"Has FOW Jumped the Shark ???" Topic

Why do you ask? What have they done? Surely it can't be… oh, never mind.

Allen

After selling us North Africa and the Eastern Front twice?

Allen

How dare they do that……..sigh
Dennis

The Pacific--at least the island campaigns--is different enough that FoW may not be the best rules for it (and not just because I don't really want to buy 1:100 BBs and CAs to place on the table for fire support!). I think it's interesting that in all the discussion, the much more conventional CBI theater is completely ignored. But that's a pet hobbyhorse. Giddyap, Dobbin!

Allen

As already pointed out it isn't the first time. Is there something more specific that you think is a problem?

Well, jumping the Crocodiles didn't make new friends.

Allen

We've gamed FoW using 1/285 scale tanks and infantry. The rules work just as well, you need less space, and the battlefield doesn't look like a parking lot. Cheaper too.

Here, KB; enjoy some good vibes instead:

YouTube link

Allen

I agree with aecurtis.

In the name of all that's holy, don't say that three times!

Allen

I agree with aecurtis.

Je suis d'accord avec aecurtis.

Aontaím le aecurtis.

Thank heavens that Stan doesn't understand Garlic.

I agree with aecurtis.
I agree with aecurtis.
I agree with aecurtis.

Cthulu! Cthulu! Cthulu!

Is that enough for you guys?

To answer the question: no more than what 40K has done.

"…no more than what 40K has done."

An example of damning with faint praise.

Allen

Maybe I should get into 40K. No pizz-kapows, though.

Ia! Ia! Curtis ftaghn!

The North African campaign stuff was kind of released 4 times.

The original rulebook had the mid war (largely desert for the brits and Italians) lists in the back of the book.

Then came the original battle books in V1.

Then Afrika.

Now North Africa.

That's been over a pretty decent spread of many years, and each and every edition has been better than the last. You like it, or you hate it, but it's not a new phenomenon.

oh, also:

ia! ia!

"…and each and every edition has been better than the last."

Not so much, when you *lose* lists with a new edition.

Allen

Yeah there's a little reshuffling, but not so much as the evil(er) empire. The Italian organizational changes, for example, really was necessary. Afrika did not accurately represent Italian forces at all- the new book really represents the AS42 org.

Plus, for the more obscure lists, the older books are still fine if you need to pull em out once in a while. But I do get that- nothing is more annoying than having to rework a list! I had to re-work my Italians (hence the example) with North Africa.

Yes, the AS42 organization was good--although it wa not the only one used! But having to wait a veeery long time to acquire the SO weapons teams to make the AS42 organization: not so cool.

The old lists are usable, but the inconsistency in points is an annoyance. Old saw (for saws, but also good for rules writers): measure twice, cut once.

Allen

Just remember that each and every new Intelligence Briefing on some subject or other is a 1000% improvement on the 3 similar ones that preceded it.

Keep repeating that, and shelling out the 50 bucks.

Do you think they will ever get it right?

"Just remember that each and every new Intelligence Briefing on some subject or other is a 1000% improvement on the 3 similar ones that preceded it."

You fanboi, you!

Allen

I understand- you guys want one final book to come out and be the book to end all books. I don't mean that sarcastically- it makes perfect sense for gamers. Clearly- it doesn't make perfect sense for a business. The truth is, I don't mind having all my old favorites get the ol' shakeup every year or so.

Plus- I prefer the big hard back compilations. I guess it just doesn't get me all in a tizzy like it does some people- though I do completely understand the motivation. I am also fortunate enough to have the discretionary income to not really care about dropping $50 USD on a book every few months. God knows I don't need anymore lead :)

Carry on!

"Yes, the AS42 organization was good--although it wa not the only one used! But having to wait a veeery long time to acquire the SO weapons teams to make the AS42 organization: not so cool."

true- but for the time frame North Africa covers, AS42 was largely the norm. I expect we'll see a different org for early war.

"The old lists are usable, but the inconsistency in points is an annoyance. Old saw (for saws, but also good for rules writers): measure twice, cut once."

I do agree there- although the points do seem to be adjusted for fixes, and not as a ploy to sell models. MG teams and Halftracks spring to mind- they've been WAY overcosted for a long time. Great to see them get brought down to a realistic level. Now, how nebelwerfers got cheaper is anyone's guess :P

The main problem with this subject is that FoW does not have a "transparent" points structure. The intelligent gamer cannot construct an army form First Principles. WRG is very good with this. One can take the Rules, and construct a unit.
However, FoW, like Warhammer, GIVES you the points cost. They can change it whenever they want, for "balance".
Note that you cannot divide the points for a large unit and divide it by the number of elements in the unit consistently.
It is entirely subjective, based on what the Godfs at Battlefront want to do.
They can lower the points for "Fearless" tanks on a whim, like they did between Ostfront and Eastern Front. The cynical might think that this allows them to sell more tanks.

.

@Kyote- I know, no worries. Fear nuaght, I couldn't care less if people love or hate BF. I'm just shootin the breeze here :) I also started in 2005. Times was different back then, eh?

@John- The cynical may think that. The less jaded think it's because the points were totally not efficient!

I do agree it would be nice to do away with some of the obfuscation- but I think it's entirely possible to extract individual unit prices. I see your point though, it would be nice to have the "secret recipe"!

Define "efficient".

Costed appropriately? Take MG teams for example. You used to pay out the wazoo to have ROF 3 which is rarely used- you're either pinned or your moving. Consequently, the price did not reflect usage- it was inefficient :)

But if you're convinced the point changes are motivated by figure sales, I probably won't convince you otherwise- and that's fine. Fortunately, Battlefront doesn't have a monopoly on 15mm WWII figs or rules! But as for your example on fearless tanks- did you ever run them? They were so wildly overcosted, it was common knowledge (at least around the tournament crowd) they were terrible, inefficient buys.

I agree with Allen Curtis AND the OFM
Ouch..I think that may be a DH and at least a flogging offense! :)
I'm glad I'm done building FoW stuff! Now I can concentrate on another 'black hole of wargaming'-54mm 1812 and 54mm AWI!

Steve Miller
DFW Irregulars

>>> Now I can concentrate on another 'black hole of wargaming'-54mm 1812 and 54mm AWI!

Now that's just crazy talk, Steve! ;^)

Allen

You're asking this now? Have you already blotted "Mid War Monsters" from your memory?

Mercifully, I had. Tanks for bringing back the pain.

Allen

There's nowt crazy about 54mm. Weird, and possibly very odd, but not crazy….

Mind you, they do take a lifetime to paint…

"Have you already blotted "Mid War Monsters" from your memory?"

I also had forgotten about Mid War Monsters. It was BF's sidetrip for who knows why. The points thing can drive a person crazy. I was tempted to get North Africa, but why when I have Afrika? Not much to go for, but the points did change a bit.

Annoying, but it has to be a bear to figure out those costs on an objective basis. I highly doubt that this point revisionism will ever end.

oh, hey, LOOK I picked up a couple of stifles. Thanks, boys.

They are so cute when the lose their innocence.

Mid War Monsters was stupid. No argument there :)

Again another agreement with AEcurtis . Wise choice

Imagine a tournament game with a point system that changes with the date, the day of the week, the time of day, the phase of the moon, what the writer had for lunch, etc.

I play FoW and have done so for a few years now. I did not buy the first set of Normandy books and I will probably not buy the new ones. All in all it makes little difference to me.

If they redo the Bagration books I might get a touch grumpy but it is their business and nobody forces you to buy anything.

The bagration books will most definitely be redone in a compilation. They have to address the cost of MG teams and halftracks.

Just goes to show you can't please everybody (Anybody?) In this thread Battlefront is taking dings for re-releasing updated army books and then when they try something totally new (Midwar monsters) they take dings for that.

That said, I'll still support Battlefront, but after their latest price increase I am, more and more, looking at other 15mm mini suppliers out there.

Well, there are many other fine 15mm manufacturers out there.
The more that people realize this and support the others, the more the competition will force BF to lower their prices. Maybe.

The last price increase was it for me. My next WWII project will be in 10mm.

Already purchased some Command Decision Panzer 38(t) s for my son's early war army, they are such nice models (At better then half the price then BFs offering) that we are are placing a new order for some PZ II.

Buckaroo- your review has me seriously considering picking those up. Command Decision is hit and miss for me though. But those 38(t)s did look amazing.

To answer the original question: No.

I think that BF continues to tweak and improve their army lists with each new addition. Take the D Day compilation books for example, since they are the subject of the original question. When I go back and read the pre-Cobra books I go nuts looking at the old force organization. Having all of the lists in the new format is a BIG WIN. Also, the inclusion of the official PDF armies in the tome is very much appreciated. Same goes for North Africa and Eastern Front.

And like Indierockclimber, I too have the discretionary income to buy a $50 USD book or two. I love books, love how they're laid out, and I even like the smell. That said, all books should get scanned to PDF and loaded on the iPad.

The cool think about the BF system over that of the GW system (if we have to compare) is that newer versions don't automatically render older versions obsolete. You are welcome to write armies and play from whatever book you like as long as it is acceptable in your gaming group. Heck, you can even play v.1 if you want.

Human nature always has us focusing on the negative. And everyone thinks change is bad. But in a recent Standard Bearer article in White Dwarf, Jervis Johnson tells a story of he and a friend pulling out an old campaign pack and with just a few small tweaks, were able to play the full system. Or as Jervis puts it, the more things change, the more they stay the same.

I'm just glad that companies like Battle Front continue to put out such great products that provide me and my friends with the hours of fun and enjoyment that they do. It's like movies: sure, Valkyrie wasn't the best WW2 movie, but it entertained the hell out of me. And I'm going to pay to see it in the theater and then buy it on blu ray so that it's profitable which will enable the film makers to continue to make the things I'm interested in.