"Market for 15 mm RPG minis?" Topic

After reading this forum for a while now, I asked myself the question, how high would be the demand/acceptance, if a company would offer a line of 15 mm dungeoncrawl miniatures?

I checked a lot of manufacturers for the 15/18 mm scale and most of them offer very fine and attractive minis. But what I nearly never saw were "full" product ranges of RPG suitable monsters, characters (especially female one) or villains.

Surely many will remember the old AD&D minis from Citadel, aka GW, especially the 3 stage characters (expl.: one class (example fighter) in 3 different outfits/weaponry to represent the rising of the character from a poor farmboy to a magnificent hero in magic arms and armor). I wonder why nobody does something like that. Not too many companies offer differing adventurers anyways. Most of them lack dynamic poses or simply not every character class is covered (IIRC 15mm co.uk is the only one having a druid in their adventurers pack).

And the same goes for Monsters. While there are tons of orcs, goblins and undead (the usual adversaries in tabletop gaming), the "normal" well-known monsters are nearly non-existent (and again IIRC there is only one manticore mini out there). Where are those Trolls, Ogers, Bugbears, Medusas, Ratman etc?

I understand that the cost for publishing/producing a miniature is pretty high (ca. 20 $ per sculpted mm only for the greens, right?), but isnīt there a market for the 15/18 mm RPG Miniature? I also know, that the nowadays standard is the 28 mm scale, but even they lack many many standard monsters (if we take the Monster Manuals as a reference here).

And the "lack" of details is IMHO no argument, when you look at some of the Splintered Light Miniatures (Savage Orcs and Dark Elves f.e.) and the defunct Demonworld line. And donīt tell me, that 15/18 mmīs have to look that static like so many do! I bet there are possibilities to fill the smaller scales with more dynamic poses and "movement" than most of them sport ATM.

So my question is: Could there possibly be a real market for 15/18 mm RPG miniatures? To me it seems, that there is a need/demand, since during the last weeks/months several people asked/searched for miniatures representing "normal/everyday" monsters and characters to illustrate their dungeoncrawls.

I look forward to hear/read your opinions

Greetings

I think so, especially with comapinies coming out with 15mm dungeon tiles and such lately.

The economics are against it-- and I say this as someone who would love to game that way. You'd be buying, at most, one or two casts of a given character. At those volumes, you're mostly trying to cover the fixed costs of the sculpt. The prices wouldn't be that different from what people pay currently for 28mm.

I love characters, and if someone can make the math work, then more power to them. I'm just skeptical about the realities from a business model perspective.

so far my 5 figure experiment still has yet to pay for its self 1.5 years later. At this rate it will be another 10 years before it breaks even.

I'd guess that most people who play D&D and similar games already have a substantial collection of 25-30mm minis. I know I do. If I wanted to play RPGs in 15mm I'd have to buy my whole collection over again.

Anyway, I think 15mm is fine when you've got units, not so good for when you are looking at individual figures.

I would love to buy characters in 15mm. Right now I have to buy a couple here and a couple there.

The problem is that when you start talking about PCs, then you have to start making a lot of different figs because people have specific wants.

At the same time though, I would be willing to pay more per figure for individual or small groups of pcs than I would for unit types. I could see paying $1.50 USD or $2.00 USD for good quality figures. Reaper's stuff runs for about $5.00, so it would still be a bargain.

Problem is that I would only buy 1 – 2 of each figure.

Yes….there'd be an interest here as well!

Now, as to how to sell 'em, make up scenario packs!

So, instead of 75 skeletons, you'd get maybe 30 skellies, 20 ghoulies, 15 ghosties, and ten assorted personality figures! Those could be good guys, bad guys or whatever!

-Mike

@Ravenseye

Great idea, reminds me of the "Bloodbath at Orcīs Drift" WH scenario package, where several scenarios interlinked to a small campaign: But they provided paper minis and buildings. Would surely be an interesting concept and could be easily transfered to the RPG sector: small dungeon adventures with floorplans and all the needed adversaries already included.

But I also see the other opinions as very valid. The miniature market is a mass selling market to produce enough cash flow for a company to exist. And to start I can imagine a at least decent line of products (=numbers) is needed to attract future long-time customers (the base of people a company in this field has to rely on). Only two or three packs seem insufficient to me to start, since it wouldnīt produce enough cash flow to feed new projects.

I had some talks with a very good friend of mine last night, and we both agreed on the point, that a sole line of fantasy minis in this scale is not the basis for a healthy company. Either we have to publish a fantasy rules system which carries the minis sale or have minis from other eras to carry the fantasy line (WWII, ACW, ancients, etc.). Otherwise I donīt see an option to stay in the market. And I doubt, that any fantasy wargame/tabletop could get enough support to be financially atrractive.

Greetings

One option for the packaging (to help get the price-point up to a profitable level), would be to do 'progression packs': The adventurer with simple gear, mid-grade, and then high-end equipment. If you sculptor is good enough, adding some age lines or whatever to the face, too. Also, mounted and foot versions, since about half the campaigns I've been in assume horses for long-distance travel.

I still have doubts about the profitability of the idea, though. Characters are a low-sales item, which is not the strength of 15mm.

I would be tempted to switch to 15s if the sculpts were good enough and if there was enough variety. In particular there seems to be a dearth of female characters at present.

I also like Ravenseye's idea. It probably isn't viable but it would be great if there could be a variation on the idea behind the old Steve Jakcson/Metagaming microgames Melee and Wizard where you get a simple RPG system combined with the 15mm miniatures and floorplans you need for each adventure. Maybe just start with a set of 10 miniatures and a floorplan for a gladiatorial arena or a bar-room brawl and take it from there.

I'm definetely interested. Both for RPG and Skirmish.

The problem is that the 28mm inertia means that there aren't alot of other potential buyers.

There's also the catch-22 of what to produce. Niche miniatures probably need the boost from the "popular kids" (orcs, goblins, etc) but the popular kids are competing with each other in a saturated market.

I'd love to have Ultima Gargoyle proxies in 15mm, but I may very well be the only person in the world to wish for this, so why should someone produce those minis.

(Except that they'd be AWESOME, and everyone would want some after seeing them…)

First of all thanks for the comments. During the last days said friend and I had several talks about the matter. The problems which were detailed here (packaing, miniature types, etc.) were the main focus here.

We concluded, that the following would probably make sense (game-wise spoken):

- basic character packs in 3 differing stages for male/female chars (basic races, like human, dwarf, elf and haflings). Her at first the most accepted classes: fighter, wizard, rogue, clerics. Later the missing races/classes could be added (3 minis per pack).

- adventuring packs: same as mentioned above, but one char on foot and mounted (2 minis).

- generic scenario packs: some adventurers plus the needed adversaries in a box/package with a more or less generic scenario. Here some printed floorplanes, generic design, is included to start immediate play. A probable rule-lean old-school system (2-3 pages at the most) is included. (4 acventurers plus 20 tp 30 adversaries).

- Monster packs. Themed around specific monster types (Orcs + Goblins/Beholderkin/ Slime + Oozes) These are to be mixes packages of different monsters with about 10 to 12 different minis in each pack who can used in combination/for a theme based scenario (vampire + ghouls/Lizard man + drow, etc).

So could that be a business/release idea to work out?

Greetings

It might be, but casting isn't cheap, and you'd have a lot of product lines. If you insist that each line-item needs to pay it's own way, you'd need to move an awful lot of each pack.

Remember your cost formula: Cost of sculpting + molding + casting + any overhead (like paying the accountant!) = total sales just to break even.

Let's assume you can sculpt to AB or Khurasan quality. That has an established pricepoint of about $.75 USD per mini, so if it cost you $750 USD to produce (pulling numbers out of my butt here), you'd need to sell a thousand of each line just to break even. I don't know if those prices are accurate, but the $750 USD number is what I remember from Khurasan when he was talking about producing some bigger items.

A thousand minis worldwide isn't too tough, I suppose, but you still need the cash up front to make new product. You do NOT want to be like Alkemy or Wargames Factory, and collapse because you couldn't deliver product on time.

In college I learned a bit about calculating retail prices :). And the usual 0.75 US $ for a mini is justified for a regular wargame mini IMHO. But why should a good detailed character figure been sold for that meager price? OK I know that a 15 mm mini canīt be as detailed (normally) as a 28 mm one, but being in the same line like Splintered light, Demonworld or Khurasan, why not?

And I been following very very closely the WF issue. Therefore any investors or fast-shots-from-the-hip to start a business are out of question.

I agree with you Lion, that it is a tough business and starting from scratch isnīt easy. Therefore the cross-financing with a regular wargame line (ACW, WWII, etc.) seems a way to compensate a little bit (but again the costs are rising). Therefore the question for us is, if we start at all, if customers are willing to pay 6 US $ for a set of three 15 mm RPG chars? And what should be the "support" line of miniatures? Again Krauts and Russians in Stalingrad? Although I am a wargamer, I donīt think the market needs another supplier for this worn out path.

The scenario sets can mini-wise draw their components from the regular adventurer/monster lines (plus 2 or 3 extra ones only available in this line to make it attractive – and yes I learned my marketing too:)).

The whole idea jumped into my brain, since personally I am fed up paying 5 Euros and more just for one figure (and yes I hate 28 mm plastics – period). And when people play/faciliate their RPG sessions in 10 mm (Pendraken), then why not in 15 mm?

To start, we calculated a rough 75000 Euros (for in-house production/casting) and that is a lot to get together!

Greetings

Interesting discussion.

Our Dungeon Pack is around the 10-12mm mark, and has proved very popular. It's got all the various monsters, characters, etc. and from customer feedback people seem to enjoy playing with it.

On the commercial side of things though, I don't think it would have been viable as a lone product. We already had our Fantasy lines to pick and choose monsters and heroes from, and the dungeon pieces to put them in. To produce from scratch all the figures needed, furniture, dungeon pieces, then manufacturing, packaging, marketing, etc. is a whole lot of outlay.

There's all kinds of other factors to consider, but it's about how much you're willing to put in, not just financially.

@Panzerwolf: Excellent! It's always good to be talking business with someone who understands what I'm talking about.

One of the problems with fantasy minis is that everyone has a different idea of what fantasy looks like. A lot of people think that 'GW orcs' are what orcs are supposed to look like. Humans are humans, but what's the technology level or inspiration? Greeks? Romans? Persians? Indian? Chinese? Japanese? Each inspiration will force you to make different choices about your supporting lines.

Guys with cloaks and bows are a classic, but may be done to death. Some of the other concepts from LotR are also close to saturation. Also, how do you tell the difference between a 15mm elf and a 15mm human?

If you're concentrating on fantasy RP minis, I would lean on a historical or fantasy line to support them. Same thing with moderns or scifi. That way, your RP characters can do double-duty as unit leaders for your 'supporting' line.

@ Lion in the Stars

I totally agree with you, that when starting a new minis company, the design of the figures is the most important. I looked at Otherworlds Miniatures and was very pleased about their AD&D approach. Something like that, orcs looking different than the usual green-skins, would be nice, but wouldnīt a radical change here keep potential customers from buying, since they think that the "new" minis are meant for another game/system? I look at Splintered Lights and their Savage Orcs very closely remind me of GW designs (no offend meant folks, great minis IMO).

The difference in human/elves is pretty obvious for me in the Demonworld minis: different armor design, more elegant poses for the elves, and the here-and-there beard for humans.

Design wise we agreed, that specific approaches, like letīs say arabian orcs or dwarfs (we really debated about a Landsknecht line of orcs!), is probably a good idea, but something, that couldnīt attract too much customers. I always keep in mind, that people probably try to stock up their existing armies, therefore this unusal designs probably donīt fit. For a later inclusion into the line, it surely would be worth a try.

For the support lines, personally I would love to do some WWII stuff, since many of the available lines are very good, but lack a kind of uniqueness. The poses are the more or less the same, WSS troopers usually wear the camo smocks and carry assault rifles etc. etc. And personally spoken I miss a unique line of Germans and Russians for the Rat War in Stalingrad! And again, does the market need more Krauts with Schmeissers? I have a bad feeling about that.

We also had the idea to provide a free set of fantasy wargame rules. But what kept us away was the fact, that this approach might draw too many resources away from the RPG line (more new units, more new characters, siege engines and the like). To faciliate this way or keep it alive a constant stream of minis, and rules!, have to be published, because otherwise customers might think, that the game is dead cheese (At least I would think that way)

Although it would be a good way to publish some skirmish/wargame scenario packs with one or two fantasy races in the focal point (and combined with an army package deal might produce enough cash flow to assist the rest of the minis lines). But again, how high could be the acceptance of such an approach, when the Dark Empire of Gaming is selling tons of minis and game boxes? Combined with their very large dealer network and presence on trade/game shows, that doesnīt leave too much space for a new company. And really I donīt feel like competing in any sense with these folks.

Design wise, we both agreed, that a ceratin "old-school" look, combined with dynamic poses (dodging, sword slinging, parrying while running, sidestepping, etc.) might be a way to attract peoples attention.

@ Dave Pendraken

Thanks for the input. And this shows me, that there might be a market for minis in other scales than the usual 28. And I know, if we start this project, than the usual 5 day routine of 9 to 5 is over. But the problems involving families and friends, so the kids donīt start calling you uncle, is our least. My wife is pretty understanding (especially, since she hates my momentary shift schedule).

We also though to produce a line of dungeon tiles/rooms, but basically dropped that, since if we provide the customers with good drawn/designed battleplans (again probably free), we can keep people/customers interested. And if such dungeons are produced, why not in Resin? IMO easy for in-house production and not as expensive as plastic (just remember WF). But again is resin accepted by the customers?

Greetings

Our Dungeon pieces are all resin, for just those reasons. Can be moulded and cast in-house, none of the huge outlay you get with plastics, easy to use, etc. etc.

The 9-5 routine would definitely be over! Between all of us here, we are working some days from 7am in the morning through to 2am at night/morning!

So does anyone product 15mm character models?

A list of manufactures or retailers would be nice.

As someone who absolutely LOVES 15mm, owns no other scale of anything, and runs an rpg every Sunday in 15mm, I would advise you… don't do it.

Trouble is that 15s are by nature much cheaper than 28mm, and yet I used only the same number are needed to play an rpg.

Not a lot of fat left over to run a business on, or to put in your pocket.