"Dando-Collins (Legions of Rome)" Topic

One aspect of gaming and history that's often a perfect 'Catch 22' is that you don't know a book is 'wrong' unless you already know the information you purchased it for in the first place!

I've just taken delivery of the above on some good recommendations but have since noted some detailed questions about the authors claims on a Legions antecedence elsewhere.

Personally, I'd have been none the wiser even if the doubters are correct.

However, before I've even read the first page, I noted some nice colour plates of scutum designs attributed to individual legions.

I am familiar with the idea of variations on Lightning and Thunderbolts but there are also a whole range shown with Boars, Bulls, Centaurs, Lions and other devices.

I'm no Roman scholar by any stretch of the imagination but I seem to recall reading that at one time no 'classic' scutum had ever been found intact and the only reference for shield patterns was the Notitia Dignitatum, which is of course much latter.

It may be that this is explained in the text of the book somewhere, as I've yet to read it, but has some new (or just new to me) evidence come to light, or is this just likely to portray speculation on the part of the author?

Is this the'definative guide' ?

I think it was roundly criticised on RAT for some of it's assumptions.

Forgot to say – my comment "I seem to recall reading that at one time no 'classic' scutum had ever been found intact"

Was in relation to colours – obviously there are other possible sources for the designs themselves.

Trajan's column has scutum designs. Wall paintings, funerary monuments etc. may provide info.

Is this the'definative guide' ?

I think it was roundly criticised on RAT for some of it's assumptions.

Yes that's the one! Have to say I don't put much faith in the 'definative guide' to anything!

The RAT comments were those I referred too. Like I said that doesn't bother me greatly. Where history is concerned I accept there is always a counter view of anything.

Its always a problem when a general 'historical' author goes into print that those who live and die that particular subject will be on his or her case.

I like Goldsworty but you don't have to travel far to find people who pick holes in him, for example.

apathostic,

Yes, that's the kind of thing I was talking about, which is why I corrected myself.

Like I said, its more the possible colours of the shields I was wondering about.

Unfortunately, colour is always a sticking point for anything that has a short shelf life archaeologically, like wood, leather, or painted plaster, and normally the first victim when an object decays. Unless an actual example of the object (shield facing, wall painting, etc.) can be found, and analysis can be made of the materials used, it devolves to a "best guess" option.

I am always searching for new discoveries leading to the most accurate depiction.

Good luck.

There have, unfortunately, been no new major discoveries. We have one (1) complete Roman Scuta, the so-called "Dura Europos Shield", which is more or less intact. S

Some Roman historians believe that it (Dura Europos) represents a more common pattern than Phil Barker, who alleges that the pattern is "Far too complex for anything more than parade ground usage". I had a prof in undergrad who said that Mr. Barker was obviously "completely unfamiliar with the artistic styles of the Ancient World if he thinks this is too 'complex' for field use", so I tend to agree with the former, rather than the latter.

This was definitely an Imperial shield, circa third century AD, but it may well have been recycled and used several times over the decades.

There was also, supposedly, the remnant of a cavalry shield found in Germany. I believe that it was either pink with green edging, or green with pink edging. Barker makes this claim in "Armies and Enemies of Imperial Rome", but I have been unable to confirm this independently. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist, just haven't been able to track down any references to it.

There is a claim that a "stack of shields" was found in Pompey, their decorated facings burned off, but the rear of the shield painted a dark brick red color. It circulates a lot in ancient wargaming circles. Again, can find no evidence of this, and have even spoken to some of the folks at Pompey and Herculaneum that I've been lucky enough to correspond with. "It would be a cool find," my advisor told me, "but I've never heard of it."

We do have several wooden shield fragments, including fragments of Republican era shields, but none of them have any trace of paint, unfortunately. Same with the various victory arches and monuments. There is one particularly famous mosaic which depicts soldiers and gladiators; one of the figures is carrying a yellow shield with a brown or black scorpion motif painted onto its surface, but it appears to be a gallic pattern shield. I'm afraid I don't have any good references before me (maybe Allen Curtis might know where it is?)

The sad truth is that we know more about Roman military clothing (more archaeology coming to light every day) than we do about shield patterns. Indeed, we know more about Assyrian shield colors than we do Roman shield colors, because some of those Assyrian motifs survived! For some reason, the Romans just don't discuss them. I suspect, and this is completely my opinion granted, that shield colors were so common to the Roman mindset that they weren't really considered important. It's not as if modern historians of the Gulf War, for example, spend a great deal of time discussing the colors of the uniforms worn by US Troops or their Iraqi opponents, and I suspect it's a similar situation with the Romans. Too pedestrian a detail to deal with.

Hopefully, I'll be proven wrong one of these days.

Interestingly enough, there was a victory monument, to Antoninus Pius (or maybe it's Septimius Severus.. I'm a bit sick, and therefore, muddled, today) if memory serves, which was recorded as having some paint fragments in the eighteenth century. However, nobody seems to have bothered to written these things down, or the information is lost, and so far as I know, the monument no longer exists.

I have a friend, a well read young woman who also wargames, who has theorized, again completely "unsourced" that Roman shield patterns were probably not at all dissimilar from those in the Notitia Dignatum five hundred years before that document. She suggests that the complexity of the designs may have simplified somewhat, or that the colors may have altered, but she thinks that the Romans essentially stuck with certain repeating themes over and over again. Interesting idea, of course, the patterns on the Arch of Titus and Trajan's various works don't seem to repeat those "later Imperial" patterns in earlier forms. But, who knows?

Keep in mind that we have yet to discover even the scattered remains of even one of the Imperial armories from the post-Republican era, despite the fact that we are very confident they existed. So, it's all very theoretical here.

-A.

Aurelian,

Many thanks for the detailed reply. It sounds much as I suspected, unfortunately.

Your comment "shield colors were so common to the Roman mindset that they weren't really considered important" could well be the case.

I'm sure that throughout all periods of history we are still looking for confirmation of facts that were so common place in their time, you would have been considered odd to have recorded them!

No problem. Something that really fascinates me, so I'm happy to help. You know, the Romans really enjoyed painting things in what we'd consider gaudy or ugly colors today (deep purplish tinges, pinks, unusual greens), so I somewhat suspect that we might discover that their preferred shield colors in a few cases might shock
Us!

Just reading this book at the moment.

I suspect/hope the use of the word "definitive" is down to the publisher, not the author.

And the shield patterns strike me as a bit of imagination based on the known emblems of the legions.

Would welcome any comments on its accuracy or otherwise.

the shield patterns strike me as a bit of imagination based on the known emblems of the legions

Well that's really what led me to post in the first place!

I suspect your right about "definitive", you would have a bit of an ego problem if you did that as an author!

I'm enjoying the book though.

Since we know so little about the reality of most shield designs I am surprised no one (like LBM) has replicated any of Dando-Collins proposed Roman emblems for use as transfers.

They were certainly add new character to Imperial Roman armies.

I loved reading the book, and I am not usually interested in Imperial Rome.