"Warhammer Historical - what's happening?" Topic

apart from a newsletter a long time ago trumpeting a Trafalgar Turkish Fleet list heard nothing.

Most people seem to have a vague idea of what will be coming out in the future?

What's happening there in the brave new world?

Nothing – dead in the water .

I wonder if there will be anything happening at Salute?

I got the sense that they had lost interest, which I think is odd as Warhammer Ancients is very, very popular

Don't count it out yet.

If GW thinks there is a buck in it, then they may not let it die.

Raglan

Well Rick Priestly has certainly moved on – Black Powder and the soon to be released Hail Caesar.

I'm not quite sure what you are asking for. Once a set of rules has been published, what else is there, apart from applying the game engine to other periods (which in the case of Warhammer Historical has already happened to a large extent)?

The flaw is the system is although it follows the codex printing with the different supplements, it isn't a mechanism to sell GW figures other than some assorted figures that can be used for historical games. Also, if you follow history and an army has been covered in a supplement, what is left to do? I suppose another edition could come out if there were enough flaws in the rules but my understanding is that they were well written.

As stated above, Priestly has moved on to other projects as well. The real "tell" is that you constantly see the suplements being sold at big discounts from online hobby stores.

Who the heck knows, they have a total lack of regular communication skills with their consumers. :P :)

Who is this "Priestly" person? I know of none of that surname.

Although considering that the vendor has been touting both "Hail Caesar!" and "Hail Ceasar!", it could be anyone, possibly even someone with the correctly spelled name of Apricot Bumblebottom.

Allen

Then again, what is this "Warhammer Ancients"/ I know of "Warhammer Ancient Battles" and "Warmaster Ancients"--both of which seem to be losing popularity due to lack of support--but I am unfamiliar with anything that kluges them together.

Although I hear that "Forge World Ancient Ancients Battles" is soon to be released, with army lists for Romens and Lybians, and Sarmations. They all get chain macuahuitls and storm bolters, so they're not very different from each other, except the Lybians wear red (M5).

Allen

The "Hail Caesar" army deal at £0.00 GBP seems rather good value…

Like the puff "Think Black Powder without the Powder and you won't go too wrong"

Hope they got Lybians with a Khadaffi SC too!

In the old days support may not have mattered as once rules were out you could simply play without a great knowledge of how really popular they were etc. Your games would not change.

With the net folks need more and support is important to maintain interest and keep competative. WAB is in the hands people with no interest in them or concern about fans. The problem this year is that too many new good looking rules will flood the market and I guess WAB will be swept away.
Also these new rules are promising quick releases of army lists- a great failing in WAB.

A 200 page rule book for 30.00 pds, where will it end?

They have a WW2 set in the pipeline …. WI said the working title was panzerkrieg normandy ….

hmmmm more guys were killed by mortars in Normandy but I guess that wouldn't make a sexy title

You would THINK that GW would not let a money spinner die, but that is EXACTLY what they ARE doing. They have always felt uncomfortable about WAB and since it was handed over to FW it seems to have been all but abandoned, dumped at the bottom of a very big pile of far more important priorities.

They first shot themselves in the foot when they fired the fellow who ran WH. After a brief time of a WH spokeperson he too left, and was never replaced. After that, WH continued in name only, all actual work being done by generic FW staff, presumably fitting it in around all their other work. The impression is that there are no WH experts, no WH specialists, no employees focused on WH and only WH. Even at Salute, on the day they released WAB2, they had no one there, NO ONE, who was knowledgeable about WAB, not one person who could answer a single question about WAB2. And that was on release day! Pretty bloody poor.

They initiated a communications black out, so few truly know what is going on (which makes it far harder to be patient and stick with it).

Under the previous regime no new supplements had been released while WH concentrated on WAB2, but work on WAB2 had dragged on and on and on for years and all the while nothing at all WAB related emerged – despite the fact there were supplements finished and ready to go. And then FW came along and delayed things even further! WAB2 was already written and all but finished when FW got hold of it, yet still they managed to utterly mess it up with an unnecessary rewrite, eventually giving us a product that barely resembled the book they had received, and that was full of omissions and errors that hadn't been there when FW got the draft. So much hard work by so many for so long was just flushed down the drain. And when FW did finally release it at Salute, as I alluded to above, they sent only the sales trolls, without a single knowledgeable anybody amongst them. Who releases a new ruleset without sending someone who can answer at least some questions – or failing that, someone who can at least spin it? Bonkers.

They dropped the ball – and lost the good will of a good many of us – by mistreating some of the supplement contributors and would-be supplement contributors, who gave so much, yet were treated so shoddily. At least one of the authors has had his book finished for literally years, yet cannot get GW to get off their backsides and publish, yet who has been banned from releasing that material even on his own website! The work is done, the army lists are done, but no one can (officially) use them! Madness.

And then GW dropped the ball again with the release of the first WAB2 Supplements – AoA – or lack of. After yet more silence and yet more delay we were told they would finally arrive…last month. Of course they have not materialised. They probably intend to release it at Salute in a big fanfair, like they are doing us some kind of favour. But there is a lot of disenchantment now and they would REALLY have to pull the rabbit out of the hat to keep many of their players happy.

WAB will no doubt keep a hard core of players that continue to play the old supplements – in many cases using WAB 1 or 1.5. I doubt WAB will actually die out completely any time soon. But there is a definate shift away from WAB going on and it is a shift mostly of GW's own making.

But WAB was never a "money spinner" for GW. It was nothing but a sideline that kept some of their designers happy.

Who cares?

A lot of people actually 10thFoot. Not you, apparently, presumably because you are not involved?

And yes Derek, GW often considered WAB more of an embarassment than a top priority money spinner (after all, they didn't really "do" historicals), but it DID sell well and became one of the leading big historical rule sets. Compared to their fantasy and 40k lines it likely only brought in a fraction of the money, but compare it to other historical rulesets and it did rather well. If GW had supported WAB with figures WAB could actually have been a real BIG money spinner, even in GW terms.

Unfortunately GW never supported the books with miniatures ranges so once players had the books they wanted that was it. What GW got from selling the rulebooks and supplements alone could never have competed with GW's fantasy and 40k ranges, where they have thousands of miniatures to keep the money flowing in. Regular Supplements might have kept the money trickling GW's way, but for whatever reasons they have struggled to deliver even on those for the last few years. It does rather appear that GW has lost interest and opted to concentrate on easier, quicker, more lucrative options. Those in GW that might have cared about WAB seem to have moved on and started rival rulesets. And WAB players are increasingly taking notice of them. So all in all, WAB is sadly on the wane somewhat. It COULD have been a respectable money spinner, (it certainly had the fanbase for it) if only GW had taken it more seriously.

Scutatus – you only have to see what Battlefront are doing with FOW to see the possibilities.

On the other hand perhaps it was best GW didn't do historical ranges and let their designers and other companies have free reign.

The issue I have with WH is that it just feels like a 40K game with <insert period> models here.

"It does rather appear that GW has lost interest and opted to concentrate on easier, quicker, more lucrative options."

And you'd criticize a business for taking this sort of decision because….?

I got the impression that part of the deal struck with Priestly on his leaving would be that GW would close down historicals. With Rick doing Black Powder and Hail Caesar, he doesn't want to compete with his own GW products. So I figure he gave up some kind of rights to Warhammer and new Fantasy games in exchange for freedom to explore historicals on his own.

They ran out of history.

malcolm

Interesting point because WAB was originally not of GW but a private venture by the designers.

I was commenting on the state of things, not really intending to criticise, but since you mention it madaxeman, I "criticise" because on paper, it might look more profitable to go the way they are going, but in practice people aren't just walking statistics.

It hasn't gone without notice that after years of thriving and growing, albeit through some rough spots (that it always survived), that it is only now under direct FW/GW control that WAB is getting into serious trouble regarding its future. It has not gone unnoticed how, for all their big talk and hype, all they have really done is neglect the game, bit by bit, in small steps, frankly, killing it – without admitting that they actually ARE killing it. But when you look at their behaviour and lack of results, what else can they be trying to do?

I think that is what sticks in the throat the most, the underhanded way they are insidiously killing WAB just by not bothering with it. If they'd said "we're not supporting WAB anymore" there would have been initial upset, but we could have respected that. Slim chance though it was, someone could even have bought the game from them. But this way, keeping hold of it but not bothering with it, selling us empty promises that blow away in the wind and otherwise telling us nothing, deliberately disenchanting us and not caring, messing up a second edition that needed no fiddling with in the first place, mistreating writers that had given so much passion and devotion for so many years, not delivering supplements that have been ready and waiting to be printed for YEARS, and just not bothering to deliver anything and expecting us to be Ok with that, dragging out a slow decline of their own making for several years… Well, that is what gets to people.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if in one to two years WAB and the supplements become quietly unavailable all together – true to typical GW practice – an act they will justify by how the game "isn't selling". Well no Sherlock – it won't be selling well anymore because you took it out of stores, treated the supplement writers badly, gave us a sub-par mistake riddled screw up of a second edition (after much delay mind), didn't bother to talk to us, didn't deliver any bloody supplements and ed us off so much we abandoned WAB and played the alternatives!

Yes, it's their game to do that to – and to do whatever else they want as well- but that knowledge doesn't stop what is happening from sticking in my throat any less.

To clarify, it's not that they are apparently choosing to kill the game – it's the way they are going about it. They took a good thing and instead of making it great, and making it earn them money – which it could have done with proper development and support, (albeit with a bit of work)- they've simply abandoned it. A loyal community and a game over a decade old, that could still earn money and give them a good rep on the historical circuit (aka players who will buy their products) and they've just tossed it on the bonfire – without being honest and admitting that they actually have.

There's a lot of ill will being thrown in FW/GW's direction right now because of the way they have handled this. Is such ill will inclined to make us buy more of their products? Is that really good business practice? Good PR? In short, what looks good on paper isn't actually necassarily that good in reality.

Oh sure, a good hard core will continue to play what already exists, of that I have no doubt – there is still over ten years of jolly good material out there after all – but I don't see WAB remaining as big and as popular as it has been before, especially when the old supplements are withdrawn from sale. This fate could have been avoided. WAB didn't have to end up this way, it just didn't.

Then again, Maybe I'm just way off the mark(?).

"Games Workshop is the largest and the most successful tabletop fantasy and futuristic battle-games company in the world. Our major brands are Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000. In addition, we hold a global licence from New Line Cinema for a tabletop battle-game based on director Peter Jackson's BAFTA and Academy award winning film trilogy, The Lord of the Rings." That's their mission statement to investors. Fantasy and Futuristic. We may enjoy their other products but we have to resign ourselves to the fact that it's simply not what they are about. Perhaps they are missing opportunities. Perhaps they are firing/forcing out excellent talent. They are still in business after three decades selling a product that falls WAY WAY below food clothing shelter. How many other companies in the business can say that? Just playing Devil's advocate.

On a hopefully useful note, we have played WW1 / RCW with 4 different rulesets so its not as if there are not lots of other options.

Although I don't personally play WAB, it did originally get me (and clearly a lot of other people) into collecting/playing 28mm Ancients, so I do very much hope it survives in some form.

Simon

Tactitus – what you say doesn't devalue what Scutatus states.

I suppose GW's lose is Battlefront's gain as more gravitate to FOW.

And I expect the tourney crowd will pick up on one of the new sets.

"At least one of the authors has had his book finished for literally years, yet cannot get GW to get off their backsides and publish, yet who has been banned from releasing that material even on his own website! The work is done, the army lists are done, but no one can (officially) use them! Madness. "

@Scutatus – When you sign publishing contracts always ensure that you have a getout clause on them. I.e. if it's not published by company <xyz> by date <whenever> then the contract is null and void. If he didn't do that then more the fool him. I'd also hope that his contract had an publishing expiration date on it, i.e. around five years. Again if he signed his work away forever then he'll learn to not do that again.

I can appreciate your frustration with GW's treatment of WAB 2.0 but there's nothing stopping you from playing earlier versions. Heck I'm still happily playing WAB v1.5, I had no desire to move to V2.0 because v1.5 is doing what I want.

The good thing about books is that one is in good practice once the first is completed… if the author wishes to do another book, no contract can stop him from doing another if he deems it wise or the material worth investment, and if there is an audience that might want to read it. Sadly, the WAB Successor book having been mostly written seven years ago, and updated periodically, is more or less out of date with the volumes of new material available to gamers in the form of magazine articles, series of books and what not. Plus since ForgeWorld is wholly incompetant, there is no telling what miniatures they will find to grace such a publication- no doubt they will find plenty of kettle drummers from 1st Corps, from the WAB2 leftovers.

The WAB Successors submission is indeed perpetually locked up by Forgeworld/GW and it is their property … but them.. the Successors and their history is not their property so they can stick that up their Brettonian arses.

WAB is trying to be revitalized here in my community, some couragious folks really love WAB2. Others are looking for a new supported game, time only will tell, but the likelihood of a WAB2 resurgence continues to smolder rather than spark.

My preference is wholly biased, although wishing that WAB2 would spark and be supported, I recognize that is a fantasy and prefer to swing toward something more fun and new, and find a nice spot in the recycle bin for WAB2, take the good ideas from that and apply it as errata to WAB 1.5, of which their are plenty of available copies out there. If the new rules sets coming out don't float people's boats, then fall back on WAB 1.5, and I save strain on my arm carrying the textbook volume.
JJ

I did hear that all the supplement authors had their fees paid in full by GW/FW so they had their material rewards if not their ego ones.

Jeff

I suppose there would be nothing stopping you amending the Successors draft and re-purposing it for other rules sets say Hail Ceasar or Cesar or Casear. Does the contract restrict you from publishing anything in the same vein, I suspect not? It would be a different games system so not comparable and no infringement of copyrights and so on?

With a bit of luck you could get paid twice for the same thing ;)

Never used one.

Now I want one.

He would likely appreciate the strength of the bear, the speed of the cat and the stoic might of the rock for three seconds before having the marines kill them all in a furious charge with overbearing amounts of firepower.

The last two posts were obvious attempts by the Chinese IP police to keep me from posting this:

"I did hear that all the supplement authors had their fees paid in full by GW/FW so they had their material rewards if not their ego ones."

------> All did not include me. Hence the name calling insurgency.

My previous contract with Warhammer Historical was honored with half payment in 2007. In 2009 ForgeWorld asked me to sign a new contract with a new compensation amount. I notified them that the amount that I had signed with GW/WHW was higher than that, and that I had already received half upon submission in 2007. I notified them that I already had a viable contract and should not have to sign a new one, but I did on good faith that they would honor it. We mitigated the difference, but I could have been a SOB there, but unwisely decided not to do that.

ForgeWorld representatives sent me an amended contract in which my second half amount (amended) would be the final completion amount upon submission of a WAB2 accepted MS. This submission was completed in June of 2010. They acknowledged receipt of the submission. I have received no word of any date for publication, progress, or process since then. I have not received the second half of my contracted fees. So I can say that I have not received full payment- I have received no payment from Forgeworld, but I did receive half from WHW.

So if anything them (Forgeworld) threatening and telling me not to publish the materials on my website is really at my discretion, not theirs, since they have not in good faith completely honored their contract either. I only refrain from self publishing the materials to honor the faint hope that they may actually do something with the work. My assumption is that they will use the lists for their AoA concoction and that will be the end of it.

But for now I am happy to call them names and air out the dirty laundry, up until they pay me off, let me self publish the material, or tell me to go pound sand and they aren't going to either pay, or print the supplement as has been submitted… at that time my action will be easy.

The clearest issue with ForgeWorld and WAB, and one I immediately ran into, is the devastatingly impersonal attitude they give-- one could immediately tell that nobody there had a clue or wanted anything to do with the product (GW giving a solid clue that anybody associated with the product would be made redundant is certainly a way to reduce the surge of volunteers!).

No one person has any contact with the developers, it is impossible to get any information except from Martin Gibbons, who is not an employee, himself. So that immediately began an erosion of interest on my part. I have heard that other supplements were also submitted and paid for, and are now sat upon by Forgeworld.. the Greek and Persian Wars were apparently paid off, the Romans under Caesar were contracted and I assume paid off- these may be the source of claims that "all" authors have been paid off, although there were others in close proximity of completion such as the Steppe Warriors book, which is it goes unpublished will no doubt be a great loss to gamers given the talents of John.

I actually have no problem with not being paid off, I would just be happy to disseminate the materials without dealing with threats, that would be excellent closure for me and them- and I would feel mitigation… but no they wanted me to apologize that I had accidently breached their agreement…. but I now have only two words for them.

So,as you might have guessed, I have much respect for some of my friends at GW, and former employees as well, I have no respect for ForgeWorld.
JJ

aecurtis said "after the exorbitant price tag for the little goodness that you get. But these days, the ultra-glossy Gucci rule-sets are as a general rule poorly written and poorly proofread. You already know the problems with Flames of War!"

Allen has hit the nail on the head – before you all go running off spending your £30.00 GBP or $50 USD hard earned cash (unless you are a multi-millionaire) on these super glossy books of rules, remember they are someone's own interpretation of the events 1000's of years ago and doesn't mean they are correct, nor does the price tag help in editing or making rules that make sense.

Recently rule-sets have become more expensive (£30 / $50 USD is now the norm' even though printing prices have plummeted over the past decade to literally a couple of dollars!) than some pretty decent books on the ancient and medieval period and the historical books will give you a far better understanding the knowledge you need to enact your games with metal / plastic figures………

I liked WAB and still do, but I liked the supplements even more…particularly Alexander the Great, Hannibal and the Punic Wars, The Age of Arthur, Byzantium and the Golden Gate and the two that really got me into WAB – El Cid and Shieldwall – all excellent and will be the standard to beat – de facto.

Perhaps the fact that Mr Priestly's new (and more expensive)ancient rule set is about to be published is an indication as to why WAB is being allowed to wither on the vine?

The issue I have with WH is that it just feels like a 40K game with <insert period> models here.

--------------------------------------------------------------
Or perhaps 40K feels like a historical game with sci-fi models :-)
not an issue that many other people appear to have judging by the comments on here – not sure what what aspects you are referring too – most people don't field characters and the fun aspects though anathema i know to some of the filled chemise brigade who fondly believe that their historical simulations are so much more realistic, make for a fun game of toy soldiers

"some couragious folks really love WAB2"

Not trying to be sarcastic but one doesn't need courage to like a set of wargames rules, nor to kick a pigs bladder around or run a race at the Olympics etc – to work as a fireman say at a Japanese power station pumping out radiation or fly a chopper over it dropping water – that is courage as I am sure all on here will agree

JJ

What does Martin Gibbins say about the situation then? I was told by one of the supplement authors he was "paid off" – his phrase.

Can Martin help facilitate the settlement?

I like WAB and will continue to use it as I am too lazy to learn a new set.

personally I do wish that forgeworld get their fingers out and publish the Successors, Caesars wars and the Greek and Persian wars books out! (praying that Pontics are included in one of them!)

I am not holding my breath nor waiting for Rick Priestley's "hail Caesar' apparently rehash of his earlier rule set warmaster ancients, or the shocking thing that passes as a Napoleonic ruleset "black powder" IMHO. (brilliant marketing and saving of time on his behalf though)

cheers
matt

I thought "The Great War" was a good set of rules. Unfortunately, the promised supplement never came out, so I can't field the Yanks like I wanted to.

I will keep WAB2 and play it if the opportunity arises and I own the armies which it covers. That said, it has sat on the shelf since the day of ownership because the opportunity to play it isn't there, despite the insistence of some that it's alive and kicking and going strong. Here, it's not. Dead in fact.

In many ways I'm not that bothered now. I think the re-write improved some things but was a disaster in many respects which IMO the voluminous errata pays tribute to. I'm not really fussed if AoA comes out either now and would certainly wait a long time to see if there was a flurry of problems with it before shelling out again.

As Madexeman says, personally I have little problem if FW ditch it because it's not seen as a runner, just a pity they published WAB2 which was seen by some as the act that would open up the bottle neck of stalled supplements. I wonder how many would have been sold if it was with the knowledge that "That's it folks".

I do think it's shame that it's gone this way and, if the plan was to ditch it, it's a shame it had to go this way. Others I am sure would have bought it out and continued. But, for me at least, time, rule sets and certainly any faith I may have in FW have moved on. I'm really happy for those that do get to play and for those happy to stick with WAB if it fulfills their gaming needs. Other than what I own for it now though I'd rather go with a rule set that's getting played and looks like it might get some continued support, which like WAB of course, can change at any time.

@GNREP I found Mud & Blood more fun as a game of toy soldiers myself :-). As to accuracy no real complaints, though I did think the Eldar Bright Lance was a bit too good against MK IV frontal armour :-D

@Gribby you can pretty much extrapolate from the rules, we played Easter Front so had to derive Russians, Austrians, Greeks etc

WAB2 has just proved too frustrating for me I'm afraid (gee can you tell?) I no longer hold out any hope that the long awaited Successors, Crusades, Rome etc will now see the light of day in any form other than some half arsed spiritless two page list in an AoA, "adapted" from other people's work by disinterested, unknowledgeable staff, whose minds will be on something else – like maybe Imperial Armour 25 – rather than the Roman Army of the late Republic. I suspect that the end result (assuming we ever see any end results) will be lists so streamlined, bastardised and messed about with that the original contributors will barely recognise their work. And the more I read of Jeff Jonas's experiences the even more ticked off I get. If that's at all possible. In short, the magic's gone. It's just gone.

And so, although WAB and WAB 1.5 and all the lovely beautiful Supplements that did get published have given me some wonderful experiences and memories (ten years of my life is not to be sneezed at), these days my attention – and that of a lot of other WABites – is increasingly on alternatives such as Clash of Empires, (or Hail Caesar, or War and Conquest) that look to be able to give me everything that I am looking for AND will be properly and professionally supported by the game's passionate creators. In the case of Great Escape Games and Clash of Empires they are open, informative and approachable, generally reply to most enquiries in a matter of hours and have pledged five books and numerous free online PDF lists in two and a bit years – with the first two books within the first year of release. That is far more impressive and far better PR than the FW approach, to say the least.

Although WAB will likely continue in some diminished form (even I may revisit WAB 1.5 and BTGG again one day – when I'm less bitter) – as I see the situation it's none the less pretty much the end of an era really. It will be interesting to see what things look like this time next year.

FW will be at Salute – no announcement yet of new product

At the recent Cold Wars, I met three supplement writers ( one published, two unpublished), standing in the registration line, that told the exact same story just related by Jeff.

Well, I must say that Forgeworld has responded to my cavalcade of criticisms here, and I can now say they have honored their commitments, much quicker than I could have predicted.
I can now say that I have been fully compensated for my agreed upon sum.

I certainly do tire of being a real snit about WAB, it is as they say-- a tempest in a teacup, I apologize to the Forgeworld people, I know they are not jerks.

Obviously many aspects of my commitment to my various WAB projects came with an unexpected emotional cost, a cost that I still bear, and often times clouds my judgement.

What I can say is that from now on I can deal with Forgeworld on a clear basis, starting over from square one. I have no lofty expectations that they will wish to continue with me, but I will refrain from comments on WAB as a product and focus on my games and my miniatures, and help here, when and if I can.
thanks for all the support
Jeff Jonas