"West German 1985 Mech Inf Composition?" Topic

Hello,

I am looking for the basic rundown of a 1985 West German Mechanized Infantry Platoon composition, in Marder IFVs.

And if I am lucky; what were the company and Battalion support assets avaliable?

Do the esteemed forum mates have this information or know where I can find it?

Thank you

Going from memory here, so take with a pinch of salt, but the basic platoon was 3 Marders, each with, umm, 7 dismounts at that stage (Marder 1A3s reduced it to 6, but earlier models had 7 dismounts iirc.) Weapons would be G3s, one 40mm granatepistole (issued to the squad leader, but farmed out to a rifleman as the squad leader ought to be busy….) one MG3, and one G3-SG1 marksman. Uzis for the Marder crew should they have to bail…. Company was 3 platoons, plus a CHQ track, and a "reserve" section for 11 vehicles total. Company HQ section didn't have an MG3 iirc, but may have a Redeye SAM attached for good measure.

Anti-armour weapons would be one Milan per platoon at that stage, with the other two sections in the platoon having a Panzerfaust 44. Armbrust disposables scattered around as supply and posture dictated. Battalion support was minimal – mortar platoon with 120mm SPs on M113 chassis is it I believe.

Finally, I think in '85 they were still at the 2+1 organisation, with the third company in each battalion having M113s instead of Marders. Their small arms would be the same, but with 11 man sections instead of 7, and probably no Milan, just the Faust 44 in each section.

I think….

Try this link:

link

Armbrust disposables scattered around as supply and posture dictated.

There seems to be some debate as to whether the Armbrust saw service with the West Germans.

Darryl – that link's Heeresstruktur 5, which was introduced in 1995.

<Quick rummage through site…. Bingo!>

link

Heeresstruktur 4, which is right for the 1980s – looks like my memory was less defective than usual – no reserve squad in the M113 company, but otherwise on the money….

Dom.

PS – Geoff, hadn't come across that at all re: Armbrust – live and learn. Maybe….

Final PS – I'm not sure if the Carl Gustav fits in there at all – I know the Jagers used it, but not sure if it supplemented or replaced the Panzerfaust 44 for the Panzergrenadiers, or if it wasn't issued to them given the number of Milan available.

It came up when I was talking about making a pack of them for our 15mm postwar German range. Although produced in Germany, apparently it was a private venture and only saw service elsewhere. I am told the photos showing West German uniforms holding them are MBB publicity shots for sales purposes, not in-service shots.

Even Wiki doesn't list Germany as a user: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armbrust

Not that that stops wargamers wanting them, hence we made a pack anyway. :-)

Having had a rummage that appears to make sense actually – Carl Gustav was classed as schwere panzerfaust, and the PzFst 44 as leichte panzerfaust, so both were used side-by-side, leaving nowhere for Armbrust to be issued as it were – the 44 *was* the LAW. Mind you, I still wouldn't find them implausible if the Red hordes came on I guess…. ;-) Looks like that means the non-Milan sections had the Carl Gustav as well in the panzer grenadier platoons, while even the Milan-equipped ones may well have a Faust 44….

There was also a Mixed Panzer-Grenadier Battalion organisation which used essentially the same organisation, though included a panzer company instead of the fourth (M113) panzer-grenadier company. The Mixed Panzer Battalion organisation similarly had a panzer-grenadier company in place of one panzer company. However, I seem to remember that not all of these had a full battalion mortar company.

Allocation of Milan eventually increased to 1 per section (3 per platoon), but this probably wasn't achieved until the late 80s.

Re Armbrust – I tend to agree, though it is very difficult to discover facts. I've discovered that Wiki editors often tend to ditch countries from the 'user' lists if the countries in question no longer use them (some also create a 'Past Users' list). The odd West German unit perhaps received them on a trial basis perhaps? I definitely saw an Armbrust on display during an open day with the Bundeswehr panzer gunnery school at Castlemartin circa 1988, alongside Milan, PzF44 and other Bundeswehr weaponry. However, that doesn't prove very much – I've also seen Merlin 81mm mortar bombs and other trialled things in similar British Army displays.

My stack of 1980s-era wargames rules and army lists all mention Armbrust, but then many also list Sgt York, Westland 220 and Canadian M125 mortar carriers – none of which ever made it into service.

…Wiki editors often tend to ditch countries from the 'user' lists if the countries in question no longer use them …

True, although the wording never seems to specifically ever state that it saw service with Germany.

Agreed. The fact that West Germany ended production in 1988 also seems to suggest that it was a project that was binned by the Bundeswehr.

Sorry to ressurect an old thread. Does anyone what a recon unit would be comprised of in this organization (say circa '85-87)?

Found the recon info.

Listed as "Brigade Support". 4 sections each comprised of 2 Luchs.

There were also divisional recce battalions. Do you want the details?

Note that in peacetime, the brigade recce platoons were assigned to the divisional recce battalions, but were detached to the brigades in wartime. Some orbats therefore count them twice!

Here you go:

West German Recce Battalion 1980s (Heerestruktur 4):

Bn HQ: No Info, sorry (probably mounted in Fuchs?).

2x Heavy Panzer Recce Companies, each with a CHQ of 1x Leopard 1 and four platoons, each with 3x Leopard 1.

1x Mixed Panzer Recce Company, with CHQ mounted in 1x Fuchs, two tank platoons, each with 3x Leopard 1 and four SPW platoons, each with 4x Luchs.

1x Panzer Recce Jaeger Company, with a CHQ mounted in 1x Fuchs and 3x Jaeger (light infantry) platoons, each mounted in 3x Fuchs. 1x MILAN per platoon.

I forgot to add the battalion radar platoon, which consisted of 8x Fuchs-PARA ground-surveillance radar vehicles. However, some units persisted well into the mid-80s with the older (Heerestruktur 3) mixed organisation, where the radar equipment was carried by Munga Jeeps and Radarpanzer-Kurz 91-2.

I should have added that this is the wartime organisation. In peacetime you can also add the division's three Brigade Recce Platoons, which would increase the battalion's strength by another 24x Luchs.

Cheers for the great info Mark!

You're welcome.

Corrections to a couple of slight mistakes:

The Brigade Recce Platoon of 8x Luchs was sub-divided into two 'Troops' ('Truppe'), each of 4x Luchs.

Similarly, the Luchs belonging to the Mixed Recce Company were organised into two platoons of 8 and not four platoons of 4 as I stated above.

Note that the previous recce battalion organisation (Heerestruktur 3, which was replaced by Heerestruktur 4 in 1980) was TOTALLY different from top to bottom.

Very interesting. I'm looking at 1980s Bundeswehr TO&E at present. Have you got the organisation of Jaeger companies? I understand that on mobilisation they would have been 4 Jaeger platoons, a HQ platoon and a support platoon, but can't find more details.

There's Jaeger and there's Jaeger and there's Jaeger…

As mentioned above, 'pure' Panzer-Grenadier Battalions had Jaeger Companies. These were organised as described above: three platoons, each with three sections and mounted in three M113s. CHQ with a single M113. No reserve section or support platoon.

There were also 'Heavy' Jaeger Battalions. Each West German division had one and its role was that of mobile infantry reserve and rear-area/convoy escort. 50-series Territorial Brigades also had a single 'Heavy' Jaeger Battalion, in addition to a 'Light' Jaeger Battalion and two panzer battalions. A 'Heavy' Jaeger Battalion had three companies organised as above. Each battalion had three Jaeger Companies and a 120mm Panzer-Mortar Company (as for Panzer-Grenadier Battalions).

Those 'Heavy' Jaeger battalions belonging to 50-series Territorial Brigades also had a Kanonenjagdpanzer Platoon with 6x Kanonenjagdpanzer 4-5 (replaced in some units during the 1980s by M48A2GA2 tanks).

There were also 'standard' Jaeger Battalions. These were organised pretty much the same as 'Heavy' Jaeger Battalions, but they had trucks (mainly Unimogs) in lieu of M113s. The 120mm mortars were towed by trucks and Munga or Iltis jeeps were used as command and OP vehicles. Each division had a single Jaeger Battalion for rear-area security, while each 50-series Territorial Brigade had a single Jaeger Battalion (plus a heavy jaeger battalion and two panzer battalions) and each 60-series Territorial Brigade had two (plus a panzer battalion).

Jaeger Battalions belonging to Territorial Brigades again had Kanonenjagdpanzer Platoons, as for Heavy Jaeger Battalions.

Finally there were Heimatschuetz Jaeger Battalions. There were three such battalions in each Heimatschuetz Regiment and there were 2-3 regiments per Territorialkommando, plus a 50-series Brigade and a 60-series Brigade. Each Heimatschuetz Regiment also had a 120mm mortar company and a Kanonejagdpanzer Platoon (the same as the battalion assets described above).

Each Heimatschuetz Jaeger Battalion had three Jaeger companies described much as you mention – four platoons, with a support platoon that usually contained a pair of FK-20 or FK-20-2 20mm AA guns and a 106mm recoilless rifle or two. It's possible that they also received Milan to replace the RRs.

Thanks. A few more than I thought. I'm interested in detailed company organisation, although the battalion assets are handy to gauge possible support. Did a section in each type of battalion have 11 men with Pzf44, 40mm GL, CG S550, etc?

I don't know about 40mm GLs, but they all seem to have had PzF44, with CG used as a platoon-level weapon.

It's the HK69:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HK69

Were sections 11 strong in Jaeger companies?

I don't know about Heimatschuetz Jaeger section strength, but sections were certainly 11 strong in the 'Heavy' and motorised Jaeger battalions.

Something I forgot to add was that Heimatschuetz Jaegers were not fully-motorised, though I expect that they could have supplemented their MT with locally-commandeered civilian MT.

Thanks alot. Useful stff.