"The Greeks at Odessa" Topic

Does anyone know if the Greeks whop went to Odessa in teh RCW had armoured cars or any other form of armoured support. Also, I believe their Navy had some aircraft (DH.4 I believe) in operation there but not clear on their colourings.

(I have WW1 Greek Evzones and fancied getting them involved in the RCW…)

The Greeks had no armour, but they were fighting alongside the French who had both armoured cars and tanks.

The Russian Whites in the area also had armoured cars.

Russians, Poles and French had planes in operation. I've never heard of Greek ones.

I found it again in the TO&E here

link

- the 534th Hellenic Aviation Sq.

…and here

link

This one says 543rd Sqdn or 4th Flotilla

I'd ignore the first guy. As he cites no sources, I reckon he's as likely to have just nicked the information from me and Alexis Mehtidis. Including my map as a link was a bit of a giveaway. Getting the 543 wrong does not inspire confidence either.

If Alexis (second link) says the 543 squadron/401st Airplane Flotilla landed in Odessa in March, then I would believe him.

Not sure how a few seaplanes help though.

The other link I found was this one, noting that DH. 9's were used by Naval aviators.

link

Greek squadrons I can find are 531, 532 and 533, so 534 is more believable than 543.

Next is to find out what they would have looked like……

I don't have an aircraft for my Greeks yet, so I think a DH.4 is the best bet for WW1, RCW and Graeco-Turkish war. (My army is 28mm so there is less choice than snaller scales)

They were used by naval aviators during the Asia Minor campaign.

It's a big leap forwards to that were used in Odessa. Especially as the evidence points to seaplanes.

Just paint D.H.9s for the Anatolian campaign. Then at least they will be historical for that time.

True, but the Asia Minor campaign was within months of the Odessa adventure, and Air forces don't switch planes in and out that quickly.

Could be seaplanes, but as the DH. 9s were used in Asia Minor but only converted with hydroplanes in 1926 I think there is some evidence of non-seaplane usage (there are also notes of the Navy using land based Camels in 1918). The Navy sent 10 DH 9's and 15 Camels to the Asia Minor campaign, I hypothesize a similar sort of force going to Odessa.

We also know roughly when the various 'planes entered service and the DH.9 is coming in in 1918/1919, and is merely a re-engined DH.4 which the Greeks also used at this time. Given that the Army Air Force is using the Breguet for the bombing/recce job, it is (in my view) likely that the Navy is using the DH 4 and upgrading with DH 9.

As to what the aircraft would look like, any links you have gratefully received. I have seen one guy colouring them olive green.

Defense of Kherson Russia = January 17-February 25 1919. A series of bitter engagements fought against Red Russian forces. Units of the Greek 7th and 34th Divisions conducted a combination of attacks, reinforcing and defensive operations.

Battle of Vasilinovo and Berezovka Russia = February 8- March 5 1919. A series of bitter engagements fought against Red Russian forces. Units of the Greek 1st and 34th Divisions conducted a combination of attacks, reinforcing and defensive operations.

Relief of Kherson = February 23, 1919. The Greek 1st regiment broke through the Red lines surrounding Kherson long enough to evacuate the besieged Allied garrison.

Battle around Odessa = March 6-21 1919. The Greek 3rd, 34th and 5/42nd Regiments fight a series of engagements around the city of Odessa.

Operations in Sevastapol = March 1919. The Greek 2nd Regiment is involved in several battles around the city.

Defense of Odessa = March-April 1919. The Greek forces in the city delay the Red Forces by using a fighting withdrawal tactic

These articles will cover Greece's involvement in the Great War, the Democratic effort to aid the ‘White' Armies in Southern Russia and the Greek expansionist efforts in Asia Minor.
The sources used in the composition of the various articles and other nice reference materials include:
"Atlas of the First World War by Martin Gilbert, Dorset press, 1970.
" The Evones" by Yannis Mylonas, Athens, Greece, 1998.
" The First World War " by Martin Gilbert, Holt Company, 1994.
" An Illustrated Companion to the First World War" by Anthony Bruce, Penguin, 1989.
" A Index of Events in the Military History of the Greek Nation" by the Hellenic Army General Staff, Athens, Greece, 1998.
"Ionian Vision: Greece in Aisa Minor, 1919-1922" by Michael L. Smith, University of Michigan, 1998.
" Uniforms of the World" by Knotel, Scribners press, 1980 edition.
" The World War One Source Book" by Phillip Haythornwaite, Brockhampton Press, 1992.
The bibliographic sources include:
"An Index of Events in the Military History of the Greek Nation" by the Hellenic Army general Staff, Army History Directorate, Athens, 1998. This is the main source for the chronology of the conflict.
"The Evones" by Yannis Mylonas, J Floros Publishing, Athens. It is an excellent book on the history of the Greek Light Infantry units. It contains numerous photos from the war and illustrations on the uniforms of the era.

If desired I can insert a list of Greco-Turkish battles. Both sections come from a 'Time Portal Passages' article.

Thanks Rudy – the 5/42 Regiment are the Evzones that I have as my force.

(Evzones are the guys in skirts and tassled caps with pom poms on their shoes who now guard the Greek official buildings, but historically were tough as old boots – see here

link

When I was offered 80 of them from Eureka's 100 club I just had to have them :-) )

Re Graeco-Turkish battles, we don't have Turks right now so are fighting WW1 and RCW, so don't post if there is a hasssle – be great to have a link to the article though!

Anything on Aircraft or any Armour used also gratefully received

January 1919 = Greek troops land in Southern Russia to assist the Allies (French and Roumanian) and Russian ‘White ‘ armies.
January-March 1919 = Greek units involved in heavy fighting in Russia. See Key battles section for more details.
May-June 1919 = Greek troops in Russia begin to be replaced by Roumanian troops. The Greek forces are transferred to fight the Turks in Asia Minor.
May 1919 = Based on the Truce agreements with the Ottomans, Greece is given control over a large area around Smyrna in Asia Minor. Greek troops begin to land in Smyrna.
June 1919-June 1920 = Greek occupy several key towns in their zone of occupation. Some Greek units are involved in skirmishes with unorganized hostile Turkish troops.
April-May 1920 = French troops withdraw from Western Thrace and are replaced by Greek troops.
March 1921 = Greek troops launch major operations to capture and/or consolidate territory in Asia Minor
July 1921 = Major Greek operations are conducted to crush Kermalist forces fail.
August 1921 = Major Greek operations to capture Ankara fails to capture the city
September 1921 = Greek Forces shift from Offensive operations to more defensive operations. They begin a slow process of withdrawal from Turkish territory in the face of growing Kermalist strength.
September 1922 = The Greeks withdraw from Smyrna and Asia Minor

Battle of Aydin Turkey = June 17 & 20 1919. Ottoman forces capture Aydin on June 17. The Greek 4th regiment counter-attacks and regains control of Aydin.

Battle of Sahili, Asia Minor = June 10 1920. The Greek 1st cavalry Regiment and other infantry companies from the 13th Division captures the town from Ottoman Loyalists.

Battle of Philadelphia, Asia Minor = June 11 1920. Greek Army Corps Alpha captures Philadelphia from the Turks after a bitter fight. Over 1,500 Turkish casualties are recorded.

Battle of Soma = June 11 1920. The Greek Smyrna Corps captures Soma after weak resistance.

Assault of the Soma-Ayvalik Defensive Line = June 16 1920. The Greek 13th Division and the Archipelago Division attack the Turkish fortified positions between Soma- Keresun and Ayvalik-Kemer. The Greeks are repulsed.

Battle of Balikesir, Asia Minor = June 17 1920. The Greek Archipelago Division routs the Turkish Loyalist 61st Division. Over twenty machineguns, eight cannon and 1,500 troops are captures.

Battle of Moudania = June 25 1920. The Greek Archipelago Division defeats a weak Turkish force near Prousa. The pursuing Cavalry Brigade captures Moudania after confused and weak resistance.

Battle of Adrianople = July 1920. The Ottomans 1st Corps under Tayyar resists Greek occupation. The Greeks use three divisions and finally capture Adrianople.

The Dorylaeum Offensive = March 1921. The Greek C Corps launches a major offensive. It fails to breach the Kermalist positions. The Greeks return to their initial positions near Prousa.

The Assault on Dumlupinar, Asia Minor = March 12 1921. The Greek A Corps captures the city from Ottoman Defenders after bitter fighting .

The Battle of Afyonkarahisar, Asia Minor =March 1921. The Greek A Corps is repulsed in several attempts to capture the town. They finally capture it on March 14 but are unable to hold the town after the Kermalist Turks launch constant counter-attacks.

The Eskishe Offensive, Asia Minor = June- July 1921. A massive Greek offensive operation was launched against Kermalist forces centered around Eskishe, Kutahya and Afonkarahisar. Despite limited greek success the Kermalist position grew stronger.

Battle of Kutahya = July 4. The Greek 10th Division captures Kutahya.

Battle of Eskishehir = July 8 1921. After initial Greek success, the Kermalist regroup and launch massive counterattacks. The battle is considered the largest battle of the war. It is also fought in open ground (without trenches.).. The Greek July Offensive was halted with both sides still in a stallmate position.

The Ankara Offensive = August 1921. With the Allied occupation of Constantinople, the Ottoman government operated mainly out of Ankara. The Greeks decided to shift their attack from against the strong Kermalist positions to an assault on Ankara. The offensive due to long and difficult supply lines fails to capture the capital.

The Sangarius Defensive Line = August 10 1921. The Greek advanced on the defenses of Ankara from the south. The attack was lead by Corp A and Corp C and Supported Corp B. The Turks had built the defenses in a series of entrenchment belts. (The belts were similar to those seen in the Western Front during the Great War). The initial probes by the Greek Army were easily repulsed.

The Breach of the First Defensive Belt = August 14 1921. The Greek Corp C attacked on the left flank and captured the defensive points centered on Sapanca. Corps A carried the bulk of the attack in the center and captured Taburoglu. The 5th Division from the reserve Corp (B) attacked on the left and captured Kale Groto. All initial objectives in the first belt were captured but heavy looses were suffered by the Greeks.

The Assault on Artiz Dag- Cal Dag = August 20 1921. The Greek assault continued with these pints only being captured after heavy fighting. The Greeks were finding it difficult to hold on to their gainsagainst continued Turkish counter-attacks.

The Withdrawal of the Greek Army from Ankara = August 29 to September 14 1921. The Greek Army retreats from Ankara to their initial positions near Eskishehir.

The Turkish Afonkarahisar Offensive = August 13 1922. After months of consolidating and resupply, the Turkish/Kermalist army conduscts a massive artillery bombardment against the Greek entrenchments. A massive Turkish offensive operation was launched against Greek forces centered around Eskishe, Kutahya and Afonkarahisar. After initial bitter fighting, the Greek forces began a rapid almost a rout. Turkish cavalry Divisions kept up the pressure to keep the Greek from rallying.

Battle of the Salihi Railway Station = August 23 1922. The Greek 13th Division and a Cavalry Division hold the railway station against Turkish Cavalry and infantry in order for Greek Forces to be able to continue to withdraw to Smyrna.

I ran across internet sites on the Turkish air force aqnd have a squadron signal style book on the Bulgarian WW1 air force.

I will check my other books when I can as they are in storage until I get new flooring placed.

As you can see great scenario possibilities. I did a series of articles in Time Portal Passages titled 'The War that Would not end. It included Trans-Caucas actions as well.

Thanks!

As you say, some great scenarios.

Something to note about RCW and Graeco-Turkish war (and teh Hungarian – Roumanian war) is cavalry effectiveness in keeping up pressure on retiring armies and ouitflanking enemies, so cavalry use in WW1 and 1920's (and 30's?) is not irrational.

Freecloud, you may already have this info. It is excerts from websites and not my article.

The Greek Air Force used this Breguet Br.14A2 against the Turkish Forces in 1921
In May 1919 the Hellenic armed forces with the consent of the Allies, landed at Smyrna. Despite the inadequacy of assets and the ageing equipment the Hellenic Air Force actively participated in the operations with four squadrons of the Army Air Service and one of the Naval equivalent.
From 1919 until the end of 1922, it developed a multifarious activity with reconnaissance, photography, strafing and bombing missions as well as air fights, effectively covering a front which reached 700 km in 1921. Among the squadrons' activities, exceptional were the bombing missions of Kioutachia and Eski Sechir.
Unabated was the Hellenic Air Service's support during both the Hellenic Army's advance and its retreat that followed, reaching the limits of the performance of the assets in its inventory.
Noteworthy is the air fight of July 12, 1922 during which aviator Christophoros Stavropoulos shot down a Turkish Breguet north east of Afion Karachisar.
Twenty three aviators offered their lives for the cause of the «Great Idea».

The Greeks already had and aviation during the Balkans wars (1912-1913), but very limited. The English navy gave a few training planes to the Greeks after 1915 (Bristol scouts), but the real expansion of the Greek aviation came after 1917 when the country officially declared war to the central powers. Some French Greek squadrons were created and flew French planes with French and Greek pilots. They had SPAD fighters and Breguet 14 bombers. The French ace Dieudonné Costes was for a time posted in one of those French-Greek escadrilles.
Airco de Havilland DH9
Serial no. NAY-78, Royal Hellenic Naval Air Service, Alfion-Karahisar airfield, July 1921. Aircraft is finished in PC 10 Doped Linen on upper flying surfaces, fin, undercarriage legs and rear fuselage, with Battleship Grey fuselage panels. Undersurfaces and wheel covers are Clear Doped Linen. Greek national markings are Blue and White, and have been converted from existing RNAS roundels from when these DH9s were based at Moudros during WW1. The serial number is in White, and is partially obscured by a Dark Grey/Black wavy line. This pattern was a theatre marking applied to all operational aircraft involved in the Greco-Turkish war of 1919-1922. Note that roundels on the lower wing surface do not have a 1-inch White outline.

Ansaldo A-1 Balilla
Serial no. NAY-117, Royal Hellenic Naval Air Service, Tatoi airfield, near Athens, 1923. This aircraft was one of eight seized from an Italian ship en route to Turkey. These aircraft retained their factory finish of Clear Doped Linen flying surfaces, Dark Varnished Wood fuselage and Natural Metal cowling. Greek roundels are worn on the upper wings and fuselage sides. The lower outer wing surfaces were painted Blue, to a width of approximately seven rib bays. Serial number is White.

Breguet 14 A2
Serial no. 3846, Royal Hellenic Army Air Force, unknown airfield, 1921. This aircraft was one of at least 30 Breguet 14 A2 and B2 types which served with the joint French-Hellenic 522 and 523 Reconnaissance-Bomber Squadrons. This aircraft is finished in a Green and Brown camouflage scheme, with Natural Metal forward and upper fuselage areas. Lower flying surfaces are Clear Doped Linen. Struts, undercarriage legs and wheel covers are Light Grey. Greek roundels in Blue and White, adapted from French roundels, are worn on the upper and lower wings as well as the fuselage. The Asia-Minor 'wavy line' theatre marking in Dark Grey/Black partially obscures the fuselage roundel. Serial number and rudder data are Black.

freecloud: do want all references to the use of armour and aircraft in the Odessa area?

The full answer – the official Greek history: "To Ellinikon Ekstrateutikon Soma eis tin Mesivrinin Rosian". You want detail, it gives detail.

The medium answer – the book that I wrote with Alexis Mehtidis and Tom Hillman: "How Odessa became Red". It actually describes in full all those battles Rudy lists. Every major action by the Greeks in the Odessa and Sebastopol area is described.
link

The short answer – use French allies. Then you can have tanks, armoured cars and airplanes aplenty. The Greeks rarely fought alone in the Odessa area anyway.

From the other angle, for RCW aviation try "Aviatsiya Grazhdanskoy Voini" by Kondrat'ev.

You can try and investigate all you like, but there is nothing much to find. The planes arrived mid-March. By the time any airfield was set up and ready for use they evacuated. I have actually investigated this.

Great – thanks re colours, you are better at searching the Web than I….the Breguets are Army, the DH. 4 and 9 were Navy.

I will build a DH.9 without the wavy black ad assume that is OK for Odessa then.

Love the "inadequacy of assets and ageing equipment" bit – the Turks had very little better and the DH.9 and Breguet were considered pretty good aircraft at the time.

(The disbanded Turkish Air Force scraped together 17 aircraft, a mixture of Albatros, Breguet, Fiat, De Havilland and Spad models for that war – but at least the Spad and Albatros were fighters, the Greeks having none AFAICS)

With the Allied occupation of Constantinople, the Ottoman government operated mainly out of Ankara.

Sorry to point this out, and I am sure it was a typo but there was no Ottoman govemrent in Ankara but a revolutionary Turkish one (Kemal). The Ottoman goverment (the Sultan) outside of Istanbul had collapsed.

@Mark – that book looks very good, I will order a copy.

I wasn't originally going to go into it in any great detail, as all we wanted to do a Russians v Greeks battle (as I have Greeks and another memeber our club has Russians, and we usually play together vs the Huns in the Salonika front) and I just wanted to know if I need to get a tank or armoured car for my Greeks, and which 1:48 scale aeroplane to get, because the rules allow you to use 'em :-)

However, this thread is becoming amazingly interesting (thanks all) – Odessa looks like a fascinating area to build some wargaming scenarios out of (we have adapted one of the 2FatLardies' scenarios already for this war to game in the early New Year).

Buut, your book looks like an excellent resource for what is turning out to a fascinating little "between the wars" campaign, as so many exotic players are involved (and so many exotic uniforms), so I will order it!

(BTW it also plays well to my 1920's Imagi-Nation, "Byzantia", a 'tween the wars Balkan back of Beyond state)

Re: Aircraft – I found this

wp.scn.ru/en/ww1/b/47/23/0#1

If you want to find out why Greece really lost in Asia Minor look up the book-The Blight of Asia by George Horton.It is available on the Internet for free.Just Google the title.It is a book not mentioned in bibliographies namely because it tells of how the Western Allies stabbed the Greeks in the back.It comes as no surprise that the book is not mentioned in the above list of books.George Horton was the American consul in the region of the Balkans and Turkey.He served there for many years and new the region well.The book tells of what he witnessed first hand and also information given to him by other witnesses.Don't expect to see a documentary about this episode on the History Channel in the near future.If you do it will won't mention the Western Allies underhanded role in the whole, bloody and tragic affair.

Thanks Theodore, will do.

We've played quite a few more games since 2010, both WW1 and RCW – link here for anyone interested. Also a few recent RCW ones I haven't written up yet, will go on this link.

Sorry, here link for RCW

link

And here for the Salonica Front

link

You have to scroll down to the 1st post to see the mini campaign unfold, we are basically playing a bunch of scenarios around the Reds approaching Odessa, with various rulesets.