"What do musketeers do during Push of Pike?" Topic

So we understand that when two regiments of foote closed to melée the pikewoukd begin to engage one another. I assume this was a slow and steady, measured action, not an impetuous charge of pikes, so they continue to close and thrust as they saw an advantage against an enemy, and after a while they'd be intertwined and it'd be a bit of a scrum.

While thus is going on, what are the musketeers doing? Swinging muskets like clubs? Weilding cheap swords? Standing back and hurling insults or hurling lead?

I've trouble seeing them as active as the Spanish sword-and-buckler men, but also expect them to support their pikes in SOME way they'd appreciate.

I've often wondered that too. I imagine it it would depend on the period and the ratio of pike to shot.

I can think of three options (hypothetical mind you)

option 1) they retire to the center or back of the pike block offering morale support, and engaging in hand to hand combat only in the scrum

2) Fight against the enemy musketeers at the flanks of the pike blocks. If victorious hit the sides of the pike block

3) Exchange close range fire with the muskteers of the other pike block on the flanks and if force them to retire open fire on the sides of the opposing pike block.

Thats my two unworthy cents

..sit around, play cards, make rude remarks, barrack thew referee, watch the Totty…

At Lützen 1632, if I remember correctly, infantry under swedish comand marched up close to enemy infantry, fired salvoes and then went in with their swords and I assume that this was coordinated with the pikes in the brigade. I have gotten the impression though that infantry tactics (especially pikes tactics) at many occasions were more aggressive in the TYW than in the ECW and I think this has alot to do with the soldiers level of trainning. I don't have many sources for this though so don't get to upset with me if your oppinion differs on this.

Tea Break – it's thirsty work carrying a musket around

20thmaine – you got there before me!

"and after a while they'd be intertwined and it'd be a bit of a scrum"

I cannot see pikemen doing this, nor can I recall any account suggesting this happened. Surely combat happened at push of pike, a pike length more or less between combatatants. Once one side gave way the musketeers could fall on with musket butt or sword. Before that the musketeers surely continued firing.

The muskets were very heavy match lock beasts, and therefore made a formidable club. It would seem to me that depending on the elan of the unit that the shot would attempt to join in to the fray or at least try to keep other units from outflanking the pike they supported. Considering the amount of time it took to load and fire the match lock I doubt at such close range there would be very little point blank shooting into the massed enemy pike.

Fire into opposing sleeves of shotte, I would think. I would think that the shotte kept back several yards to fire at each other. Or else closed with blade and clubbed musket on the other shotte.

To the front there should not be sufficient space to take part in the fighting unless it gets real desperate. I assume detachements were used on both sides, but are not sure on that one.

At Ceresole 1544, both the French and Imperial pikeblocks used the tactics of putting arquebus in the second or third rank of the block to shoot the opposite frontmen. It was a slaughter where both sides lost their front ranks over and over. Here they were fully integrated in the "melee".

After 1544 the real "push of pikes" became rare.

After 1544 the real "push of pikes" became rare.

Puster, what do you base that on? That is not what I experienced in the some of the sources I've read.

They went clubbing!

At least at Naseby.

At Edgehill the push of pike was apparently indecisive for some units so both fell back a little and shot at each other for the rest of the afternoon. James II remarked that this was most unusual.

>Puster, what do you base that on?
Perhaps I just missed the major engagements, or its because the units became smaller.

To my definition, "push of pikes" means a lasting engagement between two units of pikes (with assorted cc or shot). From the Burgundian wars to Ceresole this usually led to heavy losses on both sides, sometimes with one side becoming slaughtered (at Pavia to the men). The actual "push of pikes" was made to disrupt the enemy formation, to followup with specialists for the actual slaughter. picture

I am not aware of later engagements where the decision was made by this "push of pike", or where close combat lasted (like at Ceresole) for hours until a unit finally succumbed and was annihilated. The reason may well be that shot played a far greater role and any large close packed formation would be shot to pieces before it could be worn down by hand.

Imho the "push of pike" for TYW or ECW engagements is as misleading a name as "Renaissance" for the era.

But there is certainly a lot of knowledge out there that I fail to have, so I am glad if you have examples of later actions that qualify to my definition, or just another definition of the term that does work for later engagements.

Benburb 1646 was decided at push of pike. Other factors to note one side had longer pikes and its shot was instructed not to give fire until "push of pike". The other side was anihilated. I'm sure you will get other examples.

Stay out of the way.

Write a stern letter to the local newspaper.

More examples would be nice…less hilarity too.

it's probably the hemp in the matchcord

If you're trained and paid to be a musketeer (which you obviously think requires a lot more brains and dexterity than a brute with a pike does) – and you don't have the pikeman's armor – or the ability to keep your opponent at more than arm's length – you're not going to wade into really unpleasant and face-to-face hand-to-hand combat. You're going to pull back a few paces and do what you are paid to do – protect the flanks of your pikes by taking potshots at the enemy musketeers. But since you know that the pikes are expected to win or lose the engagement (and who will get all the credit if they win – but won't be around to help cover your butt if they lose), you're not going to do that particularly energetically either.

Monluc wrote shot had a distinct dislike for hand-to-hand combat. My guess they fired at each other.

If you're trained and paid to be a musketeer (which you obviously think requires a lot more brains and dexterity than a brute with a pike does) – and you don't have the pikeman's armor – or the ability to keep your opponent at more than arm's length – you're not going to wade into really unpleasant and face-to-face hand-to-hand combat.

Untrue. Reading period accounts of combat helps.

Here's one example, Lieutenant Colonel Muschamp, circa 1631:

I sufferred not my muskettiers to give their volleyes till I came within Pistol-shot of the enemy, at which time I gave order to the first rancks to discharge at once, and after them the other three: which done we fell pell mell into their ranckes, knocking them downe with the stocke of the musket and our swords.

In any event, as Sir James Turner pointed out (and he fought in several major battles in the English Civil War), "the business very oft comes not to push of Pike," meaning the action was generally settled by musketry alone. However, he immediately adds that when the affair was not settled by fire alone, naturally the pikemen "are very serviceable." Note Turner does not claim that the pikes do all of the close combat or even most of it -- not surprising considering that only about 1/3 of the men were armed with pikes. A regiment of 600 men is not going to stand idly by as only 200 of the rankers on each side fight it out with the pike.

Caldwells Rangers is correct of course -- when large units of pikes would fight it out with only small sleeves of shot in the early to mid 16th C., the shot were less engaged in the battle (if only because they were present in smaller numbers). But even then, they would fight it out to the best of their ability.

I reckon they'd act as cheerleaders for the pikes, standing about 10 feet, apart hurling abuse, swinging their muskets, pointing their (cheap) swords and generally posturing in a "come on if you're hard enough" type of way until either side's pike block wins the push, after which they'll acclaim the victory or run as appropriate.