"Under the hood of the new OGRE" Topic

I collated all I could find about Steve Jackson Games' upcoming OGRE 6th Edition and posted it to my blog: link

Yes, it will cost a hundred bucks, but they do throw a lot in there.

They're offering the maps and counters seperate? That's a big plus for those with visions of GEV megabattles in their heads.

When will they be taking preorders?

They say they're not taking preorders any more.

3D constructible minis? Like WizKids Pirates? For that price? No thanks.

It's not a minis game, it's a boardgame – in fact, it's two of the best boardgames ever published, plus a pile of supplemental material and new units, mounted two-sided maps, and fancy full-color counters on chipboard stock. The 3D counters of the Ogres and buildings aren't the selling point.

It's Ogre….

I prefer the the miniatures version to the board game.

A miniatures version would be preferable. Could they at least use plastic figures? This isn't 1986.

Thanks, DesertScrb. Wow, wood components? 12lbs?

From micro game for 5 bucks to a $100 USD extravaganza. Sounds like a Marketing flaw somewhere along the way excluding those with a casual interest. I didn't have to exercise stock options in the 70's and 80's to sustain my hobby interests… I guess now you have to.

From about $11 USD total (Ogre, GEV, and Shockwave) for three baggies to $100 USD for a big box 34 years later? Pff. GW is still much worse over a shorter timeframe.

Yeah, it does seem a bit much for something that doesn't even have plastic/metal components. I'm sure it'll be very nice and that the production values will be great, but not $100 USD worth of great for a bunch of cardboard.

Part of the reason for it's being a lot of money(which it is) is that it is (if I recall) a limited run.
Also the sad fact of life is that the microgames ended up costing more to make than they were worth.
Inflation is a real(female dog).

I confess that I like the idea of a boardgame that doesn't have platic/metal bits,but does use cardboard counters.
I also confess I won't be buying it. Cause I'm poor.

It's too bad that SJG didn't partner with a company more versed in plastic components in their games. I wonder what would have happened if they would have partnered with Fantasy Flight Games?

The key to the price is the limited run and custom components. That will jack the price up in a hurry.

Still, I'm a huge OGRE fan and I will be buying it. If I could pre-order it, I'd do so now.

There's actually a great thread on BGG, where it has been beaten to death. There are some very interesting insights into why they are doing what they are doing. I enjoyed reading it, even though I'm not at all interested in the game as it will be sold.

link

Summary: it is what it is, and no amount of fan input will change it.

My opinion is that it will sell out quickly, and be a fitting mausoleum for the Ogre franchise. Everything comes to an end, guys, and I say this as someone who has a zillion Ogre miniatures.

"The key to the price is the limited run and custom components. That will jack the price up in a hurry."

Plus the previously mentioned 10 to 1 ratio where you will be paying 100 dollars for something that cost 10 dollars to make, where other companies would charge you 50 dollars.

I know I'm being a math nerd but it bugs me to compare $2.99 USD in 1977 with three dollars today. They're different dollars.

Also, it's not just Ogre in the new box, but G.E.V. and Shockwave as well, with their maps and everything.

Using a random CPI calculator I found on the web ( link ) …

Ogre 1977 $2.99 USD = 2011 $10.92 USD
G.E.V. 1978 $3.99 USD = 2011 13.54
Shockwave 1984 $3.95 USD = $8.41 USD

So the comparison should be $32.87 USD for the basic vs. $100 USD for the new version. For triple the price you get larger, thicker, color counters and larger, color, mounted maps. Also, there are LADs and map overlays and stuff that wasn't in the original three products.

Plus, it includes dice. With original Ogre you had to provide your own. Surely that's worth $97 USD in 1977 money?

I'm definitely getting one.

The cost of printing has certainly fallen, but I'm wondering if you could print and sell a game for $3 USD today, even one with Ogre modest physical demands. Sure there are little postcard wargames, but Ogre had a twelve page stapled rulebook. Interesting question.

Andrew

Original OGRE $2.95, GEV $3.95, best value in wargames -ever.

$100 USD limited edition Deluxe Ogre/GEV/Shockwave seems to prove what I have felt for a long time. Steve Jackson, or maybe just his company, really want to kill off Ogre/GEV once and for all. They do not care about the fans and supporters of the system. It is SJ's pet vanity project. Remember the perpetually soon to be released Ogrethulhu rules? We even got minis for it. Remember all the promised but never delivered Ogre minis? Remember the years on no availablity of Ogre Minis rules at all? Steve was allegedly working on the revision and therefor would not even consider reprinting the old version. Remember the fun you had playing Ogre?

I do.

I will have to think long and hard about shelling out a hundred bucks for material that I essentially all ready have. Not so much because i object to paying a hundred bucks for a quality boardgame. I do that for games I like with few qualms. More because I object to SJGs long history of poorly using and mistreating Ogre/GEV fans. Including letting the game go in and out of print, despite the fact that many of us were telling them frequently that we would buy it if it were available.

All we would get was a periodic higher priced redux.

Is it a vanity project? Yes. SJG stated straight out that it was and that he would publish it even if they didn't get enough orders to break even.

It's for Ogre fanatics. It's beautiful. It's a collector's item. Let it go people. Let it go.

As a long-time Ogre fan, I'm…ambivalent at best about this. I'd rather play either the old counter & map version, or minis. This seems about halfway between the two. I liked the versatility of those versions – small counters work on other maps, and the minis could be used for different games. Anymore, I'd use them with Future War Commander…

I wonder what would have happened if they would have partnered with Fantasy Flight Games?

It would miss it's announced release date by 2d12+6 months, with NO updates to the public as to why.

From ~$40 bucks in the baggie form (2010 dollars) to $100 USD for better components and more stuff… I dunno.

Any word about the rules? Still largely the same, or is there some new mechanism at work here?

"It would miss it's announced release date by 2d12+6 months, with NO updates to the public as to why."

Friend, you are talking to Ogre fans here. We are used to counting our delays in decades, not years.

Agree with NVDoyle and Lucius…

With a boxweight like that, how much will it be to ship to UK? Could one of your B2s drop it in on the way to the Gulf of Sirte?

It includes the rules from OGRE, GEV, Shockwave, and Ogre Battlefields and Reinforcements, as well as units found in Ogre Miniatures.

It includes all the maps ever printed, as well as map overlays (ala ASL) so you can change them around. And you will be able to purchase additional maps and counters seperately, ie, you don't have to buy another copy of the game to get them.

As for miniatures, you can get Ogre mini's RIGHT NOW. They are even going to be rereleasing mini's that are unavailable currently.

So, for about $100, you get thick cardboard maps, rugged counters with every single unit in the Ogre universe to date (well, except Ogrethulu…), rugged cardboard mini's (and they ARE rugged) of the Ogre and certain buildings (laser towers), and all the rules in ONE book.

Sounds like a deal to me. Dust Tactics costs around $100, and all you get is a couple of squads of infantry and a couple of walkers. And ONE map.

I like the whiners. So you would prefer no game at all?
The plastic prepaints for Wings of War cost around $12 USD EACH. Deluxe WoW comes with FOUR airplanes, and costs over $70. USD And we all know how much WH40K and Flames of War armies cost. The rules aren't cheap, either. The basic rules plus even just ONE army list book/codex will cost you AT LEAST $100. USD

Just no pleasing some people.

I'll take the cardboard stuff any day, and buy the actual Ogre mini's later.

"and buy the actual Ogre mini's later"

Because SJGs and Warehouse23 have done such a GREAT job of ensuring the minis will be available when you want them, or that there are minis available at all for all the units.

Or not.

Jake

So? You can chalk that up to supply and demand, mainly demand.

Just because YOU bought all the mini's they had doesn't mean everyone else did. It costs money to produce mini's, and SJG isn't a large company. Not even close. They are smaller than GW, smaller the FFE, smaller than Battlefront.

And with the economy the way it is, you think people are going to go buy 100 HVY TANK mini's?

Mini's wargaming is a NICHE. It's dominated by GW and a few others, namely Battlefront (WW2 15mm) and the fantasy market. The reason Ogre Mini's never sold well was the fact that there wasn't enough of a demand to justify producing them.

GZG is a one man operation, with one of the most popular free space combat rules on the Internet, and it hasn't made Tuffley rich. The guys that created Starmada are hardly rolling in the dough.

Oh, and the fact that you still CAN buy Ogre Mini's on e23 should tell you about the whole 'demand' situation.

Could one of your B2s drop it in on the way to the Gulf of Sirte?

You know, with that strap on GPS-and-fins kit we could do that. It would make the game cost a lot more, but we could put it within thirty feet of your front door – at about a hundred and fifty feet per second. We better add a parachute, but I'm pretty sure someone knows how to do that, too. Now you're talking a hundred grand for delivery, but the good news is we could include up to eight copies for the same delivery cost.

Andrew

I raised a lot of these points on RPGNet and was essenially told to off by Paul Chapman, SJG's director of marketing. So, as much as I love OGRE and always have, I'm boycotting this one based as much on his (and by extension, SJ's) attitude as on the value offered by the game itself.

Here's the thread in question. I don't know; maybe I was just being overly sensitive, but he really rubbed me the wrong way. You guys let me know if I was taking it worse than it was intended! I probably was.

link

I don't know about all this talk of cutout card tanks. An OGRE should be made of metal, and heavy enough to injure your foot if you drop it on it.

Behold some *real* OGREs:

link

:-)

OGRE OGRE OGRE OGRE OGRE OGRE ….I am excited

*reads the thread on rpg.net*

*looks at javelin98*

You're being overly sensitive. Chapman was courteous and polite, and because he didn't kiss your arse (and provided explanations to your 'criticisms') you got snarky.

Guess what? By business math, SJG shouldn't be printing this game. They could make more money by sinking it back into Munchkin. Yes, having 50+ nice little plastic mini's in the game would be great. It would also make price-per-unit well over $250+.

SJ is printing the game, basically at a loss, for the fans, and apparently is getting nothing but crap from back-seat drivers such as yourself. I love how some people casually throw around terms like 'FFG could do it, blah blah blah'.

When/if the guys that run FFG/whoever start saying "Yeah, we could have run off some plastic mini's for SJG and the game wouldn't have cost more than $120", maybe I'll start paying attention to the whiners.

My advice to the whiners? DON'T buy a copy. It's a limited run, so that means there'll be more copies available for people who actually want to play OGRE.

Osiris…love your OGRES.

And yeah, the Ral Partha version is better than the later version, IMO. Very nice.

Javelin98: I agree with your points about this version of the game and SJG's general treatment of the Ogre line. I am sure I am not alone in this.

However, Paul Chapman, Phil Reed, and Steve Jackson have at least been honest and forthright that this is Steve's vanity project, the Munchkin is SJG's bread-and-butter product in terms of sales, and that FFG style plastics would not be an improvement.

I have recently become addicted to Lock and Load games' World at War series of board games, in no small part due to the outstanding graphic presentation. I like the sell sheet counters for Ogre.

SJG is a business and actually runs like a business. This does cause some of us hurt feelings when we are not treated like fellow enthusiasts, but rather like customers buying product. To see why this is not always completely unreasonable, contact a record company to gripe about why today's pop stars are not as good as the bands of your youth…

I am really torn about this version of Ogre. It looks fantstic, the price is quite raeasonable for components of the quality we are promised, but…still, there is the feeling of Ogre fans being left out in the cold for years.

Personally I would love to see all the old Ogre/GEV material being made available as pdfs. Download and print as many as you like. I do it with other boardgames, I would do it with Ogre.

evilmike, where did you hear this?

"They are even going to be rereleasing mini's that are unavailable currently."

I've been waiting for them to get a new caster for a long time now. And the only Ogres you can buy are IIIBs and Fencers.

:o) @ Andrew Walters

Love it, eight you say! Cluster-delivery system!

Seriously tho, I don't want plastic minis, I prefer metal, and I have those anyway. I want the counters, and being an old time Ogre player, I'm not that bothered about the quality, but it's nice to see some effort put into it. I'm not fussed on that artwork or the strange shapes, because again I'm an old-time player who likes the stark simplicity and basic design, and the side-on silhouettes. And I'm really ice-cold with the 3-D stuff as it doesn't seem to fit with the rest of the game's format, but that can always be sorted out with some sort of work-around.

The mapboards look excellent, and most importantly, there'll be a one-stop Mega Rulebook for all things related to Ogre that I see will be worth putting up as a PDF in it's own right for X-amount of Dollars (US) which would be a great way of subsidising this game's production.

The cost is high, but within reach of most of the dedicated fans I guess, but for me, the sheer weight of it and getting it shipped to the UK may tip the balance on whether I can afford it. So, sadly – guess I'm out of this if I'm sensible, but I do wish everyone all the best for this. And I do sincerely hope it isn't the 'Requiem' product to finally consign this great entry level game to history….

"Yes, having 50+ nice little plastic mini's in the game would be great. It would also make price-per-unit well over $250+."

Bullpoop. Flat out Bullpoop. Way too many examples of games that are under $100 USD with really good minis included.

"Oh, and the fact that you still CAN buy Ogre Mini's on e23 should tell you about the whole 'demand' situation."

Yep, the masters and molds are there, but the PRODUCT is not available for purchase, even though there is obviously a demand. Plenty of other companies get their stuff cast, even small companies like Rebel and Khurasan manage to get stuff cast and sold. A nice company like SJGs, who already have masters, should be able to do so as well.

Sorry, your arguments, though enthusiastic, are not cutting it.

Jake

"Bullpoop. Flat out Bullpoop. Way too many examples of games that are under $100 USD USD with really good minis included."

Name one with more than 40 mini's. Dust Tactics has far fewer than that, and it retails for…guess what? Around $100. USD

"Yep, the masters and molds are there, but the PRODUCT is not available for purchase, even though there is obviously a demand. Plenty of other companies get their stuff cast, even small companies like Rebel and Khurasan manage to get stuff cast and sold. A nice company like SJGs, who already have masters, should be able to do so as well."

The sheer ignorance of this statement amazes me. Allow me to aquaint you with a simple concept. It's called 'economy of scale'. Go look it up. I like how you apparently have complete access to SJG financials and know exactly what their cash flow situation is.

You are aware that the only product line that keeps SJG in business at this time is Munchkin, yes? It sure as hell isn't GURPS, or Car Wars, or Ogre.

"Sorry, your arguments, though enthusiastic, are not cutting it."

Sorry, your whining, though amusing, is not cutting it.

Dust tactics has 4 1:48th scale walkers (multiple pieces each) and 32 1:48 scale infantry, and 6 plastic terrain items, and you can get it at online retailers for 70 bucks.

Even at full retail it is way less than the 250+ you claim and has enough plastic pieces to account for well over 50 6mm size minis. But heck, how about the 40K box set, well over 50 minis for less than 200 bucks. How about War of the Ring? Over 200 figures for less than 250 bucks. How about Tide of Iron? Under 100 bucks and over 100 figures. Again, plenty of examples.

As for casting Ogre minis, again, design and masters are the big costs, and that is done and paid for.

As for me whining, I guess that is a way to see it, but go ahead and show some evidence that anything I said is wrong. I never claimed to have "complete access to SJG financials and know exactly what their cash flow situation is" but nice straw man argument. Again, enthusiastic but desn't cut it.

SJG have stated in the past that lack of availability of Ogre Miniatures was due to issues with casters.

Not supply and demand in the market place, not SJG's financial situation, not economy of scale, not cash flow, but the innability of the casters to come through with product as agreed.

I do not know how other gaming companies avoid the same issues with casting. I would compare Ogre minis to ADB's Star Fleet minis in terms of size, price, detail and likely print run size. The difiference is Star Fleet minis also have a large appeal to non-Star Fleet gamers and even non-gamers. Far more people will recognize a Federation CA of Klingon D7 than will an Ogre Mk V.

i can understand SJG not wanting plastic minis if they will be of the same quality as the minis in most board games. Sorry but the minis in most game sets are not as nice as Ogre minis in metal.

War of the Ring and Tide of Iron also have the advantage of a larger built in fan base and market familiarity. When was the last time you had to explain what Lord of the Rings was?

The GW boxed games figures are the same ones they sell outside the boxes, and they have their own dedicated retail stores to help move product. Seen any local SJG stores? I didn't think so. There is your economy of scale for you…

As for Dust Tactics will it still be remembered, let alone played, thirty years after its initial release?

Go to e-bay and do a search for "Steve Jackson Ogre" look at the prices some of the stuff is going for. tell me that Dust or Tide of Iron will hold their value the same way… A pity that the money from sales on the secondary market doesn't go to SJG so they can finance more Ogre products.

Well, the shop I work for will be stocking a couple of boxes' worth, plus extra counters and maps…

The GW boxed games figures are the same ones they sell outside the boxes

No, they aren't, and haven't been since GW stopped dealing with Milton Bradley.

Or did you mean the Skull Pass/Island of Blood/Assault on Black Reach starter packs? Even then, those are not the same sprues. The goblin spider riders were unique to that box, period, and the AoBR dreadnought is not the same as the one in the individual box.

It would miss it's announced release date by 2d12+6 months, with NO updates to the public as to why.

Friend, you are talking to Ogre fans here. We are used to counting our delays in decades, not years.

Did you have a release date, or just a statement of 'when we get around to it'?

FFG is notorious for pulling release dates out of their butt… more product gets unfairly labeled vaporware that way than you'd want to believe!

I could certainly deal with the cardboard tiles and everything… I am not convinced that there's enough value in nice cardboard for the $100 USD price tag. $50-75 maybe, depending on the weight, but with no miniatures to speak of it shouldn't be in that price range. I'm still not convinced the Space Hulk re-release was worth that, and it contained a sizable set of unique sculpts.

the Ral Partha version is better than the later version, IMO.

Aside from being cast in lead, you're going to have to be more specific.

*sigh*

Yeah, I figured I was being too sensitive. I still think that vanity projects are bloody stupid business decisions. And part of me feels like SJ just doesn't give a rat's posterior anymore, not about his games or his fans.

As to the question of plastic minis, though… I still don't buy any of the rationalizations against it. There are simply too many other companies able to do it to make that a valid excuse anymore.

"SJG have stated in the past that lack of availability of Ogre Miniatures was due to issues with casters."

Yep, then flat out refuse to switch casters.

Ergo, Ogre fans feel so hard done by…

evilmike wrote:

"By business math, SJG shouldn't be printing this game. They could make more money by sinking it back into Munchkin."

That's Phil's argument, but as he said, SJ overruled him.

"Yes, having 50+ nice little plastic mini's in the game would be great. It would also make price-per-unit well over $250+."

I don't have numbers to confirm or deny what the final price would be if we included plastic minis, but it would certainly be over $100. USD More importantly, the plastic pieces you see in most FFG releases simply can't hold the details SJ wants in miniatures.

link

Your point?

I certainly agree with SJ as regards the detail of plastic pieces and the lack of sufficient value added by including them to justify the higher price that would result.

Right now the biggest thing turning me off from Ogre 6th ed is its likely status as a limited run. If it were an open edition, and I could be assured of the availability of additional unit counters, map boards etc into the future I would be cheering the publication of Ogre as it always should have been.

And why does everyone keep talking about a 12 pound box full of cardboard? Phil Reed tells the plan is for 2.5mm chipboard. Yes, this is a recycled paper board product, but calling it cardboard seems to do it a dis-service. I have maps from other games mounted on 2.5mm chipboard and I can practically stand on the suckers.

12 pounds of chipboard mega counters is my idea of wargames paradise. But I guess I still see map&counter board games as being what you play serious wargames with. Miniatures are still just sophisticated army men.