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"Kursk - breakdown of tanks by type" Topic


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2,390 hits since 8 Dec 2010
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Comments or corrections?

4th Cuirassier08 Dec 2010 5:33 p.m. PST

I used to have but have lost a link to a site that showed how many of each type of tank the two sides had at Kursk.

Does anyone have this info or a similar link?

Personal logo elsyrsyn Supporting Member of TMP08 Dec 2010 7:49 p.m. PST

Well the Germans started with lots of tanks that ran, and finished with lots that didn't. The Russians did, too, for that matter, but they had more to spend. wink

Sorry – could not resist.

Doug

aercdr Inactive Member08 Dec 2010 10:27 p.m. PST

This should help as a starting point:

link

BigRedBat Supporting Member of TMP09 Dec 2010 12:51 a.m. PST

Wasn't it mostly the Panthers that broke down? ;-)
Simon

Personal logo PzGeneral Supporting Member of TMP09 Dec 2010 5:15 a.m. PST

Panthers and Tigers and Elephants….Oh my….

wink

Personal logo Martin Rapier Supporting Member of TMP09 Dec 2010 7:20 a.m. PST

Maybe this one?

link

Kelly Armstrong09 Dec 2010 8:22 a.m. PST

. . .and Mk IIIs and Mk IVs and Mk IIs and StuGs . . . .

try a google search using terms like "Kursk Tank Strengths"

Nikator09 Dec 2010 10:31 a.m. PST

All tanks break down- except the ones on our gaming tables, which are all in perfect running order and require a special scenario rule to run out of fuel or ammunition. The advantage of US tanks was that they broke down less often and were more easily and rapidly repaired when they did break down. ALL tanks break down.

donlowry10 Dec 2010 1:54 p.m. PST

All tanks break down- except the ones on our gaming tables …

Well, the ones on our tables are the ones that didn't break down on the way. Do you really want to paint up 10 tanks and then only play with 5 of them?

DJButtonup Inactive Member10 Dec 2010 5:49 p.m. PST

I think most folks have 100s of tanks painted up, and getting to play with 5 of them would be a grand day of gaming!

Personal logo elsyrsyn Supporting Member of TMP10 Dec 2010 6:54 p.m. PST

Do you really want to paint up 10 tanks and then only play with 5 of them?

Why not – the Germans did it all the time. wink

Doug

donlowry11 Dec 2010 11:42 a.m. PST

But was it fun for the Germans?

thomalley11 Dec 2010 12:44 p.m. PST

Glantz's book on Kursk has a breakdown in it's appendix.
July 1 numbers are listed as
51-MKII 416-MKIII 377-MKIV 200-MKV 102-MKVI 25-T34
plus 98 command and 245 Assualt guns 1514 total

Breakdown of Russians isn't as good, but it looks like 1/3 are T60/70 most of the rest are T34s.

jms

4th Cuirassier11 Dec 2010 5:18 p.m. PST

thanks jms

I had a feeling there we a number of Lees, Churchills and Matildas at Kursk?

donlowry12 Dec 2010 2:46 p.m. PST

I'm guessing that most of the Lend-Lease tanks were in the north -- if they came by way of Murmansk -- or south -- if they came by way of Persia.

jony663 Supporting Member of TMP21 Dec 2010 7:30 a.m. PST

The is a lot of Pz II
Jon

Personal logo Smokeyroan Supporting Member of TMP21 Dec 2010 1:15 p.m. PST

"Alan's Kursk Page" On of the all time great WWII websites.

Personal logo Mserafin Supporting Member of TMP21 Dec 2010 2:22 p.m. PST

Here is a breakdown of Soviet tanks at Kursk, courtesy of Jack Radey at the CD forums:

). I just came across, thanks to Charles Sharp (Marshal Sharposhnikov), data on Soviet tank units at Kursk. I thought it was so interesting it was worth sharing.
Central Front-
13th Army –
--129 TB – 10 KV-1, 21 T-34, 8 T-70, 10 T-60
--27 Gd TR – 24 KV-1S
--30 Gd TR – 20 KV-1S
--43 TR – 30 T-34/43, 16 T-70
--58 TR – 33 SU-76i
--237 TR – 32 T-34/43, 7 T-70
--1442 SUR – 16 SU-122

48th Army –
--45 TR – 30 M-3 Grant, 9 M-3 Stuart, 8 SU-76
--193 TR – 55 M-3 Grant, 3 SU-76
--229 TR – 38 M-4/A2 Sherman
--1454 SUR – 16 SU-122, 1 T-34/43
--1455 SUR – 15 SU-122, 1 T-34/43
--1540 SUR – 12 SU-152, 1 KV-1S

60th Army –
--150 TB – 40 T-34/43, 22 T-70, 4 T-60

65th Army –
--29 Gd TR – 19 KV-1S
--40 TR – 29 T-34/43, 7 T-70
--84 TR – 30 T-34/43, 3 T-70
--255 TR – 33 T-34/43, 6 T-70

70th Army –
--240 TR – 32 T-34/43, 7 T-70
--251 TR – 31 T-34/43, 7 T-70
--259 TR – 34 T-34/43, 6 T-70

2nd Tank Army –
--3 TC – 122 T-34/43, 70 T-70
--16 TC – 139 T-34/43, 45 T-70, 17 T-60
--11 Gd TB – 44 T-34/43, 10 T-70

Front Reserve –
--9 TC – 125 T-34/43, 68 T-60
--19 TC – 107 T-34/43, 25 T-70, 36 T-60, 19 Matilda or Valentine (2 lb)
--1541 SUR – 12 SU-152, 1 KV-1S

Voronezh Front –
6th Guards Army –
--96 TB – 46 T-34/43, 5 T-70
--230 TR – 7 M-3 Grant, 32 M-3 Stuart
--245 TR – 27 M-3 Grant, 12 M-3 Stuart
--1440 SUR – 12 SU-122, 9 SU-76

7th Guards Army –
--27 Gd TB – 54 T-34/43, 4 T-70
--201 TB – 3 T-34/43, 18 Mk II Matilda, 31 Mk III Valentine
--148 TR – 25 T-34/43, 6 T-70
--167 TR – 33 T-34/43, 11 T-70, 2 T-60
--262 TR – 22 KV-1
--1438 SUR – 12 SU-122, 9 SU-76
--1529 SUR – 12 SU-152, 1 KV-1

38th Army –
--180 TB – 43 T-34/43, 23 T-70, 15 T-60
--192 TB – 31 M-3 Grant, 24 M-3 Stuart

40th Army –
--86 TB – 46 T-34/43, 11 T-70, 15 T-60
--59 TR – 25 T-34/43, 9 T-70
--60 TR – 26 T-34/43, 9 T-70

69th Army –
nichevo

1st Tank Army –
--3 MC – 194 T-34/43, 35 T-70, 2 T-60
--6 TC – 138 T-34/43, 24 T-70, 10 T-60
--31 TC – 152 T-34/43, 30 T-70, 2 T-60

Front Reserves –
--2 Gd TC – 121 T-34/43, 75 T-70, 21 Mk IV Churchill (6 lb)
--5 Gd TC – 106 T-34/43, 66 T-70, 21 Mk IV Churchill (6 lb)

MC = mechanized corps
TC = tank corps
TB = tank brigade
TR = tank regiment
SUR = SU regiment (self propelled gun, or assault gun)

Some of the T-34s might have been T-34/42s, but mostly the later model, considering the combat life of a tank in action. Some of the M-3 Grants were no doubt M-3 Lees. Did it matter, does it now?

Some real weirdies in there, huh? How about a tank regiment solely composed of SU-76i, which were Pzkpfw III or StuG III chassies with a 76L39 mounted on them.

It is worth remembering that these are strengths of units built up and ready for a major action. A snapshot of units in a condition you would not see much of when the bullets and AP rounds started to fly.

If you look closely, you will see many strange things; regiments almost the size of brigades, mostly units of either all Soviet tanks or all Lend Lease, but some mixed. One unit, the 262 TR, has all KVs. Normally this would make it a Guards Tank Regiment, but it isn't. (A Guards tank brigade, by contrast, is one designated Guards for its performance, while a heavy tank regiment, like a rocket unit, got its Guards title from its equipment…)

The 229 TR, equipped with Shermans, is news to me. Likewise note that certain tank regiments have a mixture of tanks and SUs. This was a period of transition, the Soviets had just settled on the final basic structure of the tank corps, and other tank units. The T-60s were hold overs (survivors), soon to be lost, or converted to prime movers.

Enough detail?

Personal logo vtsaogames Supporting Member of TMP22 Dec 2010 5:52 p.m. PST

Wow!

4th Cuirassier23 Dec 2010 3:20 a.m. PST

Wow again! That is fantastic and exactly what I was looking for!

Personal logo Smokeyroan Supporting Member of TMP23 Dec 2010 5:17 p.m. PST

I nominate Mserafin a "Hero of TMP" for his contribution.

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