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"The best scale of vehicles for 28mm figures" Topic


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GOTHIC LINE MINIATURES06 Mar 2011 10:54 a.m. PST

What is in your opinion the best scale for "real" 28mm figures:28mm foot to eye not the tiny 25mm which are sometimes confused as 28mm.

Some use 1/56,other prefer bigger scales like 1/50 and 1/48.

In some cases 28mm figures are rather a style than a scale per say,I am currently sculpting many 28mm and would like to have some vehicles scratch built to go with them but scale is still in a Grey area!

Mardaddy06 Mar 2011 11:07 a.m. PST

I use 1/48, but that is due to the convenience of having so much available across the spectrum in that scale (and even then I really feel there is not enough!!)

Phillius Supporting Member of TMP06 Mar 2011 11:15 a.m. PST

1/48 is convenient, but the 1/56 I have seen next to figures, mimicing WWII photographs, makes them the best fit purely in terms of scale.

Schogun Supporting Member of TMP06 Mar 2011 12:01 p.m. PST

1/56 has become the de facto scale for 28mm. Sorry to disagree with Mardaddy, but there are far more vehicles available in 1/56 now than 1/48 -- at least for WWII.

Goldwyrm06 Mar 2011 12:16 p.m. PST

I use 1/48 or 1/50 vehicles. I wouldn't say 1/56 has become the de facto scale for 28mm. So much depends on the make of figures and how they are based.

Caesar06 Mar 2011 12:25 p.m. PST

I collect 1/48.
Some of the guys I play with collect 1/56 and 1/48.
The last time I saw 1/48 next to 1/56, it really brought home how 1/56 is too small for 28mm models. A 251 is supposed to carry 10 guys, not 3.

GOTHIC LINE MINIATURES06 Mar 2011 12:40 p.m. PST

Caesar has won the cigar,or the cake!!!!

Warlord06 Mar 2011 12:40 p.m. PST

1:48th 1:50th is the one for me.

There are a whole LOT more availiable for 1:48th 1:50th scales than the smaller and many more choices of companies.

I saw a Jeep in 1:56th scale that a friend had purchased, it looked more like a go-cart than a jeep so he kept the crew and got rid of the Jeep. I'm with Caesar on that one, when you get to the smaller vehicles types you REALLY see the problem with the smaller 1:56th scale.

GOTHIC LINE MINIATURES06 Mar 2011 12:42 p.m. PST

Goldwyrm also,in my opinion,like myself has doubts about the alleged 1/56 scale it does not work sometimes due to being very small…

GOTHIC LINE MINIATURES06 Mar 2011 12:44 p.m. PST

Warlord I think some guys here did the same with the Half track 251,its just small,like Caesar said it is a long vehicle for good number of men,manufacturers are mistaken!!!or is it that they think people do not notice?

Lee Brilleaux Fezian06 Mar 2011 1:10 p.m. PST

I asked some guys who play WH40K about this.

They said, "1/35", "1/24", "What is this scale thing?" and "I just buy what they tell me to buy!"

Mick in Switzerland06 Mar 2011 1:13 p.m. PST

I am very firmly in the 1/48 to 1/50 camp.

Personal logo aegiscg47 Supporting Member of TMP06 Mar 2011 1:23 p.m. PST

1/48th is definitely the best fit for 28mm figs. With the heft of the figures, the base size, etc., they look better even if 28mm scales out numbers wise closer to 1/56th. For comparison, put a German 28mm squad next to a Solido or Tamiya halftrack then place them next to a 1/56 halftrack. The larger size looks much better.

idontbelieveit06 Mar 2011 1:49 p.m. PST

who besides tamiya make 1/48?

eptingmike06 Mar 2011 2:00 p.m. PST

Hobbyboss has some T-34s, KVs, and Shermans. I think Hasegawa has some Japanese vehicles and maybe a Jeep, and I think Italeri has a Puma and maybe a few others. Verlinden does a couple resin guns like an 88mm.

Mainly28s06 Mar 2011 2:11 p.m. PST

1:56th.

Pizzagrenadier06 Mar 2011 2:33 p.m. PST

Kind of subjective considering there is no consistent scale or more accurately, size, across the selection of 28mm miniature manufacturers. Best to pick what figs you like and match them with what you like.

Sorry, but there is no correct "answer" to this.

Personal logo BAMeyer Sponsoring Member of TMP06 Mar 2011 3:54 p.m. PST

"Sorry, but there is no correct "answer" to this."

I have to agree completely. Given the height and heft variations within figure ranges called 28mm, the thickness of the bases used for your figs and whether or not you base your vehcles there could never be one specific anaswer.

Scale is in the eye of the beholder.

GOTHIC LINE MINIATURES06 Mar 2011 4:24 p.m. PST

Many agree on the correct feel you get on 1/50 and 1/48 vehicles,this is not without reason.

We use our miniatures according to availability,but also according to just what the industry throws our way.

This confusion derives first from MOST 25mm figures being referred as 28mm thus vehicles for 25mm also find their way in the stores as 28mm friendly(which they are not).

Why? because it is ok to have a vehicle look a bit bigger than a man(its normal)but to have opposite:a minute vehicle next to a big Marine is just non sense,loosing all realism.

Warlord06 Mar 2011 4:33 p.m. PST

who besides tamiya make 1/48?

Hobby Boss
Solido
Corgi
Verem
Presision Model Designs
Classic Armor Diecast
Hasagawa
Gaso.line

Just from the top of my head…

Goldwyrm06 Mar 2011 5:34 p.m. PST

Adding to Warlord's list
OOP Bandai on ebay
21st Century Toys/1:48 Ultimate Soldier
Imprint Models (very nice 1/50 moderns)

Augustus06 Mar 2011 8:05 p.m. PST

Go 1:48

28mm Fanatik06 Mar 2011 9:05 p.m. PST

I collect 1/48 solely because to me they look right next to my slotta-based 28mm figures, but 1/56 is considered to be the official vehicle scale to 28mm and that's the scale wargaming model companies support.

With the exception of Precision Model Design, 1/48 (and their close cousin 1/50) WWII vehicles are not supported in the gaming industry. They're either complex multi-part kits (e.g., Tamiya, Hobbyboss, AFV Club or OOP Bandai) or pre-built/prepainted collector toys (e.g., Solido/Verem, Corgi, Classic Armor Diecast, or Hobby Master) not specifically meant for gamers.

Again, accept that there will never be consensus on this topic for some. It's a matter of personal taste and opinion. I have to concede that 1/56 based vehicles don't look wrong next to unbased 28mm figures, even the chunky ones. Not that I'm going to convert from 1/48 to 1/56, mind you:

link

link

link

link

deldietch07 Mar 2011 2:16 a.m. PST

I don't get it, as this argument is a little baited.

Fact 1:48 models scale with 1:48 figures. 1:48 vehicles are compatible with 28mm miniatures.

28mm miniatures scale with 1:56 models.

Pictures worth a thousand words:
1:48 Chaffee with 28mm Artizan and three 1:48 figures.
picture

There is a substantial size difference in height from 1/48 to 28mm:
picture

Notice the sherman size to height.
picture


The question is, will folks mix 1:48 miniatures and 28mm miniatures? Why not? if they both use 1:48 vehicles, they should match perfectly. (Tamiya plastics maybe yes. Metals, I doubt it) But Tamiya plastic 1:48 are also about 10% smaller than my Corgi, Hobby Boss, Dartmor, Tank Museum, and Gas.oline miniature soldiers. So then what is a true 1/48 miniature? I used the Hobby Boss ones in the examples, since they are designed and come with their 1/48 tanks. if 28mm miniatures are a little smaller that 1:48 miniatures… then it should follow that smaller 1:56ish vehicles would match up well with 28mm miniatures.

The crux of the argument is that 1:56 models are indeed scaled to many of the 28mm miniatures out there. 1:48 models are "compatible" with many 28mm miniatures and scale well with other miniatures that fall into the 28mm category, but are actually a bit larger. After that, it's personal preference. But the idea that a 1/56 model is too small for a 28 to 30mm miniature is a bit of a stretch. Now, when the actual figure is over 32mm, then you can argue things the other way around.

A solution of course would be for someone to do some actual 1:56 scale miniatures (in girth, and height) though I suppose that would have the same issues as 1:48 miniatures getting adopted for gaming.

The scale argument is a bit self defeating. Instead of worrying about it, you could be asking all the "small" 1/56 companies to create models that are not available at all in any scale. It's a no brainer that the 1:48 big boys are not going to release the more unusual models, or those from the earlier war periods. There is no money in it. The 1/56 companies would probably consider a model that wold sell 20 to 40 units, instead of the 1000's needed to cover a kit in 1/48.

deldietch07 Mar 2011 2:26 a.m. PST

LUSITANUS

If you make bulky 28mm on a thick base, it's a toss up. You might as well go 30mm and be compatible with both scales and have 1:50 vehicles.

I'd caution that Gas.oline did this, but has not really done much more with it, as sales have not been that great. If you do a line, I'd suggest looking for what holes your offerings will fill, in either scale, and go that route if it looks like sales will cover and surpass the costs.

If however you are doing true slim 28mm figures, 1/55 would be a no brainer. You'd sell more models assuming it wasn't another sherman, tiger, etc, etc.

Cerdic07 Mar 2011 2:48 a.m. PST

This is an interesting read with some good pictures….

link

Caesar07 Mar 2011 7:12 a.m. PST

"but 1/56 is considered to be the official vehicle scale to 28mm and that's the scale wargaming model companies support."

It was not the case until 6-8 years ago when some wargaming model companies decided to go with 1/56 and the half-cooked reasoning behind it to convince us. I strongly suspect they did this because they couldn't remain competitive with larger model company prices.

Their argument falls apart when you measure the actual models and see that 28mm are, firstly, taller than 28mm (measured to the eye, the neck, the knee…) and they are "girthier" than 1/56.

The ultimate proof that they are wrong by claiming their 1/56 models fit 28mm is that all of the weapons and equipment they put on their "1/56" models are larger scale even than 1/48! If they had any faith in their assertion that 1/56 matches 28mm they would not distort the scale of weapons and equipment. Not to mention that this actually means their models are not scale models at all.

GOTHIC LINE MINIATURES07 Mar 2011 7:24 a.m. PST

This article is one of the best ever written on 1/48,28mm scales,have seen it on several forums.
As to the pictures the do show just what I was talking about:

Fact:25mm figures are not 28mm so here is the main problem.

I will try my best to make some vehicles to match (true) 28mm figures,deldietch to cater to most and not just a niche,"at the end of the day"most of us end up manufacturing Kubels & Tigers because that is what people want,availability talks,but I have some oddballs in store too!

The pictures show a lot of compatible tanks and vehicles at 1/50,1/48 but those that do look smaller could be 25mm rather than 28mm.

The American vehicles and some of the Half tracks do look smaller.
I have been collecting minis and vehicles since almost the dawn of the hobby,1/50,1/48,1/43,1/56 are all great but I favor the bigger ones for accuracy and good object/machine to man true size relation.

idontbelieveit07 Mar 2011 8:00 a.m. PST

The 1/48 ones look nice and have a good size. I don't really do assembly though, so that might be a problem.

Guthroth07 Mar 2011 12:43 p.m. PST

There are also tons of 'Matchbox' models available in the 1/48 – 1/50 scale range. Lots from the interwar period and ideal for VBCW or early war. Some can be got from Ebay for 2-3 GBP each. Of course they need a re-paint and teh 'collectors' will howl but …

FireZouave08 Mar 2011 5:03 a.m. PST

This has been discussed before and argued. I am of the 1/48 scale vehicle for 28mm. The article in the link says it best. You can't go by height to match a figure with scale when the figures are all giant dwarfs!

GOTHIC LINE MINIATURES08 Mar 2011 6:59 a.m. PST

AHAHHAHA come on FireZouave,good point and yes some of our answers give a sense of flashback,but my question aimed at the resolution of the problem 25mm/28mm.

Some figures produced today are different from those made in the Nineties,good sculptors are more aware of anatomic aspects.

Lion in the Stars08 Mar 2011 12:20 p.m. PST

Don't bring 40kay into this: Their guns are vastly overscale. I bought a 1/35 M109 Paladin. The gun on a Basilisk is a little bigger, even though the basilisk supposedly has a smaller bore than the Paladin's 155mm.

I prefer the look of 1/48 vehicles versus slottabased infantry, but there are some vehicles that just don't look right, even in 1/48 scale (like my 1/48 Osprey).

SgtPerry09 Mar 2011 5:26 a.m. PST

When I began to collect 28mm figures for my WW2 games in 2003, I decided not to use 1/48 vehicles (even if I already had some Solido toys).

I game with 1/60-1/56 vehicles and more than 100 vehicles later I'm very happy with them.

link

Olivier

Dexter Ward09 Mar 2011 7:00 a.m. PST

Caesar wrote:
The last time I saw 1/48 next to 1/56, it really brought home how 1/56 is too small for 28mm models. A 251 is supposed to carry 10 guys, not 3.
----------------------
That's a problem with the 'cartoon proportion' figures, not with the scale of the vehicle.
1/56 is the right scale – if the guys won't fit, it means the guys are too big, not that the vehicle is too small.

SgtPerry09 Mar 2011 7:30 a.m. PST

@Dexter Ward: and do not forget the base, the posture and the rigidity of the figures. I'm not really sure that you can put 10 28mm panzergrenadiers with 25mm round bases in a 1/48 Sdkfz251 either.

Goose66609 Mar 2011 8:13 a.m. PST

1:56th for me.
If you see the real size of a 251, yes it will carry 10 men, but its very very cramped. I am 6'3" and i can look over the side into one just.

I find 1:48 way too big. I know die cast 1:50th have been popular, but there are more and more vehicles available in 1:56th.

And yes 28mm figures are not human proportioned, its down to scaling and how they appear to the human eye/brain.

The biggest factor me is "looking right to my eye". If i think the figures and vehicles look good and are in proprotion to their supposed period counterpart vehicles then thats all I care about. I am not a model fanatic or rivet counter who will spend hours bemouning the fact that one MG34 barrel is longer than another.

Caesar09 Mar 2011 9:13 a.m. PST

"That's a problem with the 'cartoon proportion' figures, not with the scale of the vehicle.
1/56 is the right scale if the guys won't fit, it means the guys are too big, not that the vehicle is too small."

I don't want to sound insulting, but that is a poor argument. You can't argue that the scale of the vehicles matches the guys and then say that they don't match and it is the fault of the infantry.
If they infantry are too big for 1/56, then 1/56 isn't the right scale for them.
If I tried that argument at home, then it's not my pants that are too small for me, it's that I am too big for my pants. My wife would tell me: Well, then get a size that fits.
It also doesn't address the fact that 1/56 scale models have got upscaled weapons and equipment to artificially make it seem like they match 28mm models.

"and do not forget the base, the posture and the rigidity of the figures. I'm not really sure that you can put 10 28mm panzergrenadiers with 25mm round bases in a 1/48 Sdkfz251 either."

The base size is not a factor. The factor is the dimensions of the models. 28mm are too wide and deep to fit 10 naturally in a 1/56 scale 251. The models are literally too girthy that the passenger compartment of a 1/56 251 could not carry more than three.

If you want to use 1/56, go ahead. As I mentioned above, I have friends that use 1/56 and we play with both scale models on the table, we are happy and never discuss the size issues. But the size issues do exist and clown-car vehicles are not to my liking.

Caesar09 Mar 2011 9:24 a.m. PST

For illustrative purposes:
The first vehicle is 1/48, the others are 1/56.

:-)

picture

GOTHIC LINE MINIATURES09 Mar 2011 10:31 a.m. PST

Sgt Perry (Oliver) are you sure your Kubelwaggen is correct / to scale with the driver sitting on it?
It does look really small for that driver,its difficult to have a clear point on this its like what I have wrote earlier : "25mm is not 28mm"and many people are under the impression that it is…people often say:25/28mm figures…

GOTHIC LINE MINIATURES09 Mar 2011 10:33 a.m. PST

In my humble opinion Caesar still has a point and the 251 troop carrier is still a very big vehicle even if cramped its supposed to carry an important number of soldiers…

Caesar09 Mar 2011 12:15 p.m. PST

"people often say:25/28mm figures"

That's because of scale creep. 25mm models were a common size, then some companies started selling larger models but calling them 25s ("measured to the eyes…"). These were sometimes called Heroic 25s. But what is 25mm to the eyes? Another three millimeters taller, so let's call them 28s. But, of course, that meant that sculptors started making "large scale 28s", 28mm "measured to the eyes". So 28s are really taller than 30mm.

SgtPerry09 Mar 2011 12:53 p.m. PST

@Lusitanus : The kubelwagen is a big car so you can load as many guys as in a Sdkfz251!

picture

:)

Olivier

GOTHIC LINE MINIATURES09 Mar 2011 3:23 p.m. PST

Indeed Oliver,they just dont make them like they used to!LOL

Great picture!a lot of guys took a ride,I remember one of a BMW with side car transporting 6 paratroopers I think,3 on the bike 3 on the side car !!! LOL!!!

28mm Fanatik09 Mar 2011 10:18 p.m. PST

28mm really has no 'right' counterpart vehicle scale. Like many others, my entry into 28mm wargaming is due in large part to Warhammer 40K, which uses vehicles that are of an unspecified scale. Most people think they're somewhere between 1/48 and 1/35 scale, but who really knows? They're certainly not 1/56, 1/60 or 1/64.

Many of the beefier 28mm lines (like Artizan and the new Warlord releases) are similar in style, size and bulk to GW Cadians and look more compatible with 1/48 1/50 vehicles if mounted on GW bases. And if you thought Artizan and the newer Warlord releases are too big to be true 28mm, there are even larger/chunkier '28mm' lines from Victory Force, 1st Corps, Renegade and Chiltern.

Look at the chart below the 1/48 Tamiya Marder in the link below. I'm beginning to agree with Caesar that 1/56 = 28mm is a myth perpetuated by companies who want to corner the 28mm WWII vehicle market:

link

SgtPerry10 Mar 2011 2:19 a.m. PST

I would have say the exact opposite.. :)

1/48 = 28mm is a myth perpetuated by people who have tons 1/48 vehicles (except a Sdkfz251/D). And I perfectly understand that they do not want to switch to 1/56.

If one day, I decide to game with 1/48 vehicles, it would be with 1/48 minis, not 28mm. So it would be a so big change that I can chose to go 20mm instead (though problems exist 1/72, 1/76 etc.) or 15mm ( and I do not event mention the fact that BF figures are not at the same scale than their tanks).

Olivier

Warlord10 Mar 2011 7:06 a.m. PST

1:48th and 1:56th scale is a true scale in their own right. You can reduce a real vehicle to either of these scales and have the guns, hatches, tracks, wheels, and so on match and remain consistent in scale. However when you reduce a real man to a 28mm miniature, the same does not happen. His arms, head, hands, get bigger yet shrink in proportion with his body, his rifle gets bigger and so on that is a problem finding a "True" scale for (if you blew up a 28mm miniature to a real man it would be a grotesque thing that most would not call a man). As mentioned above even vehicles makers are making the MMGs larger so they will match the ones on the 28mm miniature. Not very noticeable on the larger vehicles but on smaller armored vehicles you have MGs almost as big as the tank guns.

Now having this problem of an over size 28mm miniature in girth you want to further exasperate the problem by making a smaller vehicle and saying it is the "true" scale? Seeing those models in the hatch of an armored vehicles looks like they had to oil the hatch opening so they could squeeze out. There is no true scale for the 28mm miniature because the 28mm miniature is not "true scale" it self Period.

1:56th is too small, until you change the 28mm miniature and have them done in proper proportion (a true scaled down representation) they are not and will never be true to scale with 1:56th, to say 1:56th is the correct scale with 28mm knowing this fact does not make any sense. If you prefer this that that is fine (or say it is the better fit in your opinion) but it is very misleading to propagate this as fact when it is clearly not.

If folks out there want to cram their 28mm miniatures into small 1:56th scale vehicles, that is fine. If folks want to add wargaming bases to their 28mm miniatures as well as their integral bases and believe they are more in line with 1:48 1:50th scale that is fine. But to say for a fact, to present as truth that 1:56th equates to 28mm in the current miniature line is wrong. I can't emphasize this enough.

I for one will continue to use 1:48th 1:50th scale vehicles as well as many others with the current 28mm market of miniatures.

It was not the case until 6-8 years ago when some wargaming model companies decided to go with 1/56 and the half-cooked reasoning behind it to convince us. I strongly suspect they did this because they couldn't remain competitive with larger model company prices.

This is a good point Caesar, one of the best I have seen in a long while. I believe this could be the heart of the matter, It seems that by selling (convincing) this point to the public give these companies a monopoly on this scale as they are the major providers (if not the only ones) of this 1:56th scale. You want a vehicle in this scale (1:56th); you have to get it from this company(s). This raises a very good point and one to consider thanks Caesar for that insight.

There are some very good points made here and in the end it is your choice. I am just glad to see the 28mm W.W. II lines ever expanding.

Just my thoughts

Warlord

Warlord10 Mar 2011 7:09 a.m. PST

If one day, I decide to game with 1/48 vehicles, it would be with 1/48 minis, not 28mm.

I would think the same wouls hold true with 1:56th scale also since it is not the true scale for 28mm miniatures either.

…So it would be a so big change that I can chose to go 20mm instead (though problems exist 1/72, 1/76 etc.) or 15mm ( and I do not event mention the fact that BF figures are not at the same scale than their tanks).

Actually if you want to go with a true scale in WWII that would be the way, however I bet it has its challenges also.

The biggest factor me is "looking right to my eye". If i think the figures and vehicles look good and are in proprotion to their supposed period counterpart vehicles then thats all I care about. I am not a model fanatic or rivet counter who will spend hours bemouning the fact that one MG34 barrel is longer than another

I like this, "looking right to my eye" has the facts and letting you know there are issues but going with what he likes thumbs up

In my humble opinion Caesar still has a point and the 251 troop carrier is still a very big vehicle even if cramped its supposed to carry an important number of soldiers…

And it is understood they dont get into it with their bases intact wink and it is a execelent point

Warlord

SgtPerry10 Mar 2011 7:38 a.m. PST

And it is understood they dont get into it with their bases intact wink and it is a execelent point

Without the bases, I would have no problem to put enough minis in my 1/56 Sdkfz251 to look like this pic :

picture

Just look at this AAR, I put only 2 minis by vehicle because of the 20x20mm bases but it remains a lot of free space.

link

Without bases I have no problem inserting several minis in a 1/56 vehicle providing of course they have a good (neutral) posture.

link

So IMHO, this is not a valid point.

Olivier

GOTHIC LINE MINIATURES10 Mar 2011 8:14 a.m. PST

SgtPerry are you absolutely sure those arent 25mm fgures?

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