 2011 7:24 p.m. PST

I have not seen Baccus or Irregular in the flesh so to speak and can not comment on them. I have seen Adler and H&R. My personal observation is that Adler look short and squat in their proportions while H&Rs proportions are more tall and thin. Both companies figures paint up nicely but as stated by others H&R are considerably smaller and I found them to be more delicate. I like smaller figures.

Cerdic Supporting Member of TMP12 May 2011 12:01 a.m. PST

Baccus is my recommendation. They paint up really well. The infantry strips make them easy to handle and base. The service is excellent. The Napoleonic ranges are being re-sculpted and expanded at the moment. I think the British, Spanish and Russians are finished and are superb.

You can use Adler cavalry with Baccus figures for a bit of extra variety. H&R are a totally different size however, and don't really mix.

Angel Barracks12 May 2011 1:56 a.m. PST

Irregular are most peoples whipping boy when discussing 6mm. They look like tatty lumps in bare metal, but some people (Mike from Angel Barracks for example) seem able to turn them into real works of art.

Thank you kind sir, cheque is in the post!
Irregular are my favourite.
One clear advantage is the durability of them.
They are 6 infantry to a strip and they are moulded shoulder to shoulder, bayonets are small and thick with very little sticking out from the casting.

I have dropped Irregular miniatures with no damage, Adler I damage when painting, they have some very thin bits on them that are prone to bending.

Here is the gallery page of my website which has some shots of my Irregular miniatures in action:

link

Here is a link to my own section on the 6mm Forum:

link

It may be worth having a look around the forum gallery as you will see many of the other 6mm makes in there.


As for completeness of range, Irregular Miniatures have one of if not the biggest selection of 6mm Napoleonics to pick from:

link

Michael.

SJDonovan12 May 2011 2:04 a.m. PST

I'd go for Heroics & Ros first, Baccus second and I wouldn't give house room to Adler (in fact I recently gave a bunch away). To me Adler's proportions are all off. They look like gnomes. Well-sculpted, nicely detailed gnomes; but gnomes nevertheless.

Angel Barracks12 May 2011 2:10 a.m. PST

I am happy to discuss at length and provide various pictures for you if you like Jonnathon.
Whilst I do prefer Irregular I would rather you get what is best for you and your gaming style/needs than make a few extra quid.

I have played with and painted thousands of each.


Drop me a mail:


mail@angelbarracks.co.uk


Michael.

1815Guy Supporting Member of TMP12 May 2011 6:11 a.m. PST

Adler are the best.

Baccus are fine, and a really nice company to deal with, but Adler really are superb. I have acres of em.

I wouldnt use H&R or Irregular at all for Napoleonics.

Adler are a "big" figure, more like 8mm than 6mm. All the detail is on them, so if you just want to spray black and dry brush an "abstract" figure then Adlers wont do for you. There are facings, straps and shako cords, and Adlers need to be painted like a 10mm figure.

I bought a lot of strips in line abreast, marching with shouldered arms. Looks good on the table and I could paint them up 4 at a time and base them easily without cutting the strips up. If you get advancing/attacking poses the Adlers come in a "line ahead" formation and you will need to separate them into individual figures prior to basing.

They also do superb sets of personalities and Generals

Go for Adler, you wont regret it, and they will look terrific on the table.

If you want to see some in action, here is a link to a semi dormant Yahoo group I used to run when time wasnt such a problem!

link

In the files section in Borodino2001 you will see Russian and French Adlers on Volley and bayonet bases, including some close ups. You might have to join the group to get access, which is free of course.

Personal logo Martin Rapier Supporting Member of TMP12 May 2011 7:11 a.m. PST

My 6mm Naps are all H&R or Irregular, they mix and match quite well and are all based in strips already (hurrah!).

Baccus figs are very nice but rather larger than my existing stuff, and Adler are just pumpkin headed monstrosities. Some people like them a lot though, just like some people like Valiant or Brittania in larger scales. Horses for courses.

trailape Supporting Member of TMP12 May 2011 8:57 a.m. PST

Go 10mm!

porpoise1 Inactive Member12 May 2011 11:03 a.m. PST

Hi

One thing for sure: the bigger the figure, the more detail the more time required to paint.

Of course some people go for a 'broad stroke' paint job, but I can't do this: if the detail is there I feel inclined to paint it.

I have painted all four manufactures figures and conclude that H&R are my fav.

Adler are top of the pile IMO, the sheer personality that the big heads and poses give is top notch … but, and this is why I would never build armies from them – muskets, flag poles, swords are so thin and fragile as to render the range useless.

Bacuss are not to my liking for bayonet fragility – addressed (in part) by redesigns.
I also find their legs to be too short – if you think Adler are Gnomes, then Bacuss are no better.

Irregular figures are very rough castings by todays standards, lack fine detail and in most cases you could pretty well pick up any part of the Napoleonic range and paint it up as something completely different.

But … they are easy enough to paint and as stated: pretty rugged.

H&R are correctly proportioned figures, well cast and easy to paint.
They don't have tons of detail, some of the cavalry figures have 'toy soldier' like poses, but in general they do the job.

I would order a French line fusilier from each range, paint it up and judge for yourself what looks best/is best suited to how you paint/cost effective ….

Ligniere Sponsoring Member of TMP12 May 2011 1:07 p.m. PST

I have probably 15,000 H&R, and when Adler first appeared on the scene I can remember being very excited because the shots in the magazines showed that the level of detail was superb. But I was disappointed when I saw them in the metal at Salute [or some other London convention], not because of the level of detail, that was superb, but because they were clearly incompatible with my other 6 mm collections because of their size. At the time I remember thinking they had the detail of some 15 mm figures, but the size of something between 6 and 15 mm. At the time 10 mm didn't exist, but perhaps that's really what they should have been – however, presumably so as not to start another size, they were marketed as 6 mm [that's only my opinion].
For anyone that didn't have H&R or Irregular figures at that time and wanted plenty of detail, but were looking for something smaller than 15's, then Adler and Baccus were the way to go. With H&R you tend to paint on the detail, whilst with Adler and Baccus you paint the detail that's on the figure [if that makes sense]. However, If I were starting all over with my smaller figure collection I'd probably go 10 mm.

npm

Personal logo BobTYW Supporting Member of TMP12 May 2011 3:50 p.m. PST

I have seen Baccus before and they are very good, however, I am going to get some Irregular and Adler (sample packs)before making a decision. It seems that Adler and Baccus are neck and neck for customer opinion. Not surprising.

1815Guy Supporting Member of TMP18 May 2011 8:38 a.m. PST

Yes Ligniere, H&R area totally different looking size of figure to Adlers.

Fortunately, once you have tried the Adlers you wont want to go anywhere else for this sort of scale figure, so its not really a problem!!!

:o)

1968billsfan Supporting Member of TMP18 May 2011 10:03 a.m. PST

A bad equation for me is,,,, when I buy smaller sized figures, I decide to paint more of them per battalion to get a more realistic width-to-length unit appearance. I wind up painting the same area of lead and using the same sized bases per battalion. This seems to be a black hole that I spiral into regardless of good intensions and the starting point. 15mm with 16 to 24 files per battalion seems to be the center point…….sigh.

Despite the attractivness of getting a realistic view of massive number of troops from my God-like heliocopter, I also find another counter-current to "going small". It is that the size of the base and the height of the stand base compared to the figure and scenery size starts to become too large. My brain can't ignore this (although familiarity and Scotch may eventully help). If the figure is 6mm high, and the base (you gotta pick the things up to move them!) is 2mm high, in my opinion, it puts a jarring note of "this isn't real" into the view. I don't have a problem with 1/285 microarmor in this regard, but maybe that is because if you go 15mm or 1/48 scale there, tank battles are fought out at something that looks like 25 yard distances.

but its fun…

Gazzola18 May 2011 2:38 p.m. PST

Jonnathon

As can be seen by the variety of comments, 6mm wargamers have different tastes and prefer different miniatures and miniature manufacturers, for different reasons.

The answer is simply really. Just don't rush into it. Instead, if you haven't already done so, try to obtain samples from all the 6mm miniatures manufacturers, and paint and base them up. Some paint better than others, and you will soon find yourself being attracted to one particular make.

munds316 Feb 2012 4:48 p.m. PST

Thinking about baccus for a momtmirail using fast play grande army. Don't need a ton of figs but the google pics of baccus figs look great on square bases.

Grizzlymc Inactive Member16 Feb 2012 5:53 p.m. PST

I have trialled everything but Baccus. I think that most of the descriptions are good, but dont let the chunky proportion put you off, you dont see it unless your wargames table is 170cm off the ground. Adler are more like 8mm and the slightly bigger heads make it easier to see the shako distinctions which are the most important uniform item.

I dont paint very well and have never felt a compunction to paint all the buttons (although you can if you want to) but I still get better looking troops with Adler than Heroics (who are genuine 1:300 scale.

I would second buying a trial pack of each – its not expensive and will give you an idea.

le Grande Quartier General Inactive Member16 Feb 2012 8:52 p.m. PST

I think you have to have a complimentary relationship between the figure and the painting style. Sort of a detail multiplied by time divided by technique formula if you will.
I think it's best to try different combinations to find the one that suits you.

mollinary19 Feb 2012 3:55 a.m. PST

Difficult making generalisations about a manufacturer , such as Baccus, rather than about individual ranges. Particularly for a period like the Napoleonic Wars, it takes years to cover the whole gamut of nations that people want. I wasn't a great fan of early Baccus ranges, for many of the reasons already mentioned, horse in particular left me cold. But that has really changed over the last two or three years as Peter has started replacing his earlier lines. I think his new Napoleonic British are among the finest figures available in any scale, and he has really addressed his horse problems. I also go for his New Ancients ranges, and the Spanish cavalry for the Punic Wars are mouthwatering. The new infantry are also slimmer and better proportioned. Paradoxically I find this makes them a bit more difficult to paint, but once you have worked out a technique that suits you it is fine. Anyway, Baccus is one of the best firms for letting its figures do the talking, it's website is extremely well illustrated and you can see for yourself what is on offer. Great to have so much choice, really!

Mollinary

XV Brigada Inactive Member19 Feb 2012 7:01 a.m. PST

The best 6mm figures are 10mm. No question:-)

Grizzlymc Inactive Member19 Feb 2012 8:17 a.m. PST

But 6mm gives you a wider range of scenery options and more table space.

Personal logo Chortle Sponsoring Member of TMP Fezian19 Feb 2012 8:26 a.m. PST

Not everyone can get the best from Adler. If you are a really good miniature painted I'd suggest you buy Adler cavalry and Baccus infantry.

Baccus are really easy to paint and give a nice result for the average painted.

DHautpol22 Jun 2012 5:21 a.m. PST

When painting 6mm one of the most important things to be borne in mind is – if you can't paint it neatly don't paint it at all.

If you omit the red piping on your French fusiliers no-one will notice, but if you try to show it and it scales up to the equivalent of 2 inches wide in real life it will just look terrible.

I realised this when looking at some re-enactors strutting about at Salute one year; once you got a certain distance away you could not make out out the red piping on the lapels and turnbacks anymore, all you could see was the big blocks of blue and white. Move a bit further away and even the white piping on the cuffs vanished just leaving blue and red.

The nearest I get to showing the piping is on French legere types where I will lightly catch the edge of the turnbacks with white and just drag a very fine line of white above the cuffs.

le Grande Quartier General Inactive Member22 Jun 2012 7:43 a.m. PST

Depends- there is a certain level of impressionistic possibility when it come to certain details, and magic wash helps. Leon Adler has some nice tips on his site for painting turnbacks well, among other things.
Best,
napoleoniccampaigns.com

link

Glenn Pearce25 Jun 2012 1:11 p.m. PST

Hello Jonnathon!

I've been painting 6mm figures for over 30 years and have close to 40,000 of them. They are mainly Napoleonics and are from all of the mentioned firms. I've only bought and painted Baccus figures for the last 10 years. If Baccus was around when I started I would only have their figures.

First let me see if I can answer your other questions. In Napoleonics Baccus now has a pretty extensive line. Most (if any) missing figures can easily be converted with a paint job. A visit to their web site will show you that they also have a pretty full dance card in their other periods. You will never live long enough to paint them all.

The quality of their sculpts is world class, they take a back seat to know one. I'm not an expert in every period but I'm not aware of any historical errors.

They are very sturdy figures (all 6mm figures are a little weak in some areas). The bayonets on their new Napoleonics which is now almost their entire line are excellect. The Austrians will be finished soon and the French next year. One of the great features is the fact that most of their cavalry swords are moulded on the body of the figure.

Some other points that may interest you are:

1) Baccus sells their figures in packs that match their mounting system. It's so clever that it's almost a standard now for 6mm, 30mm x 60mm or 60mm x 60mm. This means you don't have figures left over and you don't have to spend hours sorting out what you need vs. what you can order.

2) In most cases you will find that Baccus is often the cheapest one to buy from.

3) Baccus sells the bases, basing kits, flags, rules and a host of other accessories that you may want or need. Pretty much one stop shopping.

4) The uniformity and size of Baccus figures makes the colours stand out a little more when based in units.

5) The style and level of detail on Baccus figures makes them the fastest to paint (at least for me).

Hope this helps.

Best regards,

Glenn

jimchris Inactive Member25 Jun 2012 11:50 p.m. PST

Do Adler cavalry go fine with Baccus Infantry?

Glenn Pearce27 Jun 2012 6:50 p.m. PST

Hello jimchris!

The short answer is yes. The long answer is Adler cavalry and Baccus cavalry don't match up very well in Napoleonics.
In rough numbers Baccus infantry and cavalry are around 7 to 8mm. Adler infantry is only slighly taller then Baccus infantry. In some figures there is no real difference in size. Adler cavalry however is close to 10mm. Great looking horses but pretty big beside Baccus. Baccus cavalry is just as good but smaller and a uniform style. I suggest you order samples from both firms and see for yourself.

Gazzola28 Jun 2012 2:45 a.m. PST

Jonnathon

Have you made any decisions yet as to which 6mm miniatures you are going to use?

My betting is that once you paint up and base some Adler units, you will not even consider the other 6mm miniatures. They just can't be beat on detail and easily look the best in battle array.

I tried them all and none came anywhere near as good as Adler, which is why I now have thousands of them. I found Adler's after-sales service great as well.

But everyone has their own tastes and can find fault with any miniatures, so let us know how you get on, although I'm sure you'll be happy with whichever manufacturer you go for?

grambo29 Jun 2012 4:07 a.m. PST

I see this thread has been running a long time. It is clear that both Adler and Baccus have their fans, and some actually mix both manufacturers. The comments re Baccus horses surprises me, but maybe it refers to an older range that I have not seen. Certainly the newer Napoleonic cavalry are very well proportioned. I remember when 6mm figures were sort of fused together on strips! Not the case these days, some excellent little castings on the market.

My vote also goes to Baccus, I simply love painting them!

Cheers,
Lee.

Baccus British Light Dragoons below.

picture

picture

von Winterfeldt29 Jun 2012 4:30 a.m. PST

very nice looking unit.

Gazzola29 Jun 2012 7:32 a.m. PST

Jonnathon

I don't have the patience to paint up miniatures with too much detail, but Alder miniatures have enough to please those who want to paint and base up their units as quickly as possible and those who love detail and want to take their time.

I've seen some good examples from other 6mm manufacturers painted up, but although I've seen some that look really good, such as the pictures above, I've yet to see any that really match well painted Adler miniatures.

But again, the best thing is to buy samples from various manufactuers, paint and base and them up, then you will see for yourself. You will almost certainly find one that looks and works best for you in all areas.

Luckily, 6mm miniatures are cheap, so it won't cost a lot for some samples or involve a lot of paint. I would recommend checking out an infantry and cavalry strip, plus a cannon, to get an overall feel.

Talking of which, I've got some new Adler Cossacks crying out for some colour!

Gazzola30 Jun 2012 8:30 a.m. PST

Jonnathon

I meant to add that I think the Adler 6mm Napoleonic range is larger and offers more than other 6mm manufacturers. And they've always been very helpful and patient, no matter what awkward questions I've thrown at them.

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