| NikkiB | 26 Apr 2004 12:51 p.m. PST |
All I can do is roll my eyes. I now know how the management of this company works.
Come on now....really.... I was kidding when I made a sarcastic remark about "suitably chastizing" employees...but to have this be the official line?!?!?!? What happened to the "disgruntled" employee? Come on now... OH! I SEE!!! Not even an employee!!! IT'S AN INDEPENDANT CONSULTANT!!! Well...I have a bridge to sell you.
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| Goldwyrm | 26 Apr 2004 1:00 p.m. PST |
Delljohnb, don't sugarcoat things. Tell us how you really feel. |
| NikkiB | 26 Apr 2004 1:03 p.m. PST |
They are liars, they are frauds, and if they were in the US, they would be felons..... |
| Who asked this joker | 26 Apr 2004 1:09 p.m. PST |
If they were in the US, they would be doing business as usual. |
| whill4 | 26 Apr 2004 1:12 p.m. PST |
They would be felons?? How so? |
| Stryker01 | 26 Apr 2004 1:13 p.m. PST |
If it looks like a sock puppet it is a sock puppet. -TJ |
| NikkiB | 26 Apr 2004 1:18 p.m. PST |
Any form of fraud carried on any means of intertate communication is considered a felony.
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| whill4 | 26 Apr 2004 1:21 p.m. PST |
So when a radio DJ enodorses a product he doesn't use then he is a felon also? |
| NikkiB | 26 Apr 2004 1:22 p.m. PST |
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| NikkiB | 26 Apr 2004 1:22 p.m. PST |
link this is the specific US code… |
| whill4 | 26 Apr 2004 1:24 p.m. PST |
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| NikkiB | 26 Apr 2004 1:24 p.m. PST |
$1 Million fine and 30 years in US Federal Prision... in the US, a prison sentence in excess of 11 months 29 days is a felony. Felons? Yes.......... |
 Editor in Chief Bill   | 26 Apr 2004 1:24 p.m. PST |
[They are liars, they are frauds.....] I'm interested in how you reach that conclusion. Doesn't Dean's explanation fit with all of the known facts? |
troopwo  | 26 Apr 2004 1:26 p.m. PST |
I don't mind a company selling themself. Much like everyone else yes I too was disappointed by the sock puppet announcements. Thinking of Deans' support of TMP, both past and no doubt future I don't intend to slag him any further than he has been already. Personally I have had problems in the past with him over orders. A percentage running at near less than half were ever correct. It was always fixed to my satisfaction after a quick contact. Yet he always has gone out of his way for this customers' satisfaction. Regarding their answer, you need to make up your own mind as to what you'll believe. As far as the access to computers go, I would like everyone out there to seriously consider something. Which of you has complete control over your computer either at home or at work. While I can see a mistaken practice from time to time, I hate to bear a grudge against one of the best supporters of the miniatures hobby. With a pregnant wife on his hands, who is at the stage where she is probably no longer in control of either her tastes or emotional balance, I am sure Dean has better things to do than to inflate his ego. (My aplogies Jen) Let's get on with the sculpting, casting, packing, basing, painting or whatever NEEDS to be done. |
| NikkiB | 26 Apr 2004 1:26 p.m. PST |
Well....Ikore for one..... plus you and me, since their actions were intended to artificially boost the cost of pewter miniatures to the public. If you are looking for me to prove standing....that's easy... |
| whill4 | 26 Apr 2004 1:28 p.m. PST |
I was not defrauded. I recieved everything I ever paid for. How was I-Kore defrauded? |
| whill4 | 26 Apr 2004 1:30 p.m. PST |
Their actions were intended to make their customer service appear better than it was. To my knowledge they have never failed to complete a transaction. |
| Editor in Chief Bill | 26 Apr 2004 1:31 p.m. PST |
[Any form of fraud carried on any means of intertate communication is considered a felony.] I don't see how this can amount to fraud. If Vaughan has no ownership role in Black Tree, then he couldn't profit from his postings. Even if you assume that Vaughan's posts were made with knowledge of BTD, they were apparently made to allay concerns about shipping problems - which has no direct tie to making money, since the products had already been paid for. |
| NikkiB | 26 Apr 2004 1:34 p.m. PST |
Bill, I know where you are going with this... however.... since there was an "agent" of theirs who performed these actions...EVEN IF NOT SANCTIONED...the corporation is responsible for those actions. That is the legal definition....period. as to the moral responsibility? Well...I guess that is a matter of opinion. IT IS MY OPINION that they failed when they could have excelled. Did the company perpetrate wire fraud? Yes... Did they morally fail their customers? Yes... It will be left to the market forces to determine if the company survives or fails. Do I PERSONALLY want them to fail? No...of course not... But, the future of the company is in the hands of the owners/managers. Will they take responsibility for the actions of the company or not.....These questions may very well determine the future of the company. I don't think that we shall hear from them for additional input. It's like the little kid telling a liitle white lie...at first it's innocent, but soon it is more than anyone can bare. To be honest, I don't think that I would listen after this last flimsy attempt at an EXCUSE. Good luck to them. Respectfully,
Delljohnb
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| Editor in Chief Bill | 26 Apr 2004 1:36 p.m. PST |
[Well....Ikore for one.....] If I understood the link you posted, the act of fraud (in a legal sense) must deprive one of property or money. The posts about i-Kore were, at worst, an attempt to spread negative ideas to dissuade competitors. That may be tricky (or even smart), but not fraud. [plus you and me, since their actions were intended to artificially boost the cost of pewter miniatures to the public.] Well, actually, the posts involved a sale, so BTD was reducing the cost of miniatures to the public... :-) |
| whill4 | 26 Apr 2004 1:37 p.m. PST |
I'm still not clear how they committed wire fraud. Would please explain it to me? |
| ElCid1098 | 26 Apr 2004 1:40 p.m. PST |
...and following on from whill4's post I'd like to know how many people actually had delayed packages this year. I ordered from them in Feb and it was here in US in 3 weeks. I've never had any of the problems that others here have had. Any chance of a poll Ed? I'd like to know just what % of BTD customers on TMP were caught up in the snail-mail/e-mail/dumb-intern problems that BTD claim they had earlier this year. Might help put all this in perspective one way or the other? |
| whill4 | 26 Apr 2004 1:41 p.m. PST |
My orders typically arrived in 1 to 2 weeks. |
| NikkiB | 26 Apr 2004 1:44 p.m. PST |
Yes....by spreading negative "ideas" and attempting to dissuade competators, the agents of BTD conspired to fraudently suppress the value of the assets of Ikore. The creditors of Ikore were adversly affected by this manipulation of the fair market value of the assets sold at auction. i.e...BTD conspired to lower the cost of Ikore to obtain the assets at a delfated value. Since there was a monitary damage to the asset holders, there was fraud...plain and simple.... The posting here about how customers were unreasonable and "Poop" might be abhorant, however the attempt at defaming the assets of Ikore was clearly criminal. This certainly surpasses the statutory requirement for Probable Cause. |
| Editor in Chief Bill | 26 Apr 2004 1:44 p.m. PST |
[since there was an "agent" of theirs who performed these actions...EVEN IF NOT SANCTIONED...the corporation is responsible for those actions.] Hmmm...interesting question. What if a babysitter (independent contractor), while on my premises and acting as my agent (babysitting my kids), makes a prank call to the fire department? Would I, as the person who contracted for the babysitting services, be responsible? My guess is that the corporation is only responsible for authorized actions by the contractor. But of course, the law there may be different that the law anywhere else... Maybe Dean is like Kwame, and Vaughan is like Omarosa. :-) (That's a reference to the final episode of The Apprentice...) |
| Scutatus | 26 Apr 2004 1:46 p.m. PST |
Yawn yawn yawn. Frankly, I don't care one way or another. So they pretended to be somewone they weren't- or maybe they didn't. Whatever. Big deal. EVERYONE in business lies or misleads these days. Just switch on the tv and watch any advertisement, or on the personal front observe a bragging mate down the pub, or someone trying to impress a date. Get off your high horses and get real. Can anyone here say they have never misleaded or blatantly lied to impress someone, or to cover up a mistake? Can anyone here watch our governments in action and say we have a "righteous and honest" society? Are you suckered by all the loan company advertisements that would have you beleive getting into debt and putting your house at risk is GOOD and even FUN? Do you really beleive "Lynx for men" makes you irresistable to females?! Can you really have a mini adventure? Do Ferrero Roche really balance into an untoppable pyramid and make you the darling of parties? Did they really drink Volvic Mineral water back in the age of Dinosaurs? Is Heineken really made in Denmark? Or is Fosters really Australian? Does Father Christmas really deliver Coca Cola? NO! So Black Tree employed a dubious PR technique...well SO WHAT? Newsflash! So has everyone else for DECADES!!!! Get real and get off Black Tree's backs. Go find something else to get so morally high and mighty over. Scutatus. No connection to Black Tree Design what so ever. Unless buying lead figures from them counts as a "connection".
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| NikkiB | 26 Apr 2004 1:48 p.m. PST |
oh...I forgot to mention... There does not have to be actual damamge...all that has to be proven is that a REASONABLE person believes that the defendant ATTEMPTED to manipulate the value. If they had TALKED about it, but never acted on their ideas, this would be considered Conspiracy to Wire Fraud. A conspiracy to commit a crime is considered "one level lower". This, unfortunately in this case, would not bring the crime into the area of a misdemeanor...hence...it is still a felony. |
| Editor in Chief Bill | 26 Apr 2004 1:49 p.m. PST |
[The creditors of Ikore were adversly affected by this manipulation of the fair market value of the assets sold at auction.] Except for those creditors involved in starting up Urban Mammoth, since their interests were to bid the lowest price to recover the assets. |
| WaylandGames | 26 Apr 2004 2:01 p.m. PST |
I dont believe the explanation. He cant be much of a consultant if he couldnt sort our their email problems in 2 months.
Methinks the explanation has been created to sort of fill the facts, rather than being the truth. |
| Ned Coates | 26 Apr 2004 2:04 p.m. PST |
Scutatus is right in that this happens all the time in every walk of life. However do you remember the woman who worked for the tobacco company who insulted their customers? That was front page news. You DO NOT insult your customers. Period. And trying to cover up a cover up that resulted in a customer who had a genuine complaint being insulted is pretty low. I will not be getting off their backs, if it was just the sick puppet thing I'd find all this highly amusing, however I could be the next person with a complaint that they decide to ignore and then eventually insult on a public message forum. Hmmm.. actually no I won't. |
| NikkiB | 26 Apr 2004 2:04 p.m. PST |
Yes...that is irrelevant.... This question can be resolved by looking at the statute... "Whoever, having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice to defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, transmits or causes to be transmitted by means of wire, radio, or television communication in interstate or foreign commerce, any writings, signs, signals, pictures, or sounds for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both. If the violation affects a financial institution, such person shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both" Let's take this one ELEMENT at a time....that's a legal term for "one step at a time", however it also delotes that ALL steps must be present...if ANY step is not present, then the specific section does not apply......
"scheme or artifice"..in our case this was the posting of supposed independant ideas.
"to defraud or obtain money or property" this asks the question of "why" were these posts made. "by means of false or fraudulent pretenses"...honesty would PREVENT prosecution. Is that the case here? That would be decided by a measure called "Reasonability". Sinece "these figures are terrible" is an opinion, BTD has no ACTIVE defense here. ACTIVE defense is the key term. The remainder of the statute addresses the transmission over communication wire. Respectfully,
Delljohnb ps. I understand that there are a bunch of legal terms flying around here. I'm quite comfortable with them, but I have tried to make them understandable to the average "non-legal" person. |
| Ned Coates | 26 Apr 2004 2:05 p.m. PST |
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| NikkiB | 26 Apr 2004 2:09 p.m. PST |
as to the fire call..... yes..... you would be responsible..... IF she acted neglegently, then you would be responsible for the actions. However, since she was most likely a juvenile, her parents would then be the party liable for the action. I worked a case as a police officer once where there was a "baby sitter" who was not reasonably responsible...the parents hired her, and while the parents were out, the child died due to the babysitters neglegence. The parents were arrested because they failed to provide protection for the children. |
| NikkiB | 26 Apr 2004 2:10 p.m. PST |
charge was "involuntary manslaughter"..... |
| altfritz | 26 Apr 2004 2:11 p.m. PST |
So the typical the Republicans are all Felons? (based on the typical negative - and generally misleading - advertising that comes across the border) |
| Ned Coates | 26 Apr 2004 2:13 p.m. PST |
No republicans are all satan's minnions sent to destroy us all! |
| NikkiB | 26 Apr 2004 2:19 p.m. PST |
Now...since I have put to rest the legal debate over the definition of "wire fraud" and "felony", let's get back to the moral ramifications of this action... was it "right" or "ok"? should BTD issue an appology? Were they the victim of an over-zealous employee? does any of this even matter in the grand scheme of gaming? (you might be suprised...but I don't think that the revelation about BTD is a bad thing...I actually think it is a good thing...) opinion - still....despite my acidic diatribe, I still feel that BTD can redeem itself if it was to simply say "We are sorry for any misunderstanding. We don't approve of this." Hrmph...well....well see.
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| NikkiB | 26 Apr 2004 2:23 p.m. PST |
Bill....there has been alot of posting velocity on this thread. Did I answer all the questions that you asked or were wondering about? They may have gotten lost in the mix. BTW....you ARE RIGHT to question what I have posted here. Once again, it is a credit to your objectivity. My respect only grows. With Deepest Respect,
Delljohnb |
| jgawne | 26 Apr 2004 2:29 p.m. PST |
You know, a swift apology would have been the best thing. Even if it was a "we have no idea what happened, we're REALLY sorry and will look into it" followed by a "this is what we found and we are MORTIFIED and very very sorry." But then, that's just my opinion. I don't like seeing people NOT take responsibility for their actions. Allowing somone to use your internet connection is an action you should take responibility for. |
| ming31 | 26 Apr 2004 2:33 p.m. PST |
"The man who grooms the moose has been sacked." ( Monty Python) The entire incident has shown me 1) BTD makes nice figures and a majority agrees with that. 2) BTD mail order is hit or miss. 3) Complaints about mail order problems may not be answered by bonofide employees . I will not order from BTD due to "hit or Miss " but if I see them while shopping I would pick them up . |
| Schmitt | 26 Apr 2004 2:35 p.m. PST |
delljohnb: If you are/were a cop, then that just proves that you have no clue how to interprit a staute, code or caselaw. Rob the Attorney |
| Who asked this joker | 26 Apr 2004 2:39 p.m. PST |
Hmmmm...when you defraud somebody, don't you have to inflict some sort of harm? For instance, say they advertise the best 28mm figures for $1.00 each. You buy 100 of them only to get 6mm figures in the mail. That is fraud. Say you buy what you think is going to be a beautifully painted figure for $50 and you get in the mail, a cheep picture of a beautifully painted figure printed out on an ink jet printer. That is fraud. Say you are a government contractor. A competitor bidding on the same job as you "lets slip" the bottom line of the hourly wage they plan on bidding. Based on this information, you place your bid only to find that the same competitor undercut you. This is not fraud. The is not even a crime. This sort of thing happens all of the time. It is misinformation. If you are dumb enough to act on information without verifying it, that is your loss. BTD did give out plenty of misinformation. However, they never misrepresented what they do or the products, prices and services they offer. They have never damaged anyone as far as I can tell. They simply pulled a dumb media stunt that backfired. |
| gloria invictus | 26 Apr 2004 2:44 p.m. PST |
Some people take themselves (and their apparant "knowledge") a little too seriously. was that clear enough in average "non-legal" terms? |
| DoomOnYou72 | 26 Apr 2004 2:47 p.m. PST |
I will still buy thier minis as I feel like it. I could really care less about the sock puppets and related crap. Its stupid and petty what they did Ill give you that... but so are some of the responses. No matter what answer they gave right, wrong, or apology, it wouldnt matter to some. Delljohnb if you make statements like calling them liars and frauds without proof and it cuts into thier sales isnt that fraud under your average "non-legal" terms? |
| NikkiB | 26 Apr 2004 2:50 p.m. PST |
Rob the Attorny As a police officer I did not interpret. I enforced. As a lawyer, Rob the attorny, only a court can interpret. You should know that. LOL... BTW...that's "OFFICER Baugher" to you....I would have corrected you as such in court. Respectfullt,
John "Delljohn" Baugher, Metro Nashville Police Dept, Ret. |
| NikkiB | 26 Apr 2004 2:52 p.m. PST |
app on the spelling...darn spell check...
make that "Rob the Attorney"
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| Zaphod Beeblebrox | 26 Apr 2004 2:56 p.m. PST |
Wow, someone has a *lot* of time.... |
| NikkiB | 26 Apr 2004 3:00 p.m. PST |
yep...when the cat's away the mice will play.
Both kids are at friends' houses studying, and the wife is working late.
WEEEHEEEE!!!! Single's night!!! LOL
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| Catweazel Rainbow Warrior | 26 Apr 2004 3:30 p.m. PST |
There is no mention of "Sordid Affair" user name. How has that one been explained? Overall a nice "plausible explanation" that explains everything and nicely seperates BTD from blame. Shame it took so many days to think u.... er ... be made public |
| blueduck | 26 Apr 2004 3:36 p.m. PST |
As a person who had problems with them, I think this has really gone far enough. Hassling them at conventions, dozens of posts and just going too far. They screwed up. Whether they say they're sorry, post an explanation or whatever is their business. This is miniatures, not Watergate. People have more than enough information to decide whether the miniatures are worth the potential problems, and it is no ones place to now try to wrench facts out of them. Buy their figures or don't.
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