"The Top Ten Things I don't Like About FOW" Topic

Anger management course not working out well then?

Sigh… Not so much.

Oh, I'm just playing theminiaturespage. You know I love you.

Three stifles is an explosion?

tables and charts, doesn't mean you've written anything.

That still leaves quite a lot of WWII rule sets out there, if we include all scales, services, and theaters.

But no, that's not what this thread is about. It's about socially retarded misfits trying to come across as experts ripping on other's work and interests

So you didn't bother reading the thread, then. Good for you.

The following was written while watching the number of stifles I've received explode!

You must understand, just because you sit in your basement jerkin it to tables and charts, doesn't mean you've written anything.

This thread isn't about having rational and constructive criticism of any game. All of us that play the game realize it's not perfect, nor is it a simulation. Was never meant to be. If that's what you're looking for, play another game you morons.

But no, that's not what this thread is about. It's about socially retarded misfits trying to come across as experts ripping on other's work and interests. It's about that chubby little know-it-all standing on the sidelines at the hobby store every weekend, who doesn't quite smell right, squinting at the gaming that's going on. Eventually he walks over and snorts something like "Boy, you know they never really would have done that." He may possibly drop the tellingly observant line, "That artillery should be miles away. What's it doing on the table." And after about 30 seconds to a minute of everyone looking at him like he farted, which is fair since he just mouth-farted nonsense, he walks over to the Warhammer guys and drops his $0.25 USD USD worth of knowledge about ancient battles on them.

Yes, that guy and this thread is full of, as Buzz Lightyear would say: sad, strange little men. So, you chubby little nerds keep reading Osprey books, memorize the statistics and figures in the Encyclopedia of 20th Century Tanks, and spend 8 to 10 hours playing realistic war games with whoever you can get to sit down with you in your orgy of numbers and nonsense.

For me, and guys like me, we will continue to collect and paint models of armies we love, build terrain to play on, and play the game that we enjoy that facilitates maintaining old relationships and creating new ones.

In other words, you keep bitching. I'm going to keep playing.

U mad?

"Have they? Prove it.

Also, You should know, all of you **Expletive-Deleted** are gonna pay. You are the ones who are the **Expletive-Deleted**. We're gonna **Expletive-Deleted** your mothers while you cry like little **Expletive-Deleted**. Once we find all you Flames of War hating **Expletive-Deleted** who are making fun of Flames of War, we're gonna make you eat our **Expletive-Deleted**, then **Expletive-Deleted** out your **Expletive-Deleted**, which is made up of our **Expletive-Deleted** that we made you eat, then eat their **Expletive-Deleted**, which is made up of our **Expletive-Deleted** that we made 'em eat.

You got that?"

Comradetexas,

I am not sure how you felt at that moment. Could you enlighten us all please? ;)

I do love my Strelk blobs and heroic blobs they are.

This FOW hate thread is NOTHING compared to the GW hatred thread that is over 668 posts.

There will always be things that will not satisfy folks regarding this game.

We can expound our ideas/rationale that would make a PhD dissertation look like an ASL tome.

I believe one must be able to take all factors into account, the positive and the negative.

I think the question for all players / haters/ fanbois/ what have you is this:

"What are you willing to live with in that particular ruleset.?"

This is really not a revelation. It's just a question for people to answer for themselves.

"What are you willing to live with in that particular ruleset.?"

The answer to that question involves opportunity….

…not fire, but breadth of opponents.

More choice is more fussy.

Beggars can't be choosers.

>>> 1. Price increases. It isn't that the tanks are too expensive, per se, but that they are double what they were a decade ago (while the rest of the 15mm WWII hobby has increased at a much slower rate that might actually have to do with materials and labor costs).

Homey don't *pay* dat. Alternative sources, Ebay, yadda, yadda.

>>> 2. Force List Merry-go-Round. If you thought GW rotated Codexes too quickly, FoW will have your head spinning.

Homey don't play dat. Most of the time. My Churchill Squadron in Italy PDF for use with Festung Europa is still good for me, even though it has been Officially deemed invalid for tournament play.

>>> 3. Now you see it, now you don't. What Mid-War? We don't produce Mid-War!

Huh? I believe they do. Plus they did. Which is all tat matters. The original books still work, and the models can be obtained (see above).

>>> 4. Infantry sculpts on the decline. Already described by others.

Alternative sources (see above), plus I bought the good ones the firs time around.

>>> 5. I r FoW-cat; This r siriuz game! The mixture of casual rules and book-slamming historical wargaming types makes the FoW "community" even less predictable than the 40k crowd.

You can ignore the stupider stuff. You just have to work harder at it nowadays.

>>> 6. Schizo marketing. "We don't mind you using any 15mm WWII models in play, but our firing squads are ready for anyone who mentions this on our forum."

So? There are more workarounds appearing on the forum than there are untolerated mentions.

>>> 7. Europe is the World! Pacific? Japanese? Don't be silly.

Don't have to be official, if that's what you like. I don't think the Pacific per se makes for very interesting scenarios, but the CBI theater does. And you know what? You can play it!

>>> 8. War is war, and this game is neither. As already mentioned, the game's forcelists often have little or nothing to do with actual formations, asset usage, or equipment availability dates.

No game is war. Next?

>>> 9. "What does this unit do, again?" Less a problem now, but there have been models in their line that were entirely absent from the forcelists. I like having British motorcycles, mind you…

I have had them for years. Used them, too. Now they're coming back.

>>> 10. "But I'd have to deal with that so-and-so to get any." Another problem that has supposedly cured itself, but the US distributor for BF/FoW used to be extremely unpleasant to deal with at the personal and professional level. A shop should not need high levels of intestinal fortitude just to *order* product.

The Maelstrom kerfuffle is irritating. But see alternative sources, above.

Amicalement,

Allen

I think kerfuffle might be my new favorite word. As in "race kerfuffle." Thank you Community.

The local shop that carries FoW is filled players who won't talk to you because you are not in their clique and don't even like each other, a clerk at the counter too busy playing with his toys to help you out and a creepy old man in the corner (shop owner) who tells everyone his 1940's style theories on race and is rumored to have unnatural relations with farm animals.
It all just seems so "dirty".

"The local shop that carries FoW is filled players who won't talk to you because you are not in their clique and don't even like each other, a clerk at the counter too busy playing with his toys to help you out and a creepy old man in the corner (shop owner) who tells everyone his 1940's style theories on race and is rumored to have unnatural relations with farm animals.
It all just seems so "dirty"."

What the H does this have to do with anything. Don't play there if your not comfortable. This adds nothing to the discussion. So you don't like the store or the people that play there that isn't a reason to dismiss the game nor does it explain what is wrong with it or why you should dislike it.

They probably feel the same way about you. You can either ask if someone is willing to play a game with you and be nice about it, or you can just be as anti-social and continue to deride those who don't come rushing over to you as you enter the LGS with a free chair, a warm towel and ready to fluff your pillows for you.

Not trying to be mean but that message doesn't have anything to do with what you don't like about the game. It has everything to do with how you don't like your LGS.

I didn't notice Connard's use of "kerfuffle" when I posted mine, or I wouldn't have duplicated it. There's always "foofarangus".

Allen

Foofarangus? I like it. Darling, make a note of it; I want to use it in conversation.

Given that there is now FOW Vietnam (and don't think the FOW Pacific guys didn't bitch about that…they did…), I can't wait until the Ultimate FOW Hate Fest begins.

I refer, of course, to FOW Napoleonics.

I can't wait for the carnage. Oh yes….the bloody, bloody carnage.

:)

"What the H does this have to do with anything. "

Everything.

Excellent alternative to FoW:

"War Games Rules 1925-1950: Wargames Rules For All Arms Land Warfare From Platoon To Battalion Level" published June 1988 (not the earlier 1970's versions) by Wargames Research Group and still available at very reasonable prices on eBay.

Same figure representation ratio as FoW (1:1) so you can use your FoW armies, and a whole lot more realistic while remaining very playable – the combat resolution system is actually simpler and more straightforward than FoW (e. g. no silly fantasy-based "saving rolls")! Plus, rules for ALL WW2 theaters as well as vehicle data and unit organizations for ALL major combatants are INCLUDED in the one AFFORDABLE (under $15.00 USD) rulebook – NO series of "supplements" priced at $50 USD each that you also have to buy if you want to actually play the game.

FoW'ers, try actually playing the WRG 1925-1950 rules a couple of times before you dismiss them.

Brian

*Sniff sniff*

Ah, old thread smell.

Did this REALLY need to get resurrected from the dead?

What is that stale smell?

Ahhh WRG 1925-50. I played them 30 years ago, when still in short pants. Lots of water (& rulesets) have gone under the bridge since then. A OK set of rules but there are plenty of better ones these days.

Wow…. you know, at first I thought this was going to be a horrible thread. I am pleased that there is actually one or two (kidding) halfway decent posts with real reason and thought behind them…

As a fanboi, I know my opinion is slanted… yet I am going to bite on this thread too.

Some very good things were said, yet… start a thread on ANY other game and you would see the same results… haters, lovers and meh…

You either like it or hate it and the OP should be ashamed.. this was nothing more than *another* plug at why I hate FoW… loosely veiled behind a supposed "constrictive" thread.

I have to say though… there must really be something to the game for so many people to be haters… I mean, come on, there are a LOT of crappy games out there (in my opinion) and you don't see hordes of haters going off on those games….

So let me ask the community this…. Why FoW? I mean really… why is FoW the anti-christ of WW2 minni gaming? Why have so many people chosen this game to vent their rage…

It isn't the best (OMG, did I say that?) but by far, it is very far from the worst. As a point of refrence, I like Under Fire for skirmish games and Squad Leader for larger games… very easy, very detailed games.

I will conceed that some of you put out VERY SOLID lists… my particular #1 worst is the real lack of a solid scale… as an "engineer type" this kills me. I have been able to convince my self that these "ranges" are "effective ranges" extrapolated for a tournament size table top. Even though everything it 1:1 pretty much, for these scales to be reflective, we really should be using 10 or 6mm stuff.

I draw a comparison to Napoleonics… I use 15mm with a ground scale of .015"/1'… where one man = 40… I look at FoW this way…. and it all comes into place. So you have guys here complaining about scale, yet Napoleonics (where the truest grognards are to be found) have absolutely NO real scale/time rationalle… the only thing in scale are the ranges… usually.. but the rest is just crap…

So, going back to the haters? What gives? Go find somewhere else to hate. We like of beer and pretzles game. Were you so let down by it that it brike your heart and turned you into a hater? Did you lose huge sums of money only to realize "OMG, I don't like this!"….

Reallly, what gives? Haters gotta hate?

So let me ask the community this…. Why FoW? I mean really… why is FoW the anti-christ of WW2 minni gaming? Why have so many people chosen this game to vent their rage…

IMO it is because it is popular and to make matters worse there are :hush: tournaments :shock: :O

In the past DBM was knocked on this forum because of IMO exactly the same reasons and now Field of Glory gets the same treatment.

If you want to discuss either FoW or FoG without getting masses of people whining go to the system specific sites.

Unfortunately, they find you there too.

Not many Tankz in the Pacific Theatre though…

I'd love to see the 2000-point army lists of page after page of infantry with only one unit of light tanks, and for Americans maybe a Sherman or two.

The number one problem with miniatures gaming today is fragmentation. Everyone is totally committed to doing their own thing. So if you want to go home and play your favorite set of rules, and struggle to get even one person to play them, go ahead.

Personally, I'm THRILLED that there's a set of historical rules that LOTS of people want to play, and where I can get a game in a couple times a week without begging. Sure, I'd like to play IABSM3, but NO ONE WANTS TO PLAY A SET OF RULES WITH A GOOFY NAME THEY'VE NEVER HEARD OF WHEN THERE'S A DOZEN PEOPLE WHO WANT TO PLAY FLAMES OF WAR!!! With all due respect to TFL, their sense of humor is both lame and a sales killer.

Meanwhile, another dozen flames of war games are being played in every time zone of the planet, including islands in the pacific I've never heard of.

Give it up – it's flames of war, or solo play.

Thanks for whoever dug up this old thread. Some of my best stuff is here.

'With all due respect to TFL, their sense of humor is both lame and a sales killer.'

Disagreed. I find TFL's rules to be fun, enjoyable, and period-flavored. And their humor to be quite chuckle-inducing as well.

'Give it up – it's flames of war, or solo play.'

Augh! No! Bad! Bad wargamer! That's the mindset of a certain other company that produces wargaming, and it's detrimental to the hobby at large.

Certainly the correct attitude infinite array. I quite agree with you. Though I love the way FoW is so universal and I get a game set up just about anywhere I go in the US, I'd still always want to see other rules and miniatures companies out there as alternative options..and succeeding! It drives competition and keeps all across the board work their hardest to improve their offerings. In that way I totally agree with you going to a single source is "detrimental to the hobby at large."

So why do people hate FoW anyway and why do the tanks fight hubcap to hubcap and the miniatures cost so much for such poor quality and why is the sky blue and are the Mayans really right about 12-21-2012?

So why do people hate FoW anyway

Jealousy for the most part I reckon. But then some people are also just natural douche bags. Honestly, I don't always understand the negative infatuation thing that some exhibit here.

and why do the tanks fight hubcap to hubcap

Not a problem in my FoW games…but in other threads here the discussion of ground scales not always being 1:1 to model scale in most WWII tactical mini wargames may have some impact on the matter.

and the miniatures cost so much for such poor quality

BF miniature prices are above average for sure (the new ready out of the box buildings being a big exception IMO), but then many believe the quality is also quite high and thus a comparative value. Personally I'm pumped about the newer non-BF plastic options rolling out in ever increasing options these days.

and why is the sky blue

Something to do with the refraction of the Sun's light rays coming through the atmosphere.

and are the Mayans really right about 12-21-2012?

So far most these "Doomsday" fellas seem to be getting it wrong. No reason to freak out and expect that the Mayans will break that trend.

Here is the deal.

I don't hate or dislike FOW.

Why must the game be played (as far as I have seen, at numerous conventions and in most photos on the Internet) "As Though They Were In A Motor Pool". Why cant it be as per real tactical warfare? Spread out!

I come 20 years as a U.S. Army, Armored Cavalry Scout.
Spacing of vehicles was a minimum of 100 meters.
If you were on a road march at ether at night or moving through a buildup area it could be reduced to 50 meter intervals.

So do you see my and others complaints of what we have observed?

I have noticed that even Infantry, are lined up like it's a change of command ceremony.
Unless it is a mass charge Soviet's forces meeting up on the west side of Stalingrad, or North Koreans or Communist Chines during the Korean war.

Talk about what should be a target rich environment.

Hell there should be something in there that say. "If any unit gets less then 2" from another unit there is a bonus to the unit shooting at them.

Fine, the game has brought new gamers in to the world of Historical Wargaming, but if your going to do it, do it right.

11th ACR,

It's fine to say it does not look right to you. It does not look right on a figure to table ratio. But that's not what the game is exactly representing as there is rarely a 1:1 model to ground scale correlation in any WWIi miniature wargame system. It's just a function of having toys on the table top in a model scale (15mm, 1:100) that is really not optimal for this level of tactical wargaming but do look great unto themselves. Just take the basic infantry team stand for FoW or any other WW2 that use mourned teams. Of course the figures are far too close together for proper team dispersion in general.

It's just an abstraction that should not be taken as a litteral depiction. Think of the individual models as being just "counters" taking up less real battlefield space than the physical model does. If that does not do it for you, then maybe as a guy who knows what right "looks" like you should jump in with your local FoW gaming group and show them "how it's done." I'm betting your local FoW gaming group would love to have a distinguished veteran like yourself helping to improve the look and feel of their gaming experiences.

Allons, VB

It is the scale thing again…. there was a thread around about FoW being in 6mm with the scales they use for 15mm and everything "felt" right… VB is right… it is just representation.

As a fanboi… I hope I don't get shot for this…
If you are that hard up… combine Squad Leader (convert the ranges there) and play SL wiht the FoW models… it works wonderfully and fullfills any necessity to be EXACT… For me… I love FoW… I am willing to accept the abstractions there (which really is only ranges/scale)… the rest is awesome.

I love that Flames of War is:

easy to play, difficult to master

well supported with miniatures, terrain, modeling supplies, paint, etc. I love one-stop shopping.

Fun to play. So many concepts are subtlety in the game and I never get bogged down in the minutia.

Quick to play. Most games last 2-3 hours. Perfect for a week day game night.

Models are relatively cheap. Compared to all my other hobbies, FoW is by far the most affordable. Video game systems, golf clubs, guns, ammo. All cost way more.

Tons of entertainment for my dollar. Not just in gaming, but in collecting, army building, designing my own tokens/base labels, etc.

I have some thoughts to add in this thread.

Thoughts on Tank parking lots:

i've seen and played Battleground ww2 and have seen tanks hub to hub,

i have also played BKC and have seen tanks run hub to hub,

i have played rapid fire and have seen tanks run hub to hub,

i have played battlefield evolution world at war and seen tanks hub to hub,

i've played battlefront ww2 and seen tanks hub to hub,

i've played crossfire and seen tanks hub to hub,

I've played I aint been shot Mum and seen hub to hub

I've played fireball forward and seen hub to hub.

Should I go on?

Hub to hub not something that only happens in FoW, it is something players do in every rules system, to maximize shots in defense of or the attack of a small area when miniature wargaming. it has nothing to do with the rules. in FoW your tanks can be anywhere from four to eight inches apart from each other which is plenty of room to spread out avoid the bunching if desired, its player choice. same thing happens in others rules system even if there is no cohesion. I want to guard this road or that clump of trees so i cram three four tanks into this tiny area to max out my effectiveness. i have never seen a game system that said your tanks have to be so far apart, because that would not be "historically accurate". I have even seen this in smaller scales like 6mm and 10mm.

Also it isn't the rules but the number of figures on the table. we run into this problem at all our big group games. we will have 6-10 players over and ever one our 12 by 8 foot table you can end up with end to end figures. oh did i mention that we play more than just FoW and this can be a problem no matter that the rules, ww2 or other? play with fewer troops if you don't like a crowded game, you don't have to show off the whole collection. or play on a bigger board, just dont knock FoW like it is the only system where this happens.

Thoughts on infantry saves:

in FoW it is a mechanic that is in place to prevent infantry from getting annihilated and represents those hits only causing minor or minimal casualties to the team that was hit. ie you hit the team, but failed to make it combat ineffective. maybe you only lightly wounded a couple guys and their still fighting or only killed one private who nobody much cared for so the other members of the team keep fighting.

Other rule systems have functions in place that represent this as well. for example in BCK you remove hits at the end of your turn. world at war has saves, in battlefront ww2 you roll to see, roll to hit, roll to see what you did to the target, then the target or figure near it might roll moral. FoW, 2 rolls when shooting, BG, up to up to four rolls to shoots. most games its at least two rolls. a roll to hit and a roll to see what the hit did.

in FoW its just you have to give up control of the dice and let you opponent roll to see what the hit did. Your hit might not have been effective.

this is also a great way to keep everyone playing even when it is not your turn. there is nothing worse than a game that takes all night to play and half the night you sit there waiting for paint to dry as your opponent does all the rolling and figuring out of complex charts and tables.

thoughts on rolling a hand full of dice:

isn't this one of the core functions of gaming? rolling dice is fun and is central to all gaming, plus lots of ww2 games require you to roll a ton of dice. BKC is that way for sure, and so can others. so what if you roll lots of dice?

there are times in FoW where you might roll a higher than average number of dice or an insane number of dice, but that is the exception not the rule, most of the time it is about ten per platoon. which isn't that bad or unreasonable.

thoughts on ranges:

if the ranges were accurately proportional to figure scale most ww2 rules systems would be unplayable. you would need more table than most of us have garage or dinning room space. The game has to function on the game space that most of us have available. Which means if the ranges where accurately proportional the game wouldn't be fun because 88s could hit and kill anything on the board.

thoughts on V3 and supplements:

holy sweet lord of the admiralty, a company updated their rule system to fix problems, stream line a the rules and make them more user friendly. how dare they, we must revolt and a gripe. who do they think they are anyway?

this complaint is absolute garbage. all good games that are popular go through updates and errata because inevitably shortcomings in the rules are identified after years of play by a variety of gamers. a revision might end up being required because otherwise you will have to print 50 pages of FAQ and errata, learn it and file the loose pages with forum answers to the back your rules. I'd rather have revised rules in a nice book.
if you get the occasional revision then when you go to Historicon or move to a new town you find out that other players, or maybe you, never got the full errata and you play the game differently. or a rule isn't clear enough so you interpret they way you want because your a cheese head and want the win. pretty soon there are all these house rules because no rules aren't perfect.

this is same for supplements, as the rules have been updated or errata issued BF needs to release revised supplements to keep them current so that the game continues to work for the players. Games that don't do this bog down as you try to mesh the supplement with the errata. It ends up being a square peg in a round whole issue.

plus as the BF team researches the war they try to bring the community new books that cover new theaters, battles or campaigns. just like other rules systems due with their supplements.

BF also gives you and in depth history and new companies to run based upon their research. This research is extensively investigated, not a copy paste of wikipedia article on the topis. a lot of hard work goes into those books, from the history to the graphic design. $50 USD is not that bad of a price when you consider this. The release of new books or revised books is not some evil plan that BF hatched in a bunker 50 miles below mordor.

again…other popular game systems do similar things except their supplements are about 1/4 the length of a FoW supplement, they are all black and white or with limited color, some pictures, low quality diagrams, and little graphic design and they cost you $25 USD to buy a pdf that you gave to print yourself. so let me do the math, add 4 carry the two. so if supplement was the length of a battle front book (around 200 pages instead of 50) it would cost $100 USD, plus you would have to use a $15 USD ream of paper, $40 USD worth of ink, and a $7 USD binder. oh and it is still a black and white MSword document. sounds to me like the other supplement is the real rip off and the FoW supplement is a great value.

Plus if a game hasn't revised its rules or issued supplements in the last ten years its probably has nothing to do with it being a perfect rule system and has everything to do with it being unpopular and too cumbersome. so if the rules you play haven't been update maybe its because only a few people play them or the company doesn't exist anymore. or maybe you scared them away with all your trolling and thats why the rules have been relegated to the old tattered cardboard bust box section of your local shop.

thoughts on cost:
no one should be complaining about the book costs and the figure costs, you are not required to buy BF figures or all the books to play the game. i have never bought all the FoW book releases. I have also never bought all the supplements to other gaming systems I play. i buy the ones that interest me. you can do the same thing. no one from BF is making you buy those books or making you buy their figures.

i just shake my head when people troll and complain about the cost of BF models and then complain they don't have good sculpts. if you don't like the sculpts and your not planning on buying their figures, why are you complaining about the price?

I think most their stuff looks great and yes you will pay more for it, but you don't have too buy their figures. i can't always afford all BF figures, i have figures from a half dozen different companies and you now what, unlike 40K BF is okay with that.

does BF have perfect sculpts, no. but name a company that does.

Command Decision is cheap if you are in the OG army, but they do have some funky infantry and some of their vehicles look pancaked, but they also have some really nice stuff.

Peter Pig has some great look figures, but again some other there stuff doesn't look that good and some of the infantry can look just as cartoonish as some of the BF stuff, plus they have a limited vehicle range. Once its all said and done i pay almost as much if not sometimes as much or more than i do for BF infantry when I buy PP.

FiB has some great stuff and not so great stuff, prices are decent.

PSC great tanks and a great value, but not so great infantry.

True North great prices, limited range, and not the greatest sculpts.

BF has some great stuff and some not so great stuff, but I can't think of another company that has a range as extensive as theirs. I cold see complaining if the sculpts where junk and you ha to buy them, but again you don't. infact if you don't want to play FoW in 15mm you don't have to, play it with 10mm or 6mm if you want.

Look many of us will easily depart with $400 USD for figures in a single shot multiple times a years. so the really question is quality vs quantity. do you want more figures or better looking figures? I think some of us get greedy and don't realize how much money it takes to run a business and make figures and just expect companies to give figures to us at cost.

for those of us who can't afford that, its okay not to own $5,000 USD worth of 15mm toys, BF is not making you buy large amounts of their figures. you can play the game with a smaller collection and if you want to spend less and get more you can go to another company and no one will tell you it not allowed in a FoW game.

companies with good sculpts charge more. if BF really had bad sculpts through out their whole line then they wouldn't be in business no matter how much marketing they did. Sometimes i think the trolls only go after BF because deep down inside they really want to buy them and wish the price came down. so they complain hoping it does.

final thoughts

sometimes when i read all the negative comments about FoW i just can't help
but think for some guys it has less to do with the rules and more to do with FoW's popularity. for years you have played other ww2 systems in a different scale (6mm, 10mm, 20mm). for years you have had a hard time finding a crowd larger than the same group you always play with to collect and play the rules. now you are bitter because lots of people play FoW and it would require you to abandon the other system, possibly rebase your figures and start their ww2 collection over in 15mm.

look these negative comments about FoW are ridiculous, everything trolled about on FoW are things seen in other rule systems, those who are troll hardly ever say which rule system they play or acknowledge or critique the short comings in those rules in their posts.

My question is why are you so critical of games that others enjoy playing? why have you made it your mission to turn others the off to gaming with your negative and critical attitude? Why if you despise FoW so much do you feel the need to acknowledge its existence and start arguments online with people you don't know? Why are you wasting yours and everyone else's time? Why are you so bitter about FoW?

as far as i have seen you don't see the FoW community going onto the other ww2 forums and trashing those rule systems or the AARs or the companies, but the many sure like to come here and trash all the hard work and fun that FoW players have.

i cant image what it would be like to play with some of you. no wonder the game systems you hold dear doesn't attract newer blood. you just eat the goats as the cross they bridge.

maybe that is why FoW is popular, its easy to learn, fun to play rules with supportive positive community who encourages its fellow players, and the bonus is a supportive company that gives you a great ww2 game, great customer service and great products. if it wasn't, the game would not be in print and it would be hard to find players or miniatures for it.

remember we play games to simulate war, paint figures, learn history, and most importantly have fun with our friends and fellow gamers. if you can't have fun with your friends you have missed the point of gaming. maybe that is what makes the FoW Hobby different from what you think the Hobby is.

So what are the top 10 things people hate about FoW?

IMO it is because it is popular and to make matters worse there are :hush: tournaments :shock: :O

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I'm not sure that (tournament use) is much of the reason – some people like tournaments, some people don't – I don't have interest in playing with very competitive people and some of them with their "Test" matches and national colours being awarded do to be frank sound a bit silly but if that makes them happy. I do dislike as has happened for some rules I play the rule designers being asked to change the official rules to make them a better set for tournament gamers – rather let the latter sort out their own rules for the tournaments

I must confess I find it odd that people are putting the 'doom on you' onto BF for having the audacity to release a third edition in 12 years, and then complain how awful this is.

If you'd bought the 1st edition rules, you'd have got a free 2nd edition rule book, and will get a free 3rd edition rule book. In 7 years time you're likely to get a free 4th edition rulebook.

How many 'classic' wargames companies offer free upgrades from version to version. I look at WRG and DBA/M – what version of those are we on now, and how much have people paid over the years for upgraded rules?

Say what you want about BF, but they seem keen to ensure that if you want to, you only ever have to buy one set of their rules. Personally, I think thats pretty classy.

as a wise podcast broadcaster once said, "stay classy FoW", and it looks like they listened.

I read the first post or two then just skiped here to the end to post my two cents worth. I just do not understand this, or any other post for that matter, that talks about what you don't like. I would think energy and time would be much better invested in talking about mutual interests than banding together against things you dislike. If you took all the time that everyone has collectively spend typing and reading you could have painted several new armies.

I like flames of war and I make jokes about some other rule systems I have played in comparison with friends, but it would never cross my mind to make a post like this. I really don't care whether any of you play FOW or not. I really don't care that you hate it and think it sucks. That is your opinion and yes you have a right to make a post that says "The top then things I don't like about FOW", but ask yourself this: Why did you make this post really? What purpose does it serve and what are you looking to get out of it?

Why not make post in a topic area for something you do like and share ideas for making the experience of that game better? Have some great conversations about neat things you have painted or great tactical decisions you made and make your community stronger. Inflamatory posts and topics do not make YOUR gaming experience better. That seems like such a better investment of all this negative energy from both sides. All topics like this just boggle my mind in any media I see them in.

Inevitably when someone makes a post in a forum, they say as much, if not more, about themselves than any point they wish to make about the subject at hand.

VB