"Aventine Pyrrhic Phalanx Masters - First Photos" Topic

Received a note from Keith this morning that the first photos of the new Pyrrhic Phalanx figures are up on the Aventine web site:

link

As the page says, early in the process, but the sculpts do look very nice.

Steve

As long as there's a standing pose (pike upright) with variations, I'm happy.

Not so keen on the Thracian helmet with facemask for ordinary phalangites, but it seems to be more and more popular in modern artistic representations, so I suppose it's inevitable.

Allen

It will be interesting to see how Aventine interpret phalangites from Tarentum, with 'Southern Italian influences on the armour and helmets'. They are a very creative group, and I am really looking forward to seeing these.

Steve

I look forwardt to seeing the Tarentine phalangites, too. That's a little more limited scope of application, compared to the Epirotes (which would do fine for other Macedonians or early Successors). But I expect they will be attractive.

Allen

I note that there will be LBMS transfers to go with these.

The chap with the face mask seems based on one of their elephant crew and could be good as an 'elite' phalangite but with the numbers to choose from the options will be too confusing for my small brain!

I'm going to be a bit nit picky here.. I generally love what the Aventine dudes do with their figures, if I was to build a new Polybian Roman Republic army, that's where I would start..
However here in phalanx land, I reckon I can say this is more my turf.

I'll start from back to front:

link

I like upright poses, I think gamers mostly prefer this type of figure now for gaming… the anged pikes look right although the third rank might benefit from a higher angle. Overall in these photos the heads appear large.

In general I will say the foot gear is a bit basic… the krepides is a taller boot:

link

(Now I will soften the blow by stating that hardly anybody gets this correct.)

Next the shield straps and positions. Macedonian shields were held up by straps that passed across the chest and around the back. Gathering the strap in the left hand allowed the weight of the pike to be distributed to the shoulder when marching. The shields here do not seem to be comfortably carried, and the left hand position forces the shield down with a pike on top. The shield had a hand grip and and arm band, the strap allowed stability, as the pikeman could lock his shield to his arm and also hold the pike, using the strap tension to help keep things locked together.

(Now I will soften the blow by stating that hardly anybody gets this correct.)

I'm not seeing a side arm. I can't tell if the pikemen have greaves or not… if they have greaves then disregard the krepides comments above.

Now back to rank four… the gear seems appropriate.. but I'm not enamored of the pose.. the splayed out feet always make me feel .. this figure is not paying attention.
The nice helmet makes this guy worthy of Pyrrhus and later Macedonian phalanxes.

Rank three… this guy has a muscle thorax and an elaborate helmet. In this period I would take him as a front ranker so maybe he should have a more lowered pike. Even in the later Antigonid army thorax armor was reserved for officers- which could mean front rankers. I think this guy looks off balance a bit, I prefer the 2nd rankers pose to this one.

Rank two--- this is my favorite. It looks like the shield can work with the pike, and a shoulder strap can be added. I like the stance of the figure and the thraco-attic helmet, can't tell if he has greaves or not. Phalanxes most likely would have the strap on kind. Some (Heckel) has suggested that greaves are simply a neccessity in a pike phalanx, he may be correct as the angled pikes would be sticking unarmored shins like a son of b@@@ even while marching…

Rank one- I like this guys leaning look, but the angle of the pike is going to interfere with the shield… it may be just how itis atached here.

as as example:

This 54mm fgiure seems to have it right… the model has his hands spaced apart enough to be able to thrust and stay balanced (although the modeler has not added the shoulder strap here either):

picture

One can see how the shield has the forearm grip, and how the sheild lays on the shoulder and back. The strap drawn tight around the pike would help the grip, and the hand is outside the shield rim.

this figure seems to have a combination Boeotian Thracian helm from an Igor Dzis painting, it certainly is interesting, and I have no idea if it was common for infantry.

Thanks for posting, I hope my comments are helpful before going into full production!
JJ

Antigonid impression by Igor Dzis, he has grappled with how the shields attach here:

picture

picture

Nice figures all in all.

High JJ Artist and evryone else!

Thanks for the comments. The figures under discussion are just first casts of the greens,and not all of them at that. As first casts they do not have swords,sword straps,shield straps, greaves etc. The armour has yet to be detailed,some will have various types of scale armour added etc. The reason for this is to produce a range at least comparable to our R. Romans in scope and diversity for all phalanx fans to enjoy. The heads are only attached at a random angle to aid holding of the figures and to test for front to back and side to side shrinkage and do not represent final attachment. The final versions will be aggressive in pose. They also represent only a fraction of the heads that have been completed. Heads will probably be representative of later rather than earlier styles, the face mask version is new but is a sop to all those who in the past have asked for this to be incorporated. Anyone who has the recent Ancient Warfare magazine covering the battle of Raphia and the later Antigonids will be able to indentify many of the helmets from that edition and other well known publications. The way Keith has ranked them and the arm positions is not indicative of the final versions and in fact these are some weeks away. Some of those in bronze armour may only apppear as phalanx officers. They will have boots rather than greaves (greave equipped versions have yet to be made), officers waist sashes and plumes. Boots may be controversial for such officers but they do help differentiate from rank and file. Some will appear as front rank versions with greaves etc. I intend that a standing upright version of the phalanx appears complete with front rank armoured as well as an attacking version with front rank armoured. A middle rank,just starting to advance has been created to enable a third possibility of front rank attacking with rear rank stationary.
As for the krepides, hands up I'm guilty. I generally take my info from artists interpretations and with these varying so much I can understand why so many fig.manufactures opt for bare feet!
I'm currently working on some completely new horse dollies for the range which will hopefully be ready early next week and then back to tweeking the above dollies. I hope this answers some of the above questions.Thanks again for the interest. Adam

Adam; thank's for your response, very informative.

Adam, nice work and information!! Thanks Mike Adams

"They also represent only a fraction of the heads that have been completed."

Good!

"Heads will probably be representative of later rather than earlier styles…"

Ummm… back to that in a minute.

"…the face mask version is new but is a sop to all those who in the past have asked for this to be incorporated.

Ah. Well, as long as there are plenty of other head variants available as a sop to the rest of us! I just can't see a foot slogger lasting for long in a closed-faced helmet, simply due to overheating and shortness of breath!

>>> Anyone who has the recent Ancient Warfare magazine covering the battle of Raphia and the later Antigonids will be able to indentify many of the helmets from that edition and other well known publications.

Looking at Dzis' Raphia "centerfold" (oooh!) right now. I would gently suggest that there are over two generations between Pyrrhus, say at Heraclea, and Raphia. I would expect the Epirote phalanx to look more like Alexander's than like that of Antiochus III, or at least to look like an early Antigonid phalanx rather than a later one.

The Raphia illustration, also, is of the elephant fight, and so the helmets are worn by fellows who just need to be able to clamber up into the towers and throw things. They can deal with fancy helmets. (In fact, there are two Aventine elephant crewmen with the face mask on my worktable right now, and they don't bother me in that role.)

A better selection of helmet choices for the phalanx might be found in Dzis' illustration of Sellasia (Jeff's first Antigonid link): the Spartan phalangites have lots of Pilos helmets, while the Antigonids are relatively plain and straightforward (with even the odd Pilos as well). And Sellasia is nearly as late as Raphia!

But that's just my opinion, and a generalization. I turn the platform over to Mr. Jonas for any further specifics. But first:

"I intend that a standing upright version of the phalanx appears complete with front rank armoured…"

There. I'm happy!

Allen

Hi Allen,

The 'Tarantine' versions will mostly have Pilos helmets and sufficient of them will be interchangeable with the others to give an earlier style phalanx for those who want it. Some of these are very similar indeed to those in Dzis' illustration of Sellasia.
The decision to make heads for the later Antigonids was taken purely on commercial grounds as we don't forsee Aventine doing later Macedonians as a separate range. We would like to see the range being flexible enough for customers to use some of the figures to recreate later armies with which to fight the later versions of our R.Romans. Hopefully the packs system will be versatile enough to enable people to select what they want from a mix of styles. Although they will be sold within the Pyrrhic range the packs will be labelled as 'Hellensitic' or 'Later Macedonian' for clarity sake. As I said above, a purely commercial decision but I hope an understandable one.
As for the dating of these helmets I'm sure you will agree very few have been found in context. Dating seems to depend on cross referencing the paintings from the Lyson and Callicies tomb with helmets existing in current collections or museums, ignoring the obvious differences particularly in the neck areas. I for one will be quite happy to mix them with the older styles within a phalanx recreating Macedonians in the 3rd cent.but the range will be flexible enough to enable all viewpoints to be represented. Best Regards Adam

That makes very good sense to me, Adam: commercially sound, and provides the customer with choice. No complaints, and glad to have a hint of what the Tarentines will look like.

Thanks,

Allen

Where did I put those roofing tiles?

The wind has been tearing them off the house here…

By the way, I was looking at Sellasia, and looking at how to do the Spartans (consulting a Hellenistic list by someone that need not be named), and cussing myself for having lots of appropriately-helmeted but *unarmored* figures (Bronze Goat, if you remember them), and wondering if anyone would ever make armored phalangites in Pilos helmets. So I'm interested in those for a couple of reasons!

Allen

Allen:

I was just re-reading an article on Sellasia in an issue of Ancient Warfare. I was thinking how many interesting possibilities this would have for a game. The article relates how the Spartans were now equipped & trained in the "Macedonian fashion." Didn't Cleomenes also get some help from Ptolemy III? Maybe just money?

These Aventine guys should fit in well, size-wise, with Relic's Antiochus.

Regards, Dean

I wonder what miniatures from Aventine would best be used for Italian spearman, I already have a small unit of Extraordinaries. I've also about given up on bring the Balearic slingers, and just settle for Cretan archers.

This is looking like it is going to be a great range. JJartist all that attention to detail on helmets, greaves and straps etc and all you had to do was read the linked page and all would have been revealed…

"Please bear in mind that these will undergo a number of changes-
swords added , arms moved, straps added, armour detailed and heads shown are to assist handling during construction only and will be replaced during the second stages."
Anyway, great stuff Aventine- looking forward to future releases.

fantail; Their also working on spear-man for this range. I said this before Republican Romans are not my cup of tea, but between Keith and Adams beautiful figures and what's his book and or supplement, I will make this army work and Scipio will lead them!!!!!!

"and wondering if anyone would ever make armored phalangites in Pilos helmets. So I'm interested in those for a couple of reasons!"

-----> The Sellasia, Magnesia, and Raphia paintings by Igor Dzis are very inspiring works… yes the Spartan phalanx (as depicted in his painting) is an interesting variant on the norm, and may well also be a possible look for Tarentine phalangite/hoplites as well.

It looks like Aventine will have a spectacular range, I hope my small comments help.
JJ