"What can I do with these M4A3 75mm Shermans?" Topic

I just picked up Italeri's fast build version of M4A3 75mm Sherman in 1/72 for a good price (2 tanks in a box), and I want to make them useable for British service in 1944 NWE. A quick search on internet reveals British did not use these tanks operationally, is there any way I could convert them to stand in for Sherman V or III? Excuse my lack of knowledge on this subject.
I was also wondering did the British repaint their lend lease Shermans or keep the US Olive Green colour?
My idea was to use them as support for infantry from 43rd Wessex Division- is this possible?

Looking forward to your sage advice.

Cheers,
jacksarge

This link from another gamer seems to suggest that Churchills were used with the 43rd wessex within your time frame – link

I see no reason why you can't use them for British Shermans.

They look very similar to the M4A3.

At 1/72, I wonder how many people even know the difference between a M4A2, M4, M4A4 and an M4A3?

Do these have driver hoods or a flat glacis plate? To my knowledge, the British did not use "big hatch" Shermans at all, except for some 76mm Shermans in Italy IIRC, and "hybrids" or M4 Composites. The driver hoods (or lack thereof) is a pretty distinctive feature on the tank. If you wish to be historically accurate (which is why I am assuming you asked this question?) I would probably say no. But it is your stuff…

As for paint colors, the British left their tanks in the original Olive Drab. In fact, they changed their base paint for locally constructed equipment to a shade similar to US OD, so that it matched with all the lend-lease equipment (though it weathered more "green" than the US OD).

Damon.

jacksarge

If it's Italieri kit 7518, then judging from the box top pic at this site link I would say that they could pass as Sherman III. All they really need is the blanket box on the turret rear. The early M4A2 (Sherman III) and early M4A3 (Sherman IV) have almost the same hull (in this case with direct vision slots for the driver and hull gunner). The main difference is the ventilation grilles on the engine deck – they are similar but not the same. Only some rivet counting pedant is going to point that out. The rest is just minor stuff like the hull ventilators (near the drivers' hatches), fuel filler caps, and the hull rear plate which aren't likely to be noticed anyway.

It will not pass as a Sherman V as this was the model with the lengthened hull and wider spacing between the suspension units.

As Garand pointed out, plain old US OD will do nicely.

In Normandy the units that were equipped with Sherman III were 8AB, 27AB, and 2CAB. Don't know if any of these supported the 43rd during the campaign.

If you want to try something different, LeClerc's 2DB was completely equipped with M4A2/75s when they liberated Paris.

Cheers

Here we go: link

Scroll down a bit and it answers your question: no M4A3s (Sherman IVs) were used operationally by the British.

Damon.

Garand- yep, already checked wiki link before original post, that's why I was thinking of converting them to V or III.
Killer Woobie- it is the kit you mentioned. Sounds like III might be my best option, just got to figure out this blanket box thing- plasticard or similar perhaps?
Any suggestions for appropriate Vallejo colours for "weathered green" version of OD as mentioned by Garand?

I'd just use Vallejo's Olive Drab (I don't have the bottle handy for the number right now), lightened a bit with Iraqi Sand if you have it, or some other ochre color. Out of the bottle it's a bit dark. Some people (like Battlefront) reccomend "Brown Violet" FWIW.

For the engine deck issues, really I'd just pile on some stowage, maybe a few ammo cases underneath a greenstuff tarp.

Damon.

I wouldn't cover the engine deck with stowage – that blocks the air intakes and causes the engine to overheat. No crew would do that. The only Shermans that you see with engine deck stowage are those with solid engine decks (M4, M4A1, and M4A4). The air intakes on those models were under an armoured cover immediately behind the turret. If you managed to block that the turret wouldn't rotate either. This is why US M4A3s received a stowage rack on the rear hull plate.

At any rate, looking at the box art, there is no indication that Italieri got the grills right (going by past experience). The model may well be an M4A2. Both the A2 and A3 have twin rectangular engine grill doors, those on the A2 are smaller than on the A3. You would have to compare the model to a line drawing to be sure just what you have.

The blanket box can be fabricated from plasticard or even balsa. It's just a rectangular box with a lid (usually empty 25pdr ammo cans) welded to the rear of the turret. The lid can be simulated by glueing a strip of paper around the top portion of the rectangle.

Cheers

As KW says, the M4A3 is near enough to a Mk III (M4A2) to get away with.

43rd Division were supported by the 8th Armoured Brigade at Mont Pincon and right through August and September 1944.

As for colours, according to Mike Starmer, who is THE authority on this subject, the closest Vallejo match for British Army SCC15 Olive Drab is 9 parts Russian Uniform to 1 part Black.

While lend-lease tanks were delivered in US Olive Drab, the British Army would soon start adding bits and pieces such as stowage boxes, applique armour, etc, which would then require them to give the tank a re-paint. Units would also repaint them as soon as they were stopped to do maintenance for a day or two. Fireflies in particular, required major re-working in a factory before delivery to units, so would always be repainted. Never underestimate the British Army's obsession with painting! :o)

Photos of British armour in the UK before D-Day often shows pristine paintwork, with markings all applied in the regulation manner and extra-large squadron signs and stars. A lot of these markings disappeared before Normandy, so there must have been wholesale re-painting before deployment.

Some excellent information thus far from you guys.
I have made the "blanket boxes" and glued them on plus have stuck a couple of aerials in- any more ideas for relatively simple bits and pieces I could stick on to give it the british look?
I will try & take a photo of the WIP and put on blog.
Re Vallejo colours, frustratingly Russian Uniform is one I don't have- what is close?

Humbrol 159 is virtually identical if you can get that? That's what I use.

Here's my progress so far:

link

Your feedback is welcome.

You ask about markings. White stars on the turret top were common, but were rare on the sides.

Have a look at some of my 10mm Shermans here for an idea of the markings applied link these are for 11th armoured division. 8th AB would be of a similar style but differ in the detail. I can look them up in a book if you can't find details online.

"I was also wondering did the British repaint their lend lease Shermans or keep the US Olive Green colour?"

For NWE, in theory they were left in OD, but as RMD says in practice they were often repainted in British khaki green (I can't recall the SCC code off the top of my head) which is a similar shade to OD but fades differently.

Stars were often painted on the hull sides in the UK, but they were generally painted out before deployment to Normandy. However, the (circled) star on the engine deck or turret top was always retained as an air recognition marker.

Unfortunately I can't see your blog from the work computer (blocgs are blocked), but if you're asking about markings you could do a lot worse than have a look at the Flames of War website, which has an excellent pictorial guide to British armoured formation markings.

Essentially, 8th Armoured Brigade had a red fox's mask on a yellow rectangle as its formation sign, while the arm-of-service flash and serial was painted immediately below this sign. The arm of service flash was red, with a white stripe immediately beneath. Regiments and arm of service serials were:

4/7th Dragoon Guards – 993 – red squadron signs
24th Lancers – 994 – Yellow squadron signs
1st Notts (Sherwood Rangers) Yeomanry – 995 – blue squadron signs

24th Lancers were disbanded and replaced by 13/18th Hussars (transferred from the disbanded 27th Armoured Brigade) late in the Normandy Campaign.

Martin, it was SCC 15 Olive Drab.

Were the 75mm Shermans not given to the Free Franch and Brazilian Bns. Also were they not used in the Pacific by the Army and Marines?

the only real difference between a late a2 and a3 is the width of the engine grill, its approx 2/3 rd smaller on the m4a2.
you could make it into a 105mm armed one, for the british in italy

At Geilenkirchen, where the 43rd (Wessex) and U.S. 84th Div. fought together under British XXX Corps, the 84th, not having tanks of its own, was supported by Shermans of the Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry and a few Churchills from the 79th AD -- would those units normally have supported the 43rd (W)?

I'm contemplating using the FiB M4A3 dry 75mm as a Sherman III clever use of the stowage pack picked up from Skytrex today should hide the obvious differences (not that I actually know what they are) Would not consider the 'wet' version though even I can see the differences on that one.

Don as stated by RMD earlier 43rd wessex and 8th Armoured worked together in normany and holland and they would have had support from Churchill crocs too.

Would like to point out again that Mike Starmer states OD and SCC15 are identical when new and weathered differently so I would not get too worried about painting US and UK tanks all that differently. I use GW Catachan Green.

Shaun, sadly the British only used M4 105mm (Sherman Mk Ib in British terms). However, given the complete lack of M4 105mm models out there (I could only find M4A3 105mm), I freely admit to straying from the True Path and using M4A3 105mm for my Mk Ibs… Nobody has ever noticed.

Armoured Brigades were passed from pillar to post, to be honest. They generally (but not always) stuck with a particular corps, but as divisions switched between corps the armoured support could change.

43rd Div was initially supported by 4th Armoured Bde (Sherman II) & 31st Tank Bde (Churchills & Crocodiles) in Normandy, but a month later instead had 8th Armoured Bde and AVREs from 79th Armoured Bde, but no Churchills or Crocs. At the Seine Crossing at Vernon in late August, they still had 8th Armoured Bde and elements of 11th Armoured Div, but nothing heavier. In Holland they again still had 8th Armoured Bde, but again, nothing heavier (the AVREs, Churchills and Crocs were all busy along the Channel).

Complicated innit!!? :o)

Its an excellent thread, and I'm doing the 43rd Wessex myself for Rapid Fire, having done Normandy battlefields recently. I too like the Italeri Shermans, prefer it to the Armourfast, and Ive just ordered a dozen of them at an army sized discount, so £10.00 GBP a kit isnt on the cards for me.

The Wiki pics posted above were great, in the US Sherman a nice bit of weathering is on show, and on the one at the Hartenstein the minor differences are very clear.

Frankly, I'm not all that fussed about getting it perfect. As long as my Shermans dont look like King Tigers Im happy. And at £2.50 GBP a tank for an Armourfast at show discounts I'd be happy to put on a few road wheels or a bit of scrim netting to hide the sins!

Is the turret box essential for Brit Shermans, btw?

Bison do a Sherman decal sheet for 8th AB. Hannants have it here

link

Unfortunately too small to see which unit is which on the sheet… and although they claim 10 tanks worth of decals on a sheet I'm not sure I could do a full squadron from the 8th on that sheet, never mind a regt….. and at £4.50 GBP a sheet its more costly than the bloomin tank!! :o)

Thanks for all the advice on this one gents, you are right on the money, and erudite as ever.

Can't see the 8th Armoured's fox mask badge on that sheet at all! Skytrex have a sheet with 12 on so enough for 6 vehicles for £3.00 GBP but you'd have to do the AOS markings yourself

picture

Here ya go:

link

8th Armoured Brigade is half-way down. Note that the formation sign was officially circular and that style was swen on to uniforms, but when painted on to tanks it was rectangular and was placed immediately above the AoS sign, as shown in the 24th Lancers example.

Someone does the decals. I do 15mm, but a mate does 1/76th and he's got decals for 8th Armoured Bde.

Re different tank types – Sherman II and Sherman V look distinctly different, but Sherman I, III & IV all look the same to me!

Thanks for that link RMD, I was hunting for it on FoW but couldn't find it. Still not sure what to do about the decals as I don't fancy forking out for a pricey sheet + postage to the antipodes.
I was thinking of taking a blade to some plastic Brits to get a couple of backpacks and helmets, any ideas on where they would be hung on the tanks?

None of them look very much like General Sherman!

Half-moon stowage brackets were often welded onto the turret sides, so that's the usual place. You could hang packs, etc off the hull-sides, but they'd be the first to be lost when traversing a hedge, or squeezing down a marrow lane.

Sorry I can't really help with 1/72nd decals. Someone must do them, Have you asked Dom at Dom's Decals if he might be tempted to put a 20mm sheet into production? His 15mm sheets are outstanding (and cheap!).

Archer Decals has 1/72 scale markings
link

Who does a British stowage pack I could buy which doesn't cost the earth?- postage to the antipodes usually adds a bit to the cost.
Thanks for the advice RMD, I have a backpack and helmet hanging off the "blanket box" on one of the tanks so far.

Another very common bit of stowage was to weld a long, narrow box across the rear plate of the upper hull. You also sometimes see these boxes often welded across the 'nose' of British Shermans.

Here's a Sherman V OP tank (dummy gun) showing some good stowage ideas:

picture

Here's Robert Boscawen (author of 'Armoured Guardsmen) and his Sherman Vc Firefly (Coldstream Guards). Note that in this case, the entire front of the tank is covered in a fine camouflage mesh of some sort that has ripped in places:

link

Excellent reference pictures, thanks.

In the years I have been gaming WW2 not one person has ever looked at any of the Shermans my group uses, both in the club and at conventions, and told us one model is different from the others, and we have quite a number of tanks.

If you are building a museum diorama I can see worrying about it. Playing with toys in a game I doubt you will notice. They all blow up to the same die roll!

I forgot to mention earlier that the Bison decal sheet linked above includes only one 8th Armoured Brigade decal set (bottom-centre of the sheet), so avoid that one.

Although it's no good to you, as it's for 15mm, the Dom's Decals sheet does however, provide a good guide to 8th Armoured Brigade markings, should you want to paint them:

link