"Kursk - breakdown of tanks by type" Topic

I used to have but have lost a link to a site that showed how many of each type of tank the two sides had at Kursk.

Does anyone have this info or a similar link?

Well the Germans started with lots of tanks that ran, and finished with lots that didn't. The Russians did, too, for that matter, but they had more to spend.

Sorry – could not resist.

Doug

This should help as a starting point:

link

Wasn't it mostly the Panthers that broke down? ;-)
Simon

Panthers and Tigers and Elephants….Oh my….

Maybe this one?

link

. . .and Mk IIIs and Mk IVs and Mk IIs and StuGs . . . .

try a google search using terms like "Kursk Tank Strengths"

All tanks break down- except the ones on our gaming tables, which are all in perfect running order and require a special scenario rule to run out of fuel or ammunition. The advantage of US tanks was that they broke down less often and were more easily and rapidly repaired when they did break down. ALL tanks break down.

All tanks break down- except the ones on our gaming tables …

Well, the ones on our tables are the ones that didn't break down on the way. Do you really want to paint up 10 tanks and then only play with 5 of them?

I think most folks have 100s of tanks painted up, and getting to play with 5 of them would be a grand day of gaming!

Do you really want to paint up 10 tanks and then only play with 5 of them?

Why not – the Germans did it all the time.

Doug

But was it fun for the Germans?

Glantz's book on Kursk has a breakdown in it's appendix.
July 1 numbers are listed as
51-MKII 416-MKIII 377-MKIV 200-MKV 102-MKVI 25-T34
plus 98 command and 245 Assualt guns 1514 total

Breakdown of Russians isn't as good, but it looks like 1/3 are T60/70 most of the rest are T34s.

jms

thanks jms

I had a feeling there we a number of Lees, Churchills and Matildas at Kursk?

I'm guessing that most of the Lend-Lease tanks were in the north -- if they came by way of Murmansk -- or south -- if they came by way of Persia.

The is a lot of Pz II
Jon

"Alan's Kursk Page" On of the all time great WWII websites.

Here is a breakdown of Soviet tanks at Kursk, courtesy of Jack Radey at the CD forums:

). I just came across, thanks to Charles Sharp (Marshal Sharposhnikov), data on Soviet tank units at Kursk. I thought it was so interesting it was worth sharing.
Central Front-
13th Army –
--129 TB – 10 KV-1, 21 T-34, 8 T-70, 10 T-60
--27 Gd TR – 24 KV-1S
--30 Gd TR – 20 KV-1S
--43 TR – 30 T-34/43, 16 T-70
--58 TR – 33 SU-76i
--237 TR – 32 T-34/43, 7 T-70
--1442 SUR – 16 SU-122

48th Army –
--45 TR – 30 M-3 Grant, 9 M-3 Stuart, 8 SU-76
--193 TR – 55 M-3 Grant, 3 SU-76
--229 TR – 38 M-4/A2 Sherman
--1454 SUR – 16 SU-122, 1 T-34/43
--1455 SUR – 15 SU-122, 1 T-34/43
--1540 SUR – 12 SU-152, 1 KV-1S

60th Army –
--150 TB – 40 T-34/43, 22 T-70, 4 T-60

65th Army –
--29 Gd TR – 19 KV-1S
--40 TR – 29 T-34/43, 7 T-70
--84 TR – 30 T-34/43, 3 T-70
--255 TR – 33 T-34/43, 6 T-70

70th Army –
--240 TR – 32 T-34/43, 7 T-70
--251 TR – 31 T-34/43, 7 T-70
--259 TR – 34 T-34/43, 6 T-70

2nd Tank Army –
--3 TC – 122 T-34/43, 70 T-70
--16 TC – 139 T-34/43, 45 T-70, 17 T-60
--11 Gd TB – 44 T-34/43, 10 T-70

Front Reserve –
--9 TC – 125 T-34/43, 68 T-60
--19 TC – 107 T-34/43, 25 T-70, 36 T-60, 19 Matilda or Valentine (2 lb)
--1541 SUR – 12 SU-152, 1 KV-1S

Voronezh Front –
6th Guards Army –
--96 TB – 46 T-34/43, 5 T-70
--230 TR – 7 M-3 Grant, 32 M-3 Stuart
--245 TR – 27 M-3 Grant, 12 M-3 Stuart
--1440 SUR – 12 SU-122, 9 SU-76

7th Guards Army –
--27 Gd TB – 54 T-34/43, 4 T-70
--201 TB – 3 T-34/43, 18 Mk II Matilda, 31 Mk III Valentine
--148 TR – 25 T-34/43, 6 T-70
--167 TR – 33 T-34/43, 11 T-70, 2 T-60
--262 TR – 22 KV-1
--1438 SUR – 12 SU-122, 9 SU-76
--1529 SUR – 12 SU-152, 1 KV-1

38th Army –
--180 TB – 43 T-34/43, 23 T-70, 15 T-60
--192 TB – 31 M-3 Grant, 24 M-3 Stuart

40th Army –
--86 TB – 46 T-34/43, 11 T-70, 15 T-60
--59 TR – 25 T-34/43, 9 T-70
--60 TR – 26 T-34/43, 9 T-70

69th Army –
nichevo

1st Tank Army –
--3 MC – 194 T-34/43, 35 T-70, 2 T-60
--6 TC – 138 T-34/43, 24 T-70, 10 T-60
--31 TC – 152 T-34/43, 30 T-70, 2 T-60

Front Reserves –
--2 Gd TC – 121 T-34/43, 75 T-70, 21 Mk IV Churchill (6 lb)
--5 Gd TC – 106 T-34/43, 66 T-70, 21 Mk IV Churchill (6 lb)

MC = mechanized corps
TC = tank corps
TB = tank brigade
TR = tank regiment
SUR = SU regiment (self propelled gun, or assault gun)

Some of the T-34s might have been T-34/42s, but mostly the later model, considering the combat life of a tank in action. Some of the M-3 Grants were no doubt M-3 Lees. Did it matter, does it now?

Some real weirdies in there, huh? How about a tank regiment solely composed of SU-76i, which were Pzkpfw III or StuG III chassies with a 76L39 mounted on them.

It is worth remembering that these are strengths of units built up and ready for a major action. A snapshot of units in a condition you would not see much of when the bullets and AP rounds started to fly.

If you look closely, you will see many strange things; regiments almost the size of brigades, mostly units of either all Soviet tanks or all Lend Lease, but some mixed. One unit, the 262 TR, has all KVs. Normally this would make it a Guards Tank Regiment, but it isn't. (A Guards tank brigade, by contrast, is one designated Guards for its performance, while a heavy tank regiment, like a rocket unit, got its Guards title from its equipment…)

The 229 TR, equipped with Shermans, is news to me. Likewise note that certain tank regiments have a mixture of tanks and SUs. This was a period of transition, the Soviets had just settled on the final basic structure of the tank corps, and other tank units. The T-60s were hold overs (survivors), soon to be lost, or converted to prime movers.

Enough detail?

Wow!

Wow again! That is fantastic and exactly what I was looking for!

I nominate Mserafin a "Hero of TMP" for his contribution.