""Realistic" spaceship design and combat systems" Topic

I've recently been enjoying reading the "Atomic Rocket" we page

projectrho.com/rocket

and would value information on the currently available ship design and combat systems that most respect the laws of physics. This is not a criticism of designs that give a good fun game in many of the sci-fi traditions, but I am wondering if anything out there aims for crunchy-hard science realism from the ground up -- not just for combat, but also with a reasonably ground-up design system.

if i start thinking in terms of realism i quickly begin to question whether there'd be any spaceship combat at all.

Attack Vector: Tactical will fit the bill here…

Attack Vector: Tactical

I couldn't find mention of a design system. Does it include one?

Doesn't Ad Astra consider Saganami Simulator as rigorous as AV:T but better written, easier to play?

I've played in a simple demo, even took first blood, but never felt I was getting more realism even with three dimensions. Others love it.

BattleFleet Mars had a good 3-d system, but everyone hated. I was okay with it.

I've been trying to track down more info about the OOP High Frontier, which I don't know has combat, but appears to have an intriguing orbital mechanic.

Doug

Look into the mirror and say "Ken Burnside" three times and he'll give you a good summary of the system and available mechanics. It's uncanny…

Saganami simulates battles in the Honor Harrington universe… including the "interesting" physics.

AV:T is the bees knees for hard SF space combat simulation.

And High Frontier is a fascinating boardgame on developing spaceships & getting them to various points in the solar system, from Sierra Madre Games.

Hoser

Squadron Strike and Attack Vector by Ad Astra games are the ticket.

I find GZG's Full Thrust with the semi-Newtonian movement system (and using only basic weapons) realistic enough. I really don't need the 3D headache.

Rob

"I couldn't find mention of a design system. Does it include one?"

Attack Vector has a design system but it is not one that mere mortals can understand. From what Ken describes, it is an inch away from blowing up Excel so Ken has to bring his computer flowers and chocolates every time he designs a ship.

I curse you Lentulus. I hopped over to the Atomic Rocket site just for a second to see what it was all about, and I was there (and at other links it provided) for 4 hours. So far. But at least I'm feeling much more well informed.

The AV:T design spreadsheet is not public.

The Squadron Strike design spreadsheet is, and you can choose options that make the game fairly AV:T-like.
-Kle.

I curse you Lentulus. I hopped over to the Atomic Rocket site just for a second to see what it was all about, and I was there (and at other links it provided) for 4 hours. So far. But at least I'm feeling much more well informed.

Winchell Chung is The Man.

What was the name of the Overly Complex game with the Penis Ships?

Saganaki something…

Fighters in a 2d with newtonion move was hard Vacuum . Pulp weird war II with a design system , plays on hex grid . No mini;s or board but cool rules

I have been working towards a rules system like that for years but have given up. Real space combat sucks IMO. I have changed to making it a set of rules to play the really cool battles in BSG B5 and star wars. Its so much more fun IMO.

I've talked a little with Ken Burnside about getting access to the AV:T design system. You need to know calculus. seriously. Don't go there unless you are either an engineer or a math genius.

Squadron Strike is what you want. It has Excel spreadsheets to handle the design side of the house, and you can run it in full 3d following all of Newton's Laws…

You can make DP9's Lightning Strike system work, as well, but it is a little less maneuver-dependent. I have both, but the DP9 design system makes Excel whimper in the corner… means you need to do the design *by hand*, but all you need is a calculator that can do cube roots.

I created a somewhat realistic hex-based game back in the '90s, when I first started dabbling in game design. I wouldn't call it realistic in the same sense that the Atomic Rocket site is going for, but I did try to base it on real or theoretical spacecraft designs. All near future, interplanetary craft (including solar sails!), with gravitational effects of planetary bodies, vector movement, limitations on fuel usage, variable engine efficiencies, the effects of ship mass (and fuel mass) upon acceleration, and a ship design system that took into account the mass of armaments. A lot was abstracted to make for a playable game, and I fudged in more than a few places to make it a fun game rather than an exercise in physics, but I was pleased with the result. May have to dust it off again for a PDF release.

(No 3D, though. I dropped that as both extremely difficult and not all that fun or significant in terms of actual play.)

Lightning Strike has a design system?

I have 2nd ed – is it in 1st ed?

Have always liked Lightning strike but found it too tied to its IP…

Mr Elmo, you're thinking of the Saganami Island Tactical simulator, based on the Honor Harrington novels by David Weber. As for penis-shaped, well they're not, really. At least, mine isn't that shape …

Attack Vector came first, and handles 3D movement, with proper modelling of Newton's laws and tracking of fuel (including modelling the increase in acceleration as a ship gets lighter by using up its reaction mass). It has its own setting, and the ship and weapon designs are tied to that setting. Squadron Strike is more generic, and has several levels of "realism"; ships can zip about like waterboatmen on a pond, changing direction and speed willy-nilly; they can move like 'powerboats in space', with speed but not direction conserved, or you can have proper Newtonian movement as per Attack Vector, alhtough without the fuel or heat tracking. It has its own background, but the rules are much more generic and you can use them for anything you like.

I remember playing some at an GAMA a few years ago. Two hours per turn for a 6 player game.

I am not sure I need THAT much realism…

Lion in the Stars: How much calculus do you need? Many of us are quite adept at mathematics.

@wellspring: I don't enjoy that much math during the design step, so I haven't pursued that. If you really want to, go ahead and ask AdAstra, but he told me that he would not be willing to give design review assistance and you would need to sign a NDA over the design system.

I strongly recommend sticking with Squadron Strike, or Jovian Chronicles/Lightning Strike.

@evilleMonkeigh: I think you may actually need Jovian Chronicles for the design system (I have 1st ed JC, not lightning strike), and the JC=>LS conversions should be in the first edition of Lightning Strike.

Lentulus:

and would value information on the currently available ship design and combat systems that most respect the laws of physics.

The only current designs are ASATs and the only manned space combat system was a Salyut with an anti-aircraft cannon (which they even fired). Ohhh, you meant rules. Right.

Parzival:

(No 3D, though. I dropped that as both extremely difficult and not all that fun or significant in terms of actual play.

Shhhh Ken Burnside might hear you.

I've found that 3d does have a serious learning curve attached to it, but it makes for an intense tactical challenge. Whether the headaches attached to learning to think in 3d is worth it to you is a personal decision.

I can teach Attack Vector to the average 10-12 year old in something just under 15-20 minutes.

This includes 3D; I used to try to teach them the 2D version, but they insisted on reading the 3D rules and learning them.

I also used to only teach them lasers, but the little brats would go off and read the coilgun/missile rules and then come back about half and hour later and then blow me up.

I hate kids.

Yeah, it's us old timers that get headaches from trying to think in 3d…

Gotta get the gaming group interested in pushing starships again.

I would love to use 3D except no-one's interested in gaming it… sigh.