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"Wellington and the British Army: a question of morale" Topic


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basileus6631 Jan 2011 12:29 p.m. PST

Wellington is regarded as one of the greatest generals of the Napoleonic Wars, and reservedly so. Besides him, not other general of the era has the same spotless record of victories.

However, was his command as decissive as it appears at first glance? Or were the British soldiers who actually deserves the merit? Even under less accomplished commanders than Wellington, the British army was able to best the French again and again. The only defeats that the British forces suffered in the whole Napoleonic period (not counting the Revolutionary Wars) was against the Spanish in Argentina (in 1806 and 1807) and against the Americans in the war of 1812. In Europe they defeated the French again and again, even if sometimes the battles were close run things (Talavera, La Albuera and Fuentes de Oñoro, specially).

(The affair at Fuengirola, in 1810, was one of the very few defeats of the British forces in Spain. And probably is also one of the most stunning feats of arms of all the Napoleonic wars: a single detachment of 150 Polish put in flight a British regiment, a Spanish one and captured a battery and the CiC of the force!)

In Spain, the mere presence

I don't diminish the merits of Wellington, mind you (nor those of the allied armies under his command, later in the wars, or even those of his opponents), but when all is said and done looks like that the real heroes of the story were the British soldiers. Wellington was very fortunate to have under his command such a soldiers.

This is something surprising. Why the British soldiers fought so hard? They were defending a society of privileged that looked at them as worthless ruffians (starting with Wellington himself). They hadn't the same prospects of gaining benefits from their service as a if they would have served in the Navy (lousy as they were). Many of them came from Ireland and Scotland, and had no love for the English King. And still…

What was what made them suxh excellent soldiers? Their esprit de corps? Their NCOs? A mix of xenophobia, pride on themselves and faith in their commanders?

Best regards

NoLongerAMember31 Jan 2011 12:45 p.m. PST

British Soldiers had to be well led, and have a commander they trusted, then they performed. Wellington was definately in the top tiers from the wars, mediocre generals didn't beat Massena even if he wasn't at his best in the Penninsula, and Wellington beat him Strategically and Tactically

As to why they were so solid, they were insular, bloody minded, well trained (for the period) and confident in their own abilities. Very similar to the Grande Armee before Eylau filleted them.

In your list of British cockups you forgot the Walcheron expedition.

dampfpanzerwagon Fezian31 Jan 2011 1:35 p.m. PST

I would agree wholeheartedly with FreddBloggs. In addition it was Wellington's commitment to detail (sometimes over-the-top) that restructured a great deal of the British Army.

Tony
dampfpanzerwagon.blogspot.com

basileus6631 Jan 2011 1:38 p.m. PST

"In your list of British cockups you forgot the Walcheron expedition."

I didn't include Walcheren, because that was a strategical mistake made by London government, rather than Army's fault.

M C MonkeyDew31 Jan 2011 1:40 p.m. PST

Indeed. Commitment to details like supply and choosing when and where to fight. Sure the British (and allied) soldiers won at Albuera,however under the Duke the butcher's bill would surely have been less.

Consider also the "near run thing" that was Waterloo. Prussians not withstanding would another British leader been able to hold of the French long enough for the Prussians to arrive?

Lord Hill31 Jan 2011 1:47 p.m. PST

"reservedly so"?

basileus6631 Jan 2011 1:56 p.m. PST

Lord Hill

Ooops! I wanted to say "deservedly"! Damm!

Lord Hill31 Jan 2011 2:14 p.m. PST

well I like it :)

bgbboogie31 Jan 2011 2:26 p.m. PST

British stuborness has a lot to do with it….

NoLongerAMember31 Jan 2011 2:30 p.m. PST

Once they had landed at Walcheren, the army hardly covered themselves in glory, mostly as a result of weak leadership, which is what we are talking about here.

Had Wellington not been in charge, they would not have stood at the Ridge of Mont St Jean. It takes a very fine commander to understand a positions weakness's as well as its strengths, probably only him or Marlborough would have even risked it.

21eRegt31 Jan 2011 2:43 p.m. PST

In an era where confidence in leadership had a lot to do with results (Napoleon is worth 10,000 men) the already strong British soldier as already noted was bolstered. If you believe that your generals are going to take you to victory no matter what, it makes it a lot easier to stand and fight to the best of your ability.

As an aside Wellington had a fine rapier to wield, full of fire and well trained. What would have been interesting is how he would have done with an army of less ability.

Add to the list of British failures the siege of Tarragona in 1813 where Murray panicked and abandoned his train and Bergan-Op-Zoom where an overly complicated and ill-coordinated assault failed against depot troops. I've seen the flag of the British Guards at the Musee d'Armee as a result.

ancientsgamer31 Jan 2011 2:59 p.m. PST

Seems to me that Wellington avoided battles he couldn't win as well. So you can say that makes him a brilliant general as well. Even with the mistakes made at Waterloo by the French, Wellington admitted it was a "near run thing". Without the arrival of Blucher, he would have lost. At the height of Napoleon's prowess, I do believe that Wellington would have come up on the short end of an engagement with him. Napoleon was not the same man after Russia and some might say not the same man just prior to Russia either. Wellington certainly knew what he was doing and had the good sense not to fight when at a disadvantage, but the truly great generals as the ones that win when at such disadvantages. Napoleon did this time and time again.

M C MonkeyDew31 Jan 2011 3:17 p.m. PST

The British were also badly handled by the natives in Egypt. Small affair but the commander was killed.

I am put in mind of an earlier war. When Morgan was chided for leaving his flanks exposed at Cowpens, he replied that there was no risk because the British *always* made frontal assaults, as indeed Tarleton had.

A good army led by even a brave general with no tactical finesse is always at risk.

Knowing when to fight and when to maneuver was one of Welly's!EDIT strong suits,

Edwulf31 Jan 2011 3:26 p.m. PST

After landing at Flushing they won their only land battle, "Flushing 1809" The armies failure there was more related to the diseases kicking about.

The British could lose to the French, Fuengirola and Bergan op Zoom spring to mind. However I will say their combat record post 1805 does suggest a change in morale compared to the preceeding years.

basileus6631 Jan 2011 3:45 p.m. PST

"Wellington certainly knew what he was doing and had the good sense not to fight when at a disadvantage, but the truly great generals as the ones that win when at such disadvantages. Napoleon did this time and time again."

I am not so sure about this statement. In my opinion, a truly great general is the one that plans and maneuvers in such a way that he put his army in the best possible position, gaining every single advantage he can before even battle is joined. And in that, Wellington was a master. Also he had the most cherished virtue of any general: luck.

I am here with Sun Tzu. To me a brilliant general is the one that has his enemies defeated even before the first shot is fired. And the truly brilliant is the one who defeats his enemies without firing any shot!

I think that sometimes we are too unfair with Wellington -perhaps as a reaction to his earlier glorification-. He was constrained by problems that Napoleon hadn't. He was answereable to a government, while Napoleon was not. He hadn't available the same man pool than Napoleon had to replace soldiers lost. Finally, he knew he needed to preserve as much as he could his most valuable asset: British soldiers. However, when the ocassion called for it, he wasn't afraid of taking risks (at Salamanca, for example).

That Wellington made errors of judgement is a fact (siege of Burgos, or his tardy reaction before Quatre Bras), but he was a fast learner that didn't make the same mistake twice.

Best regards

wishfulgamer31 Jan 2011 4:22 p.m. PST

There's a quote attributed to Wellington that is one of my favourites.

"Had I had the army that broke up at Bordeaux, I should have swept him off the face of the earth in two hours."

On the question posed by the OP, I think that the common British soldier was very lucky to have had Wellington.

I think that most recruits from any nation could have become highly regarded veterans (for example the Portuguese in the peninsular army) but you have to keep them alive long enough for it to happen. Wellington, imo, was just better at this than anyone else.

Defiant31 Jan 2011 5:24 p.m. PST

Wellington was a calculated risk taker, Napoleon was a bold risk taker.

Every decision general make (leaders) in war are decisions that send men to their doom and or victory. It is also relevant that generals stake their careers on the decisions they make, and Wellington was no exception. When you are commanding Britain's only proper field army you better not screw it up, Wellington knew this and would not offer battle unless the probability of victory was squarely in his favour and if caught he generally withdrew to safer ground. This is a trait that many other generals failed to understand and take advantage of.

That is how I see him anyway.

Sparker31 Jan 2011 6:22 p.m. PST

Yes, no-one stands in greater admiration of the British soldier through the ages than I, yet it does have to be said that Portuguese soldiers serving under Wellington became, in his words, 'the fighting cocks of the army'. Similarly he achieved great things in India with Sepoys.

Therefore I would suggest that his achievements could have been made with any army, provided he was given sufficient time to organise it to his liking, within the political constraints he was under, as alluded to above, which inchlede the inability to sack , or promote out of harm's way, subodinate generals that were stark raving mad…

Personal logo enfant perdus Supporting Member of TMP31 Jan 2011 10:26 p.m. PST

Wellington was a calculated risk taker, Napoleon was a bold risk taker.

In addition to being a subject of his King and subordinate to Parliament, one must remember that for the bulk of the period Wellington was junior to a number of other generals. Accountability has a remarkable way of focusing talent. He also could not rely on a steady stream of conscripts to replenish his ranks.

Supercilius Maximus31 Jan 2011 11:28 p.m. PST

I believe Dr Johnson made some remark about the impudence of the British public in peacetime (often decried by those wanting a more orderly society) equating to stubborness in war. In "Warfare in the Age of Reason" Duffy remarks on how the British had a "cold" patriotism" rather like the Russians, which made them contemptuous of foreigners and reluctant to acknowledge defeat.

Alexey Tartyshev01 Feb 2011 12:57 a.m. PST

I am sorry to crash on your party here but for objectivity purposes I think there a few points to consider regarding the above statement of people being "unfair to Wellington" and etc.

It is hard to see how public opinion can possibly be "unfair to Wellington" considering the that due to banal national pride facto writers such as Oman, Philip Haythornthwaite, Parkinson, Roberts, Wellington himself (his dispatches) etc dominate the current public opinion in English speaking countries , especially amongst people with casual interest in Nwars and casual reading background on the subject. This surely makes a perfect sense on a national-identity level:

"Renewed militarism, a devotion to royalty, an identification and worship of national heroes, together with a contemporary cult of the personality, and racial ideas associated with Social Darwinism. Together these constituted a new type of patriotism, which derived a special significance from Britain's unique imperial mission."(Propaganda and Empire: The Manipulation of British Public Opinion 1880-1960, by John M. MacKenzie)

Wellington was a perfect candidate for a "national hero" so he, being the most powerful men in Britain made himself one and became one. No doubt he was a fine general but "we are too unfair with Wellington" ? you gonna be joking.

"Waterloo-mania" swept Britain with noisy re-enactments of this great British victory. A combination of politics and pride refused to allow that Napoleon's destruction was due to anything other than British pluck and dash and the genius of Wellington. It is a tale of arrogance and conceit that denigrated Prussia and enormously elevated the reputation of Wellington. The present state of affairs is not better, welcome to the dodgy world of hype, in which the Duke is pumped up like mammoth beach ball…."
link

David Chandler writes "No battle has received more attention from soldiers and historians, or evoked greater popular interest and recognition, than Waterloo." This is probably correct, but let's don't forget that approx. 90 % of these books and articles were written in English-speaking countries.

The prolific Waterloo-industry flooded the book market and internet with books, articles, illustrations, and websites. Some of authors describe Waterloo in bombastic words such as "the most important battle in history", "an epoch-making incident, a directional laser-beam of light from the past to the future" (Andrew Roberts – "Waterloo" 2005) or "that world-earthquake, Waterloo" (- Lord Byron). Is it really accurate to refer to Waterloo as "directional laser-beam of light.

Majority of the Waterloo-books were written for particular market and are likely to continue to do well in that very specific market with myths and tall tales " [the Waterloo industry] link

"The Duke of Wellington lived for almost four decades after Waterloo and was in a position to make his own view on the battle almost canonical in Britain…by the time he died he was a national icon." (Leiven).
______________________________________

"Wellington was constrained by problems that Napoleon hadn't."

The whole attempt to compare Napoleon with Wellington makes me smile. Napoleon is a legend in World terms, Wellington is a self-made and homemade hero promoted by the spread of the British Empire and its culture. It's like comparing latest stylish Ferrari to the latest solid built Toyota. Toyota is a fine car and a pride of Japanese car manufacturing but comparison is really inappropriate, but of course very flattering to Wellington fans.

The so called constraints which put Wellington in "disadvantaged" to Napoleon are worth mentioning anyway. Fighting Grand army in Europe with Napoleon in charge and fighting French in Peninsular campaign – these are two different wars:


1. French supply problems.
Napoleon diverted minimal resources to Spain failing to realise the scale of Spanish resistance. This resulted in totally insufficient flow of money, transport wagons, food, ammo, arms. French Marshall Maourmont writes:

"His Majesty may judge from this fact the comparison between their means and our's -we have not 4 day's food in any of our magazines, we have no transport, we cannot draw requisitions from the most wretched village without sending thither a foraging party of 200 strong; to live from day to day, we have to scatter detachments to vast distances, and always to be on the move … Lord Wellington is quite aware that I have no magazines, and is acquinted with the immensely difficult character of the country, and its complete lack of food resources … He knows that my army is not in a position to cross the Coa, even if nobody opposes me, and that if we did so we should have to turn back at the end of 4 days, unable to carry on the campaign …"

On the other hand British military budget was translated in a has an adequate supply of money and transport. "7,000 to 8,000 pack mules bring up its daily food"
Other equipment was also at constant shortages. Chronic shortage of horses This was especially damaging for the cavalry and artillery.

"Many of the regiments in Spain lacked uniforms, horses and equipment. For example in Spain they were dressed in the brown cloth of the Capucines found in convents and churches. They also had difficulty in obtaining eppaulettes for their elite companies and chin straps. For lack of sufficient number of regulation sabres the old Toledo-swords with three edges were used"

2. Spanish partisans and supplies.
"In the mountainous Spain, the French transport wagons could only be dragged with difficulty and toil, by hill and hollow, over roots, rocks and stumps. Nature had formed the country for a war of ambuscades and surprises, and no pains were spared to guard against them".
"French troops to simply protect messengers, escort supply trains, and hold the territory. These wild warriors held down 250,000 of Napoleon's troops. Especially busy were the French dragoons. But their mission was a mission impossible; the roads were poor, the terrain was difficult, the populace was hostile and the guerillas were elusive"

"The countermeasures employed by the French give some idea of how effective the guerrillas were: eventually 200 cavalry would accompany a messenger to ensure safe
passage, and as many as 1,000 men would escort a French general wishing to travel independently of his army. By the summer of 1813 dispatches sent by King Joseph to
Paris had to be escorted by 1,500 men to guarantee safe passage to the French border. (Napooleon wars Oxcley page 223)."

Even when managed to assemble some supplies with the greatest difficulties a high portion was destroyed by Guerrillas. This was especially painful for artillery ammo supplies which could not be obtained "off the land". As a result French artillery was frequently outgunned even by lower number of British guns as there was a constant shortage of artillery ammo. Thanks to the Spanish partisans Wellington had this important tactical advantage without moving his finger while obviously Wellington's force did not have to worry about fighting partisans.

3. Communications and Intelligence.
"The French had great difficulties with communicating with each other, it resulted slower concentration of troops. Napier writes: "..the French could never communicate with each other nor combine their movements, except by the slow method of sending officers with strong escorts; whereas, their adversaries could correspond by post, and even by telegraph an advantage equal to a reinforcement of 30,000 men." (- Napier p 129)"

Starting from 1810 French resorted to assigning as many as 200 cavalryman stretching poorly equipped French dragoon regiments to their limits to accompany the one courier. Obviously this was not always possible and frequently the couriers even of a General rank disappeared with no trace failing to deliver critical information.

John Tone, whose study of the guerillas of Navarre is by far the most detailed work that the English language boasts on the subject, writes: "Armed peasants made chaos of French communications and performed other tasks of value to both English and Spanish regular forces. Partisans scoured the countryside of French spies and symphatizers and brought a continuous stream of information to the Allies.

As a result, clear vision of operations by all filed commanders, skilled supply organisation, wide scouting / reconnaissance, skilled enemy disinformation and perfect flow of information from staff to troops was impossible for the French in Spain thanks to Spanish guerrillas. It is perfectly clear what French General Foy meant by "only the slowness of Wellington saved French from the destruction".


4. Quality of French troops in Spain.
"The first French army to march into Spain in 1808, for example, was predominantly composed of inexperienced conscripts." Baron de Marbot writes: "But it was easy to perceive how astonished they were at the sight of our young infantry soldiers. The moral effect was wholly to our disadvantage, and as I compared the broad chests and powerful limbs of the Spaniards who surrounded us with those of our weak and weedy privates, my national pride was humbled. Though I did not foresee the disasters which would arise from the poor opinion of our troops on the part of the Spaniards, I was sorry that the Emperor had not sent into the Peninsula some veteran regiments from the Army of Germany."

"Bessiers' corps contained just 2,000 reasonably seasoned soldiers, whilst the cavalry was particularly weak, out of 12 troopers, a mere 1,250 had had any real previous experience. Junot's "Army of Portugal" was little better either, only half approached veteran status. Bloodbaths like Eylau, wiped out much of the cream of the French army and by the time the Peninsular War was in full swing many of the troops that had won Austerlitz and Jena were dead."

Students of Napoleon's central European campaigns will be struck by the relatively small numbers of cannon employed in Spain. This is largely explained by the terrain and a chronic shortage of horses. The atrocious roads and mountainous topography of Spain and Portugal, were unsuited for larger number of guns.

The terrain greatly deterred the French from employing heavy cavalry. Consequently, apart from a tiny handful of provisional cuirassiers, the heaviest mounted troops consistently used were compromised quality dragoons.

"For the decisive years 1808 to 1812, French annual conscript calls ranged from 181,000 to 217,000. During 1810 and 1811, when France was at peace in the rest of Europe, the majority of these conscripts went to the Peninsula and substantially diluted the quality of the French forces serving there.

Simultaneously, troop quality declined further as veterans suffered some of the nearly 100,000 casualties sustained in the Peninsula in 1810-1811. The impact of this dilution is clearly stated by General Anne Savary. Savary's report on the 1809 Battle of Essling, where he fought with troops substantially better than the average Peninsula soldier, observes, "if instead of troops consisting of war levies [raw conscripts], we had opposed to them such soldiers as those of the camp of Boulogne [the Grande Armйe], which we might easily have moved in any direction and made to deploy under the enemy's fire without any danger their being thrown into disorder". Innumerable Peninsular battlefields demonstrated this need….

The problem worsened as the Peninsula became a secondary front. A typical Peninsula regiment of 2,500 men would send 120 to 200 men back to France as a depot unit, 50 to the artillery, 10 to the gendarmes, and 12 of the best men to the Imperial Guard. These subtractions, coupled with the unprecedented guerilla-inflicted losses experienced in the never secure rear areas, seriously eroded the staying power of the infantry regiment. It got worse in 1811 and thereafter when Napoleon withdrew the best troops from the Peninsula to prepare for the Russian invasion." (James Arnold – "A Reappraisal of Column Versus Line in the Peninsular War")"

"Facing in Spain by seemingly endless struggles that entailed a great deal of danger but precious little glory, the once loyal soldiers of the emperor grew cynical and resentful, with the result that their willingness to sacrifice their lives fell off dramatically. Still worse, perhaps, frightened, harassed and frustrated, the troops became increasingly undisciplined and engaged in acts of revenge or casual brutality. The guerillas also effected a kind of psychological warfare in which the French had to be constantly on the alert, while the Allied armies could rest securely in the midst of a vigilant peasantry. The guerilla war was a long and demoralizing nightmare for France."

The crème of French army like Guard and Cuirassiers spent is Spain about 8 weeks only. Whatever Wellington faced in Spain were a second tier worst quality French troops. Artillery pieces deployed in Spain were also aging Grobevile system pieces with all new guns being deployed in the main Theatre. Finally the precious howitzers were priority for the Grande army, accordingly French Spanish army hardly ever had a sufficient number of howitzers to negate Wellington's tactic's of hiding his units behind ridge. Needless to say that somewhere in the plains of Europe British army spoiled by greenhouse like conditions of Peninsular War did not stand a chance against a Grandee army with its best troops and concentrated aggressive artillery fire tactics and personally commanded by Napoleon.


5. Napoleon's absence
I guess not much to be said here. Presence of this man meant the difference between a crushing defeat or total victory. This man transformed the warfare and the whole period in history was named after him. Wherever he appeared his charisma and military genius made French army to perform heroically in mass often defeating their enemy despite being outnumbered. However, whenever he was absent the magic spells were absent too leaving the way to Marshalls' / General's indecision and slackness.

"It was no use for the French soldiers to shout "Vive le Emperor" at the battle of Bar-sur-Aube to cheat the Russians. From the start of the battle and by French manoeuvres it was clear that Napoleon was not present" (Ahnri Usse).

He briefly visited Spain only once and the immediate result for the British army was:
"The people of Portsmouth looked on in horror at the spectacle that was emerging from the harbour. The British expeditionary force had returned home, but there was no grand parade through the streets, no pomp or colour, no tale of victory. What appeared seemed rather to be the mere wreckage of an army." (Esdaile – "The Peninsular War" p 140)


6. French Unity of Command and Quality of French Commanders in Spain.

"Whenever Napoleon was absent there was a disaster" (Rothernberg).

Glory grabbing and basic feeling of envy was a common attribute among French marshals and generals. Occasionally, of course provided Napoleon was not around they were "fighting" against each other rather than against the enemy. Majority of them were young energetic men who had an extremely successful career and most of them were extremely selfish and self-confident men considering themselves the centre of Universe. Not surprisingly in the atmosphere of constant wars and living in empire ruled by an Emperor being ex-artillery officer each of them had to fight for his prestige preferably overshadowing others.

In Spain where Napoleon was absent, there were almost always two, three or more marshals around and each of them was convinced that he was the second in charge man after Napoleon and accordingly none of them wanted to take orders from each other even if there was a direct order from Napoleon. Not surprisingly this led to a very grim outcome in Spain. None of the marshals obeyed orders from king Joseph who was their formal commander. Each of them operated in their region and ignored the interest of his neighbours who were obviously paying back with the same attitude. As a result there were numerous lost opportunity to defeat the British decisively.

In January 1811 Soult offered very little assistance to Massena undermining his opportunity of victory in Spain. Augerau being the commander in Catalonia pulled time to help Souchet, Bessier being the Commander of the Northern army came with a handful of troops to assist Massena in a major battle of Fuentes de Oñoro against Wellington and than refused even to commit them in a decisive moment. As a result Wellington being in a desperate situation due to strategic error retreated almost unharmed.

The "cold war" led by French marshals against each other was not a secret for the French army. After the battle of Talavera, on of the French officers wrote: "it is highly suspicious that Jourdan intentionally delayed his march to assist Soult to deny him from getting to much glory…. As far as I am concerned whenever the Emperor is absent there is a chaos and confusion in a senior command and if the Emperor will not do something about his marshals this will not end happily"
____________________________

"Enjoying many advantages over the French, Wellington achieved a record of victory perhaps unmatched in the history of the British army……By these battles he [Wellington] inflicted a total loss of some 45,000 men only – counting killed, wounded and prisoners – on the French during the 5 years' campaign… According to British authors, it was Wellington's army, and not the Spaniards, was the primary cause of victory in Spain." (Hart – "Strategy" 1991, pp 110-111)

Could the Spaniards harm the French in a same way without British money and Wellington's British-Portuguese army ? To high degree probably yes. One has only to look at the example of Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan to realize that armies – with facilities and innovations beyond anything that Napoleon could ever have dreamt of – were strained by the type of warfare that he encountered in the Peninsula.


The tactical and strategic challenges Wellington faced are absolutely nothing to challenges faced by Napoleon through his career. Or for that matter challenges faced by Russian, Prussian, Austrian generals in 1797-1813.

As already noted Wellington had a luxury, unlike French Marshalls, to fight whenever he wanted and whenever he had a clear tactical numerical advantage.

In the major battles in Spain Wellington outnumbered the French:
- at Talavera Wellington had 55.000 vs 46.000 French.
- at Salamanca Wellington had 52.000 vs 49.500 French.
- at Vittoria "Wellington's 105,000 British, Portuguese and Spanish troops, with 96 guns, defeated 60,000 French with 138 guns

But yet every time he failed to fully utilise his advantage and every time French army was able to recover. Wellington had his chance for decisive victory in Campaign in 1813 and 1814 but unfortunately for the Coalition to no avail.

No doubt he was a able strategist and tactician but he stands nothing near Napoleon as strategic challenges Wellingotn faced were nothing near what Napoleon, Davout, Benningsen, Kutuzov, Barclay, Charles experienced in their military careers. Wellington's Peninsilar war is a mere child's play beside epic clashes and strategic dilemmas of Polish 1807, Austrian 1809, Russian 1812 and German 1813 campaigns.

Fighting Grande Army with Napoleon in charge is a different affair to fighting an isolated, undersupplied, lacking intelligence, demoralised and exhausted by Spanish guerrillas French corps without centralised command, while themselves being in Greenhouse like conditions supported by guerrillas, provided by intelligence and excellent supply system. These are two different wars.
______________________________________


It was only once when Wellington was put to the real test in 1815.

Wellington was 'running scared' of Napoleon, and that's why may not wanted to face him alone and without Blucher at Waterloo. In that battle he ran about like a wet hen from battalion to battalion praying for the Prussians to come as early as possible. "I observed that in talking about Waterloo he invariably mentioned it with some expression of horror … holding up his arms above his head and shaking his hands. "- Thomas Sydenham

"Wellington was extremely unwilling to stand on his own against Napoleon. One could almost venture to say that the Duke was running scared of Napoleon – - and thats why he not wanted to face him alone at Waterloo".

"The psychological factor was that Wellington and Blucher were only mediocre strategists. Wellington was skilful in tactical defence but not much good at manoeuvres – slow to get going, prudent, over-cautious, egotistical; Blucher, the fiery hussar with "Forward !" on his lips, was a firm believer in attacking with the utmost force … " (- Lachouque, p 59)

At the start of the 1815 camping Wellington showed incompetency which is natural when facing Napoleon. Wellington dismissed Napoleon's ability to attack at Charleroi as – "We are too strong to be attacked here." The next day Napoleon stormed Charleroi with his classic manoeuvre of trying to separate two allied armies.

They [Allies] had been put in possession of the fact that considerable masses of French troops had moved by their right, and assembled in front of Charleroi. Still, this baring of the frontier beyond Tournai , Mons , and Binche , of the troops which had previously occupied that line , and t h e i r concentration in front of Charleroi , might be designed to mask the real line of operation, to draw the Anglo-Allied troops towards Charleroi , upon which a feigned attack would be made , while the real attack was intended to be by Mons. Hence no alteration was made by the
Duke in the disposition of his forces; but [Blucher] immediately ordered the concentration of his own troops at a point where they would be at hand in case Charleroi should be the real line of attack … " (Siborne – "The Waterloo Campaign, 1815")

In other words Wellington was totally out of touch of reality having significant numbers of troops on his right flank and not expecting the attack at Charleroi. This behaviour reminds Austrian General Mack was in 1805 was similarly out of reality expecting Napoleon to appear from the West and having the bulk of his forces at Ulm where Napoleon did not plan to strike. Unfortunately for General Mack he had not 100,000 Prussian army to help him.

On top of that due general slowness usual for the British army and poor staff organisation which was a direct Wellington's fault Wellington failed to concentrate at the start of the Campaign.

Later his forces failed to join Prussians at Ligny Wellingtons' error led to Prussian defeat at Ligny and to the dangerous separation of Allied armies. Blucher and Napoleon had their armies in hand, Wellington didn't. But it was Napoleon and Blucher who bled on that day, not Wellington. Wellington also lied to Blucher to cover his mistake and let down his allies – he promised to provide rapid and substantial aid to Blucher at a crucial point in the battle at Ligny, although he knew he could not do so. Later he claimed that it was "old fool" Blucher who was to be blamed for Ligny defeat.

Furthermore, when realising his mistake at Quatre-Bras he also failed to order his entire army to Quatre Bras on 16 June, although he was later to claim that he did do so. However, the orders issued and received do not correspond with that claim. There was tremendous chaos and traffic jam on the highway north of Quatre Bras where British divisions were trying to approach Prince Orange's position.

Likely for the Allied armies Prince Orange ignored previous incompetent order form Wellington to withdraw from Quatre-Bras. He ignored Wellington's order and held the position thus preserving the chance for Allied armies to unite in the future.

"The Nassau and Netherlands troops had fought a combat with some French the previous evening. They had done so on their own initiative, choosing not to carry out Wellington's orders to move their entire force on Nivelles. Thanks to Constant Rebeque and Bernhard of Saxe-Weimar, the French had just about been thwarted in their attempt to drive the two Allied armies in Belgium apart"

[ amazing to see how prince Orange is portrayed in popular British film:
"In June of 1815 Richard Sharpe is assigned to the Prince of Orange's staff…. Not only must Sharpe deal with incompetent orders from the Prince of Orange, that lead to slaughter…" not surprisingly Prince Orange is blamed with tactical failures at Qautre-Bras while Wellington is credited with saving the strategic situation" ]

"There was chaos at the various choke-points on the line of march.Constant Rebeque found state of confusion on the road to Quatre Bras, as von Alten's (British-German) and Chasse's (Netherland) divisions had arrived at the same time. The noise of battle could be heard by many troops on the road. The road to Nivelles was blocked by the baggage of the British 3rd Division. Nobody seemed to be in charge of traffic control. The chaos was such that much of Wellington's force would not arrive until the late evening, when the battle was over."

This was a direct outcome of British overreliance on supplies – the overall strategic ineffectiveness of the British army in this case transformed into inability to concentrate to defeat outnumbered Ney. The numerous wagons accompanying British divisions delayed them significantly.

When finally Foot guards arrived at Qautre-Bras they were so poorly led into the battle and were deployed at the place where they were immediately attacked and routed by French cavalry. Despite having the numerical advantage at Quatre Bras Wellington suffered heavier casualties and mind you Ney was not Napoleon and not even Davout. Of course Wellington claimed it as a British victory .

"Even thirteen-thumbed Michel Ney , outnumbered and quite possibly under the handicap of a thudding hangover, fought Wellington to a draw there . " (- John Elting )

"Wellington reported Quatre Bras as an English victory, won over superior forces [actually the Duke enjoyed 2 to 1 advantage], and so it has remained in British history. As for the hangover, belgian legend has it that Ney and his staff had billeted themselves on a Belgian dignitary who was famous for his wine cellar, which they thoroughly reconnoitered." (Elting – "Swords Around a Throne" p 732")

"At Quatre Bras Marshal Ney lost 4,140 men. The French captured British color. Ney also successfully stopped any of Wellington's forces going to the aid of Blьcher's Prussians. Wellington losses were approx. 4,800 killed and wounded. The next day Wellington's forces left the battlefield to the French and fell back." ("Victory" huh?)


As for the Waterloo itself – the only reason Wellington decided to give battle is because he knew that Prussians are coming, while Napoleon was let down by Grouchy and was not having the same information Wellington had.

The battle was conducted in a such unfavourable conditions for the French being outnumbered by 1.5 to 1 and being attacked to the rear and flank so it cannot be seriously looked at as a proof of Wellington's victory over Napoleon.

Wellington, in his first battle against the main French army with Napoleon in charge after losses of less than 20% was considering it to be a near run thing. And this all considering:
- Despite that Wellington was outnumbering Napoleon who had to send around 15,000 French to hold Prussians.
- Despite that Wellington had extremely strong defensive position – the ridge and chateau, stone farms on the main axes of French advance.
- Despite that Napoleon could not utilise his artillery effectively due to mud and ridge
- Despite the fact Napoleon had not chance but to attack frontally due to weather and time constraints he could not conduct his classic envelopment manoeuvre.
- Despite the horrendous tactical errors conducted by Ney.

[Compare this to Russian army performance and Borodino or Austrian army at Wagram, where they had to hold positions for 12 hours + under concentrated artillery fire of hundreds of guns, with no place to hide and with no Prussian coming to help them in 5 hours.]

It is possibly more relevant to say that it were Prussians under Blucher and his chief of staff who won Waterloo– it was them who took the initiative, recovered after the defeat, conducted 24 hour forced march, with minor rearguard actions, lost Grouchy and overall performed an astonishing manoeuvre to save Wellington from total destruction.

To cover his fundamental errors in Waterloo campaign Wellington literally rewritten history in his Waterloo dispatches which once investigated appeared to be a mixture of lies and inconsistencies. National pride and political reasons made British government to accept Waterloo dispatches as official version of history

___________________________________________________

British soldiers Wellington commanded were also had their "issues". The strong defensive position and ability to dictate when and where the battle will take place allowed British lines to defeat French columns however as per Napoleon himself «Columns don't break through lines unless with superior artillery."

Unfortunately for the French in Spain they never had sufficient number of Howitzers and they were poor quality as Napoleon left in Spain old- aging pieces. To make things worst French had a constant problem with limited ammo because of the mountain terrains, Spanish guerrillas, and long distances separating French forces from their depots.
Poor quality 2nd tier French troops in Spain contributed to the problem. Finally, Wellington had a luxury to decide where and when the battle would take place and Wellington was not burdened with protecting vital strategic points like Russian army in 1807, 1812, 1813 or Austrian in 1809. He accepted the battle only if he had a tactical advantage. I am afraid on the plains of Wagram or Borodino thin red line would be torn apart by the Grand army columns under Napoleon himself with concentrated artillery and mass charges of heavy cavalry. But as we know British army was no prepared to fight this kind of war – it is far more safer to skirmish with some French in Spain rather than trying to take on Napoleon with his main army. Certainly makes sense. Let others do the job.

On top of that Camping's in Europe were often conducted at extreme speeds and often at extreme weather conditions (1806, 1807, 1812, 1813) . As a result of Napoleonic style maneuverers, logistical support often failed and armies had to operate with being grossly undersupplied.

Both French and Russian armies fought 1807 Winter Campaign, 1812 Summer and Winter Campaigns under extreme weather conditions, with constant forced marches, heavy combat casualties and failed supply systems. There were cases when Russian soldiers were without food for 7 days, had nothing to eat but a piece of a hide, steeped in water that they might be enabled to chew it when softened. But then they remained under arms and then on the field of battle for 18 hours.

Whenever British army faced similar conditions desertion went totally out of control. British soldiers did not want to endure month and month of forced marches with extremely high combat casualties and to be left with no food for days. They had to be kept happy other wise they just turned around and went wherever to look for better life (Corruna retreat and Talavera).

"The British, seem to have been peculiarly inept at surviving without plenty of supplies. Even in times of minor food shortages, indiscipline erupted on a vast scale. The British divisions went to pieces in the lean days after Talavera for example – and as late as the Waterloo campaign of 1815, we find Wellington commenting to his amazed Prussian friends that 'I cannot separate from my tents and supplies. My troops must be well kept and well supplied in camp …" (- Gates).

My point is that British army was not in position to sustain such war as they would be not in position to get to the battlefield in the first place or they would not be able to sustain the constrains of truly Napoleonic Camping.

"These infantry… and their appointment appeared as if they had not moved futher than from barracks to the parade during that time. The horses and men of the cavalry bore the same freshness of appearance. …. If English battalion ad marched a tenth part of the way they would have been crippled for weeks…" (Sir Wilson about Russian reserve battalions in 1813).

Interesting view on the differences in quality of Wellington's troops presents Italian historian Mr. Barbero:

"Nevertheless, there were still some identifiable differences in quality between the armies in the field that had little to do with national character. Such an assertion would have surprised the combatants' contemporaries, who put great faith in cliches about the racial qualities of various peoples; indeed, many generalizations of this kind were considered to have indisputable scientific value.
In fact, however, the compartment of troops on the battlefield at Waterloo was substantially the same whatever their nationality. Even in Wellington's composite, heterogeneous army, the gap between British troops and "foreign" troops – a gap that British officers and soldiers, with their ingrained chauvinism, considered unbridgeable – did not prove signifcant under fire …
So heterogeneous an army certainly had its disadvantages from an organizational point of view, but on a tactical level, contary to what some historians have maintained, the fighting quality of battalions and squadrons in Wellington's army was substantially the same irrespective of their nationality". (Barbero – "The Battle" pp 19-20)

________________________________

What Wellington can be surely credited for:

1. ability to understand of larger geopolitical picture and the role of British army in this big game. That is: let Austrians, Prussians and Russians fight Napoleon and his Grande Armee and British can "win" the war with no fighting at all.

2. ability to understand the strategic picture and the role of British army in Peninsular war. That is: time is his ally. Every single day French occupational army lost their combat worthiness due to partisan warfare. In that sense Wellington was deciding to give battle ONLY if he had a tactical advantage, something that French could not afford.

3. ability to adopt to the Spanish theatre on a tactical level – use of ridges to minimize his casualties something that British army having recruitment practice was very sensitive to. The backside of it was far less decisive battles than on the main theatre in Europe in terms of casualties, morale impact, and camping progress. But this favored more Wellington than the French because of points 1). and 2). above.

Accordingly, Wellington cared more for the safety of his troops rather than damaging the French – which is perfectly understandable considering that his army was recruited and supplied by 18th century standards and was not a match for mobile Grande armee operating in the main theatre.

Wellington's achievement are more than modest considering all the advantages he enjoyed over French, all problems French faced in Spain, Napoleon's and best French troops absence. Despite all that, Wellington's progress was terribly slow and as per French general Foy on a number of occasions "only the slowness of Wellington saved French armies from the destruction".


__________________________
"a truly great general is the one that plans and maneuvers in such a way that he put his army in the best possible position, gaining every single advantage he can before even battle is joined….. To me a brilliant general is the one that has his enemies defeated even before the first shot is fired. And the truly brilliant is the one who defeats his enemies without firing any shot!"
_____________________________-

Interesting to see how the Russian strategy in 1812 is considered to be "luck" and the "the act of God (weather)" while Wellington's retreats in Peninsular (e.g. Torres Vedros) are "brilliantly calculated strategy".

wishfulgamer01 Feb 2011 3:16 a.m. PST

"Bloodbaths like Eylau, wiped out much of the cream of the French army and by the time the Peninsular War was in full swing many of the troops that had won Austerlitz and Jena were dead."

My point, precisely. Wellington was much better at keeping the veterans alive.

Britain had to choose it's fights carefully simply because it did not have the ability to replace manpower losses the way the continental armies did.

I'm neither in the Wellington or Napoleon camp. Both great generals for different reasons. But most of your post does seem to point out staggering strategic errors on the French side, which one would assume Napoleon should be held accountable for as absolute authority, whilst apologising for them.

Whereas I get the feeling you don't feel that the British were 'fighting fair' for doing things like refusing to fight unless they had a good chance at winning and deploying behind ridges to minimise casualties.

And as for Waterloo, the debate will continue ad nauseum as to whether it was a Prussian victory, or a British victory, or if Naploeon lost because he was feeling squiffy or because Ney was being a very naughty boy that day. The fact remains that Napoleon lost. Badly. In the end that one real fact is the clincher. Wellington was a great general, not even Napoleon was able to beat him.

Edwulf01 Feb 2011 4:03 a.m. PST

"Whereas I get the feeling you don't feel that the British were 'fighting fair' for doing things like refusing to fight unless they had a good chance at winning and deploying behind ridges to minimise casualties."

which is odd considering

"a truly great general is the one that plans and maneuvers in such a way that he put his army in the best possible position, gaining every single advantage he can before even battle is joined….. To me a brilliant general is the one that has his enemies defeated even before the first shot is fired. And the truly brilliant is the one who defeats his enemies without firing any shot!"

Whirlwind01 Feb 2011 4:25 a.m. PST

Ah I see.

Wellington didn't neglect his supply lines, obtained tactical superiority despite being strategically outnumbered by large ratios (in the Peninsula), won all his battles, defeated Napoleon at Waterloo, never lost his Army to a combination of battles and climate – but his achievements are more than modest.

I think I must respectfully disagree.

Whirlwind01 Feb 2011 4:29 a.m. PST

One point that I cannot pass up though – the idea that the French forces facing the British in the Peninsula were in any degree second-rate. They were the same troops – under the same commanders – that had fought at Austerlitz, Jena, Eylau and Friedland. Naturally because the British beat them, they must have been 'inferior'. The skill just drained out of them on the long march through France perhaps?

Regards

Whirlwind01 Feb 2011 4:30 a.m. PST

One is always amused by the degree of special pleading that goes on when confronted with the litany of excuses for the French defeats in the Peninsula and at Waterloo.

NoLongerAMember01 Feb 2011 4:34 a.m. PST

When Wellington stood at Waterloo, he was outnumbered, and had no way to know Napolean would delay the start of the battle due to ground conditions etc.

What Wellington did was make the French come for him, pinning them in place for the combined armies to beat them.

The lessons of Ligny and Quatre Bas were learned, don't fight Napoleon alone.

And outnumbered and standing on the defensive the French had their chance to break him before the Prussians arrived and were not able to do so.

The Strategic key was simply he could lose Waterloo, but still win the war as it trapped the French where the Prussian forces could catch them tired and having just fought one major battle.

It is not that great generals fail to make mistakes, the mark of them is that they get away with them and learn.

Last point: In field actions Wellington could only beat what was in front of him, and he did so.

Supercilius Maximus01 Feb 2011 5:19 a.m. PST

<<But yet every time he failed to fully utilise his advantage and every time French army was able to recover. Wellington had his chance for decisive victory in Campaign in 1813 and 1814 but unfortunately for the Coalition to no avail.>>

You fail to mention that some of W's numerical superiority in the battle you list consisted of green troops. You also fail to mention that on at least two occasions, the total destruction of a defeated enemy force was prevented by one of W's subordinates disobeying orders and consequently being in the wrong place instead of blocking their retreat.

Also, what evidence is there that W was "running scared" of Napoleon, other than the self-serving writings of one French author?

<<Whenever British army faced similar conditions desertion went totally out of control. British soldiers did not want to endure month and month of forced marches with extremely high combat casualties and to be left with no food for days. They had to be kept happy other wise they just turned around and went wherever to look for better life (Corruna retreat and Talavera).>>

Some units (mostly those made up of new recruits, or which had not seen action for many years) may have done so, but more did not. The Guards famously marched into Corunna led by their drum major and band. The Light brigades under the likes of Paget – and other decent commanders – maintained their discipline and fought doggedly at Corunna.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx01 Feb 2011 5:22 a.m. PST

Wellington had key advantages – he only emerged from the Lisbon area in 1809 and 1812 when French resources were under strain, his comms and supply lines were secure, the locals were on his side (the opposite for example of NATO supply lines currently running into Afghanistan), his style of command suited his small army. He had been in Belgium in the earlier 1790s without displaying any great skill, but it meant that he did have a decent knowledge of the area in 1815 – unlike N, who had never fought there. Big armies tend to decline in overall quality, because the veteran cadre is spread out (key in a defensive position) and training standards fall and in 1815, his men had really only known victory, when N's vetrans had been on the receiving end for much of the previous three years.

M C MonkeyDew01 Feb 2011 6:05 a.m. PST

The biggest difference between Welly and Napoleon is of course that had Welly become an indifferent general showing little finesse and losing troops in droves he would have been sacked.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx01 Feb 2011 6:24 a.m. PST

But on the other hand, he did not have to worry about the political and economic consequences of his strategy. The politicians in London did not press him to get on the offensive, merely to do what he could to help the overall war objectives – hence his hiding behind the Lines of torres vedras.

basileus6601 Feb 2011 6:45 a.m. PST

"But on the other hand, he did not have to worry about the political and economic consequences of his strategy."

Not exactly. See his correspondence with his elder brother, Richard, Lord Wellesley (ambassador in Spain in 1809). Wellington was so cautious precisely because he was conscious of the political and economical consequences of his decissions. He knew that if he messed things up, the after effects could mean the end of the Continental strategy of Great Britain.

London actually pressed him to take the offensive several times. That he was able to forestall political pressure most of the times was thanks to his prestige and, specially, his brother's political allies.

M C MonkeyDew01 Feb 2011 6:53 a.m. PST

"But on the other hand, he did not have to worry about the political and economic consequences of his strategy."

Lol! Only if he didn't want to keep his job.

Is there any general officer commanding that does not have such concerns?

EDIT: Political repercussions aside, does the burden so imposed reflect upon a general's success or failure in the field? Is this some mitigating factor that absolves Napoleon of his gross failure in 1812?

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx01 Feb 2011 9:20 a.m. PST

Yes, in that N was under severe pressure to win and win big in 1805 and 1812. Likewise, the Austrian finance minister advised that he could only finance the army for about anotherv 6 months, so the Austrians likewise were vunder economic constraints – W wasn't.

Ilya Litsios01 Feb 2011 9:31 a.m. PST

Often the French troops in Peninsular were quite experienced. For example, the French army which fought at Albuera had not received any replacements for over a year. Therefore, more than half of the French prisoners captured there were 26+ years old, while average age of the French soldiers in La Grande Armee in 1805 was around 25 years and more than half of these soldiers have never seen combat before.

4th Cuirassier01 Feb 2011 9:40 a.m. PST

Alexey's post, at 5,800 words, is only about 10% shorter than my dissertation at university.

Just saying like.

M C MonkeyDew01 Feb 2011 10:02 a.m. PST

"…so the Austrians likewise were vunder economic constraints – W wasn't."

Still at a loss here. Are we to penalize Wellington's performance because the British government only fought wars it could afford to?

Generals are faced with the situation they are handed and their performance can only be judged on what they did with what they had to work with.

As for N's pressure to win big in 1812, having created that situation in the first place he should have sacked himself rather than waste so many men :)

blucher01 Feb 2011 11:00 a.m. PST

Could this be morphing into a napoleon vs wellington debate ?!

I know this doesnt help but I have a question.

Wellington was quoted as saying Napoleon was the best general of any age. Can someone confirm this and whether he still held that opinion at the end of his career?

Sparker01 Feb 2011 5:35 p.m. PST

Well I think an armchair general like Alexei calling Wellington's legendary coolness under fire and battlefield leadership 'running about like a wet hen' just about plumbs the very depths of 'tall poppy syndrome'!

(religious bigot)01 Feb 2011 8:41 p.m. PST

I'm not convinced that Napoleon doing dumb things lessens Wellington's ability.

Sparker02 Feb 2011 12:08 a.m. PST

Quite so – wars are won by the side that makes the least mistakes. The key is being in the right place to spot those mistakes, such as Wellington spotting that Marmont was overextending his columns at Salamanca.

Wellingtons being up front like a 'wet hen' was far preferable to Napoleon's later lassitude and tendency to sit back from the action. Sure, his legions of apologists have found all sorts of ailments to explain this, but the fact remains he should have appointed a single commander to stand in his place if indisposed…

Defiant02 Feb 2011 12:27 a.m. PST

Combat, like anything that deals with physics is about action and reaction, move and counter-move in an ever evolving complexity that is bound by time constraints. So for a general in command of an army in battle command is about being proactive or reactive to each others moves. Some might think that an action taken is being proactive in countering a potential enemy action when in fact that might be the exact action the enemy wanted you to make thus making that action, "reactive".

This is where you start to understand that generals don't just think about what it is they are going to do but what it is the enemy is going to do and how to react to these moves. Also, taking proactive action to keep the enemy guessing is the other side where you take force the enemy to abandon his own plans to counter (react to) yours. Every battle in history follows patterns like this and the side that can keep the enemy reacting and unable to set in place their own plans into action will unbalance the enemy and wrong foot them.

Napoleon was a master of this in almost every battle he fought in and was trying to do it at Waterlooo as well. The problem was that Wellington did not play the game by these rules because he was too smart for that kind of combat. No matter what Napoleon tried to do Wellington was ready for and in the end Napoleon was the one forced to react to enemy counter moves that put him off-balance and eventually lose. This is because Wellington and Blucher agreed to meet on the field of battle on the 18th given enough time. Napoleon did not know this and planned his actions with very little knowledge at all.

You could go so far as to say the Napoleon's actions taken at Waterloo although they appear to be proactive were indeed reactive to the plan devised by Wellington and Blucher a day before…All Wellington had to do was hold the French on the field long enough for the Prussians to arrive. Basically, Wellington had to hold the beast by the horns front on while Blucher attacked from the flank. It was a trap and it worked. As much as I am biased to the French, Napoleon was played and was reacting to a plan already set in place.

basileus6602 Feb 2011 3:27 a.m. PST

So, Shane, what you are saying is that Wellington outsmarted Napoleon at Waterloo, didn't he? He read Napoleon better than Napoleon read him. I don't know how do you interpret it, but in my book that's the mark of a great commander. A truly great commander.

PS: By the way, how are things going in Australia? I read in the news that a nasty storm is about to hit you again. I hope everybody is safe.

Defiant02 Feb 2011 3:58 a.m. PST

Hi basil,

Yeah, its just my opinion, based on how I feel about the whole campaign. I think Napoleon got the better on Wellington and Blucher up until the 16th but bad decisions made on the night of the 16th and 17th that were due to poor intelligence coupled with good decisions made by Wellington and Blucher turned it around for them on the 18th…

As for where I live, yup, once more the weather is going crazy down here. A Cyclone comparable to Hurricane Katrina that hit New Orleans several years ago is now hitting Norther Queensland. Luckily for me I live in Southern Queensland but I know many people who live up there. They are currently suffering 300kph winds and a tidal surge of up to 6mtrs…just can't get any worse could it?

basileus6602 Feb 2011 5:19 a.m. PST

"They are currently suffering 300kph winds and a tidal surge of up to 6mtrs…just can't get any worse could it?"

Geez! I can even start imagining what 300 kph winds mean! Here when winds are up to 100 kph the country is put on high alert!

Defiant02 Feb 2011 6:40 a.m. PST

aye, check your news broadcasts over the next 24 hours. They are expecting huge areas of total destruction to occur. 2011 is not starting out so well for my home state at all.

JeffsaysHi02 Feb 2011 6:52 a.m. PST

In short -:
Yes it was Wellington, yes it was Morale.

------------------------------------------------------

But it was not 'British' national characteristic / ethnicity / culture / diet / education / xenophobia / gun powder / or any such.

The Portuguese, Germans, Irish, Scots, Welsh, English, and assorted continentals of Wellingtons Peninsular Army had a high morale because
1. Wellington was usually careful with logistics and an excellent army general
2. They had the most superior low level arrangement for command and control of the basic infantry units of that era, suited to smaller armies.

The Portuguese, Germans, Irish, Italians, French, and assorted continentals of the various French Peninsular Armies did not have such a high morale because
1. Their generals were often careless with logistics and not such excellent army generals.
2. They had a good (but inferior to the Dundas regs) arrangement for low level command and control of the basic infantry units, suited for conscript armies.

--------------------------------------------
The main determinant of combat potential = command control
And with circumstance they generally proved it.
--------------------------------------------

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx02 Feb 2011 10:31 a.m. PST
Lord Hill02 Feb 2011 10:51 a.m. PST

I've always thought that the same streak of national character which we Brits like to (rightly) recoil from with repugnance – gangs of yobbish football holligans smashing everything in sight, drunk, not very bright, and absolutely in love with the idea of fighting – is also what has seen the British army through it's greatest moments of "glory".

The majority of the armies on the Napoleonic battlefields were made up largely of conscripts of some kind or other.
Only the British army consisted of a core who were there "for the crack"!
Look how many veterans, after the end of 20 years of war, greeted "peace at last" by going off to fight yet again, with Bolivar in South America for example, in yet more bloodshed.

From Towton Moor to Mount Tumbledown.

"Come an' 'av a go if y'think yer 'ard enough…"

It should be our national anthem.

Supercilius Maximus02 Feb 2011 11:07 a.m. PST

<<I've always thought that the same streak of national character which we Brits like to (rightly) recoil from with repugnance – gangs of yobbish football holligans smashing everything in sight, drunk, not very bright, and absolutely in love with the idea of fighting – is also what has seen the British army through it's greatest moments of "glory".>>

See my earlier reference to Dr Johnson's 18th Century comment about impudence in peace equating to stubborness in war.

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