"Early war tanks in 1944-45" Topic

I was wondering if in the late stages of the war some early war tanks, like Panzer I or II, could still be roaming the battlefield.

There was tank schools in Germany and i guess they didn´t use top notch tanks for training and maybe some older models were still active. In a last resort maybe they were used (like a pillbox or something, at least).

There´s a picture of an old WWI MarkIV tank in a german town so i guess other models may have been used. Any ideas?

I think the Russians carried on using their Valentines through to the end.

Panzer Tactics by Wolfgang Schneider has a photo of a Panzerbefehlswagen I next to a Panther A. Caption says summer of 1944 on the Eastern Front/page 197. It also notes that by this stage of the war the Panzerbefehlswagen I should have been limited to a training function.

Panzer II were still in use in Italy in 1944 they served as reconaisanse for Brumbars!

In 1944 the Germans used various marks of French tanks against the allies. I recall at least one 'panzer' company Char Bis fighting against the Brits in Normandy and at Arnhem (?). Also a number of Char Bis were used as SP arty chassis.

The Germans also used quite a number of R35 gun turrets as part of the Atlantic Wall fortifications.

For the US- the M2-M3 light series tanks were used widely in the Pacific. I 'think' it was the M2 that was actually used at Guadalcanal with the 1st MarDiv.

I also seem to recall that the Australians used the Matilda II against the Japanese for quite some time. The old I tank was very well protected against most Japanese anti-tank weapons and tanks.

Okay- it was the M2A4 mark that saw action at Guadalcanal with the 1st Tanks. In fact, that campaign was the only one for the M2 in US service. Wikipedia thinks that the M2 light may have also seen action with the 7th Hussars and 2d RTR in Burma/India.

The Free French recovered and used Somuas and Char B's.

I believe the 21st Panzer in Normandy was partially equipped, if not largely equipped, with French gear; including modified tanks and half tracks.

In The Forgotten Soldier Guy Sauer talks about a Panzer II that was pressed into service in East Prussia in 1945

the rear echelon used them for anti-partisan work

Russians used the T34/76 as a light tank to the end of the war and beyond.

The Panzer II L (Luchs) served as a light recon tank til the very end.

The 100th Ausbildungs und ersatz (replacement & training) battalion used a Panzer III and two French H35's against the 82nd Airborne at La Fiere bridge on June 6th 1944

Check out the Panzerwrecks series, you'll be amazed what popped up very late in the war.

Somuas and Chars at Arnhem, a Russian photo showed that a Valentine was one of the first into Berlin suburbs…..

I`ve seen photos of an Italian tankette captured by the Yanks in `45.

I think the old saying "a little armour, is better than no armour at all" is what counts here.

Britain used WWI era Rolls Royce armoured cars during the war..Also Matilda II's were used as CDLs and AVRE's up till the end..

There were numerous independent panzer battalions in garrisons across Europe, operating various ancient French types. These tanks would often have minimal modification – maybe a turret hatch added, plus stowage bins, German radios, etc. Some had slightly more modification, such as the eleven H39s at Cherbourg fitted with 28/32cm Wurfrahmen launchers. Others had major modifications, such as the H35/39s converted into SP guns as part of 21. Panzer-Division.

As Mark says, there were a few elderly tanks in various units right up to the end of the war (particularly Axis), but they were the exception rather than the norm. Some Pz I & II chassis were used for driver training, but IIRC they often had the turret removed, so not much use in combat! The training units sent to Arnhem had Pz III L, so still reasonably combat effective.

Captured French vehicles were usually found in independant panzer units, the Char Bs at Arnhem were from Pz Ko 224. 21st Panzer was an exception, but its panzer regiment dumped all its French tanks before going into action, the various SP conversion fought though.

One of the last combat actions of the KV-2 was in April 1945 fighting US troops (crewed by Germans I hasten to add!).

11. Panzer-Division in the south of France also allegedly had French tanks for a time, but again, they seem to have been dumped before the division went into action against the Operation 'Dragoon' landings.

On the subject of Pz Is – there was a company-sized unit of late-model Pz I Ausf Cs serving in France in 1944. They were on the strength of OKW, but I've never seen any mention of them in reports or orbats. They were probably serving with a security unit. However, these things were not exactly 1940-vintage if we're being strict about it.

"Armored Vehicles and Units of the German Order Police (Ordnungspolizei)"

Oh, it's really old stuff yer wanting in German service, there were a number of WW1-vintage Char Legere Renault FT-17s rattling around the French countryside during the Normandy operations. The Germans captured enough of these venerable machines to equip armoured trains with a few to up their firepower in the Balkans, and outfitted Luftwaffe airfield security units in France as well.

According to various sources the Heer had as many as 45 Char B1bis alone still in service at the time of surrender, along with other assorted ex-French AFVs and conversions thereof. Those Char B1bis at Arnhem were IIRC Flammpanzer B2(f) conversions as well as gun tanks; there's a ubiquitous photo of one knocked out on the outskirts of the city in fetching late-war three colour camouflage.

IMHO the German attitude seemed to be that if it shoots, runs on wheels, tracks, floats, or flies through the air, vat zee Hell? It RRRRUNS!

Leland R. Erickson

And a bunch of ancient FT-17s garrisoning the Channel Islands, though most had broken down and were used as pillboxes.

Certainly the Soviets used BT-7s in the invasion of Manchuria in 1945, don't know about the rest of their earlier kit though.

BT-5,7 and T-26 used in Karelia T-37,38 used in special amphibious regiments on all fronts.

On a similar matter, I have 2 Pz III, can we use 'em in Italy in 1943/44 which is what we mainly play (I like the US 5th Army with Yanks, French, Italians, South Afrcans and Brazilians)

Timbo,

Panzer-Abteilung 213 in the Channel Islands also had some Pzkpfw B1(f) (i.e. Char B), as well as some Flammpanzer B1(f) and 4.7cm Panzerjaeger 35R(f). There may have been other types, but these were photographed in Jersey and the photos decorate the walls of the (excellent) St Ouen Bunker Museum.

The Concord series has a lot of actual phots of various early War German tanks in use in the later stages of the war. Most of the functions have been mentioned here. Recon vehicles, anti-partisan activities, examining commo lines, HQ and other support vehicles.

Cheers R Mark I vaguely remember an old Miniature Wargames article on 213, and on the 100 Bn in Normandy.

On the subject of Normandy does anyone know what the 206 Pz Bn used? I've seen them on a map somewhere up by Cherbourg, but never heard anything more.

Yup, 206 were in Cherbourg. 205 were in Le Havre.

I don't have my books to hand right now, but this subject has cropped up many times before, so you could try a search. Off the top of my head, they had two companies of Pzkpfw 39H(f), including eleven equipped with 4x 28/32cm wurfrahmen launchers. There was also an unknown number of UE 430(f) carriers fitted with 28/32cm wurfrahmen. They also had a company of Pzkpfw 35S(f) and may have received more after 21. Panzer-Division ditched theirs. Finally, there was a platoon-sized element of Pzkpfw B1(f) – some or all of which might have been flammpanzers.

As I said, this is from memory, so I expect I've got a few details wrong.

Panzer-Abteilung 205 at Le Havre was near-identically organised, including a proportion of its 39H(f)s being equipped with 28/32cm wurfrahmen. Elements of the unit certainly fought against Operation Astoria in September 1944 and some elements may have fought earlier, against the Orne Bridgehead.

Some infantry divisions possessed unofficial ex-French AFVs – often in their divisional anti-tank battalion/company. For example, 711. Infanterie-Division, which fought on the Orne Bridgehead (in the Merville Battery area) had at least one Pzkpfw B1(f) and three Pzkpfw 35R(f). 716. Infanterie-Division may even have had a Churchill Mk III.

Some independent anti-tank battalions also had obsolete AFVs – Panzerjaeger-Abteilung 657 was one such unit, which had not only Panzer-Kompanie 224 (of Arnhem fame) under command, but also a company of Pzkpfw 35R(f)s, which were held back at Arnhem following the failure of Pz Kp 224. They were finally encountered in 1945, when the Canadians recaptured Arnhem.

Panzer-Regiment 22 (of 21. Panzer-Division) as mentioned above, had ditched its French tanks prior to D-Day. However, its 8. Kompanie was equipped with eight ancient Pzkpfw IV Ausf B or C.

There was an early Stug III with short 7.5cm encountered by one of the US Airborne Divisions in Market Garden along with a 4.7cm Pak (t) auf Pz.Kpfw. 35R (f). Both are pictured in Market Garden Then and Now IIRC.

Hi Nigel,

Panzerjaeger-Abteilung 657 (mentioned above) also had a company of 4.7cm Panzerjaeger 35R(f), as well as a company of 7.5cm PaK 40 towed by UE 430(f), operating west of the corridor. The 35R might therefore have come from that unit or possibly another unit in the 's-Hertogenbosch area. It's been suggested that the StuG III B came from the Fallschirm-StuG-Ersatz-und-Ausbildungs-Abteilung 'Hermann Goering', but it might equally have belonged to an antitank unit in the area – possibly the same one as the 35R.

Mark,

That reminds me I have the Gleiderung for Kampfgruppe Schulz which included/was that HG unit. It lists the following in it's tank company;

2 Pz III 7.5cm
3 Pz III 5cm
2 Pz I
5 SP 7.62cm ATG
4 Assault Gun 7.5cm
2 Pz IV

So the Stug could be from the Assault Gun Platoon.

Thanks Nigel. Goord lord, I had no idea that they had so much kit. Were the two Pz Is listed some of the dozen or so Pz I Ausf Cs listed for OKW, I wonder?