"VSF vs. Steampunk?" Topic

What is the difference between the two?

Marginal and subjective, but for me VSF tends to be more grounded in the history of the period and steampunk less so. It's also a style thing. It really is a fine line and not a clear one at that.

When it all comes down to it it may just be a matter of name. Steampunk really is a literary categorization as well as a subcultural one where as I am not so sure that VSF has ever been used much outside of gaming.

-Eli

Steampunk has hand-held automatic weapons, while VSF remains true to the era and automatic weapons are the size of Gatling guns or similar.

I plan on using Steampunk tech in VSF games.

"Vicrorian Science Fiction" has a feeling of elegance, and stalwart heroism.

Anything with "punk" in it is just plain grubby.

VSF is more historical, properly it was written during the Victorian and Edwardian period. It focuses on technologies and ideas of its time. The the Martians in War of the Worlds invade only England, and this is considered the rout of civilization.

Steampunk is a modern pastiche of VSF. Steampunk is overly fond of shiny brass, gears, rivets, modern sensibilities in Victorian fancy dress.

Iron Stars and Aeronef are both VSF games as they intentionally avoid introducing elements not featured in period fiction. Dystopian Wars, Space:1889, and Martian Empires all are more Steampunk.

I would expect Majicke (spelled in some daft arcane way as such) in steampunk but not in VSF.

Like John says – putting Victorian in the name adds tone to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl

To me, VSF is rooted in the nations/ideals of the actual Victorian era, while Steampunk is much more free-form (a la China Melville)

Don't forget the Girl Genius style of VSF/Steampunk, it does add the elegance portion, and this is the style I prefer. Written VSF is a bit dry and limited to a few authors, Steampunk is a bit wide open with out seeming to have the established base of nations as VSF is mostly nation based with adventure. Just some quick thoughts over a cup of coffee.

Steampunk tends to involve more fantastic elements such as magic and is more gritty and anti-authoritarian.

Victorian Science Fiction is more quazi historical with an emphasis on the science romances of HG Wells and ERB with a heavy emphasis of the Great Powers and colonization.

In both VSF and Steampunk there are brass, gizmos, widgets and steam.

Years ago it was considered that Steampunk, as a cyberpunk sibling, would include certain postmodern themes such as AI, body modification, information processing-derived authoritarianism. VSF has strong themes of 19th century values such as personal honor, the genuine superiority of the upper class, and dedication to one's family and society, while steampunk stresses the individuality, and other modern values.

Or, to put it more crudely, VSF follows the science fiction style of then as we think of it now, steampunk follows the science fiction style of the late 1980s/early '90s as we think of it now.

Neither are formally defined, really, so you can do whatever you want and call it whatever you want and ignore people like me who use words like "post modern."

Andrew

Some also use the terms interchangeably.

It's a matter of taste. I've been going to a number of steampunk conventions to shoot pictures, and what VSF or Steampunk means is really up to the individual, as you see a wide variety of influences and technology in their costumes, art, fiction, etc.

VSF is an extension of the Victorian World into the realm of speculative fiction/gaming/entertainment.

Steampunk is a dressing up of the modern world with Victorian attributes

Gaming wise there isn't as far as I am concerned.

VSF the Ladies are in skirts;
S-P the Ladies may wear trousers.

Agree with Volstag.

VSF lady
link

Steampunk chic girl
link

For me I think the biggest difference is that VSF is grounded in Victoriana- The Queen rules Britain and the empire, the greatest the world has ever known, heroes have a stiff upper lips and fight for God, Queen and Country, etc. Basically it is everything the Victoria era was, and wanted to be, but even more so. Steampunk either portrays a very different world, with (more) alternate history or a subversion of the ideals of the time. It might not take place in the real 19th century at all- a fantasy setting with steam power and bolt-action rifles is steampunk, for example.

The 'trousers vs. skirts' thing is actually a good capsule view of this. In VSF, ladies are still Victorian ladies, with all that entails in social mores, even if they are adventurers or inventors or what have you. Steampunk ladies are more likely to be post-womens-liberation in outlook and dress.

Your mileage may vary of course.

-Will

Yeah, but Genghis Khan's empire was a damn site bigger than Vickies little corner. No, really, it was.

(Now ducking under the table to avoid being damaged by all the stuff about to be thrown at me, especially those brass thinkys with rivets!)

One word: Goggles

VSF is a subset of Steampunk.
To be VSF, you need to include elements of the Victorian Era, while Steampunk can involve completely different societies and settings. Steampunk is more about technology, and VSF is more about society.
-Kle.

In Steampunk, we ignore the natives altogether.

(Sorry, early morning cynicism. I'll go make some tea and be better, I swear…)

Klebert how can VSF which existed far earlier than Steampunk be a subset of Steampunk? I am not saying you are incorrect but I would love to know your reasoning behind the stratification.

Yeah, but Genghis Khan's empire was a damn site bigger than Vickies little corner. No, really, it was.

That is the facts of the matter, but that is not how a Victorian gentlemen THOUGHT of the Empire- and as I said, in VSF it is the opinions of the era that count! :)

-Will

The Queen rules Britain and the empire, the greatest the world has ever known

It doesn't necessarily have to be the biggest.

(Darn that table -- I missed! Now there are rivets all over the floor.)

Steampunk is often dystopian like cyberpunk (hence the 'punk' ending) reflecting modern doubts and worries, while VSF is generally optimistic a la Jules Verne ("Science will bring us a better life"). But the reference to Victorian writers does not fully support the distinction: Robida, Wells were not *that* naive / optmistic.
And, btw, woman wear trousers in Robida (OK, extremely baggy 'decent' bicycle rider ones: the nec plus ultra of 'modern' / futuristic fashion by Robida times).
Actually VSF is more rooted in history in that it re-enacts historical events of the 2nd half of the 19th C., but with a light distortion (independent Texas, Fenians..) or relocated (colonial expansion and competition, but on Mars).

VSF is so strongly rooted in history that most VSF players are more comfortable with Belgians on Mars than with Ruritanians on Earth!

According to the definitions above, Burroughs' Barsoom is neither VSF (no 'Victoria Boys in Red') nor Steampunk (no steam engines, no rivets).

'Futuristic' SF encompasses many subgenres:
- 'realistic' (Clarke's Rendezvous with Rama…),
- 'epic' (Smith's Lensman…),
- 'swashbuckling' (Moore's Northwest Smith…),
- 'dystopian' (Dick's Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?),
- &c ….

In the same way, SF set in 'Victorian times' can be:
- 'realistic' (most of Verne's novels…),
- 'epic' (colonial conquests on Mars and Venus…),
- 'swashbuckling'(John Carter…),
- 'dystopian' (Robida's wars, most of 'Steampunk'…),
- &c ….
Of course the limits are blurred, and peculiar approaches can take from more than one subgenre (e.g. Victoria's Boys in Red on Barsoom). All in all, nomenclature is 'fuzzy' and ambiguous ('VSF' in the etymological meaning being the less informative name), so it's basically a matter of personal taste. To try and go further reminds me of the hairsplitting distinctions between 'Heroic Fantasy' and 'Sword & Sorcery'…

If 'alternate history' (giving birth to "What-if?" countries) is seen as SF without compulsory 'futuristic contraptions', then not only the Republic of Texas, the Mexico-Californian Empire and the Fenian Free State, but also Ruritania, belong to 'VSF' ("An independent Ruritania appeared in the 12th C…"): Imagi-Nations are just "What-if?" nations born some time ago.

Klebert how can VSF which existed far earlier than Steampunk be a subset of Steampunk? I am not saying you are incorrect but I would love to know your reasoning behind the stratification.

Everything that is a part of the set "VSF" is included in the set "Steampunk", yet the set "Steampunk" also includes things that are not in the set "VSF".

Chronology has nothing to do with it.

Computers existed before those things generally referred to as "mobile devices" nowadays. All computers are not mobile devices, but all mobile devices are computers.
-Kle.

In VSF women wear corsets under their clothes, in SP they wear it over their clothes.

Kle well said

Cleavages more… audacious, necklines more plunging in Steampunk than VSF? ("VSF tends to be more grounded in the history of the period and steampunk less so")…

In terms of general design principles and theory, VSF seems to be more restrained, with a more practical aesthetic, whereas steampunk tends towards just MOAR GEARS.

Threadomancy!

Entirely impossible to untangle. View Pikedevant, Esq., YouTube 'Put some gears on it and call it Steampunk.'

Many of us here would say he's actually VSF, and complaining ABOUT Steampunk. *shrug*

Frank Chadwick, blessed be His name, has claimed that K M Jeter coined the term, and, because K M Jeter pretty much invented modern VSF literature (?), it must be VSF.

Others claim K M Jeter coined the term to cover everything badly done in the name of VSF but fails. NOT a subset.

Other others would say we aren't interested in VSF, but rather 'scientific romances.'

Head hurts yet?

Doug

There was an online discussion in 2010 called The Great Steampunk Debate. Seems like the participants could reach consensus on what Steampunk was. I didn't take part in the debate, but I followed it somewhat.

The website itself doesn't seem to exist anymore, but here are some thoughts about it on Brass Goggles.

link