"Tiger II versus Abrams" Topic

Does the Tiger have zero chance to survive?

This old chestnut. I guess if you dropped it on the Abrahms….

I would say not much chance at all, that's why they use Abrahms nowdays and not King Tigers.

G.

Maybe if the Tiger got the M1 in the rear hull, from an ambush, while sitting still, and the M1 wasn't moving too much. As soon as the Tiger is forced to maneuver however, it's life expectancy drops precipitously, since once it breaks down it will be easy shooting for the M1…

Damon.

Butter…meet the hot knife.

Didn't an Abrams get taken out by an RPG recently?

I concur with Garand. There was an Abrams damaged by a Tandem Warhead RPG (a Warhead Modernized to burn through Shaped charge resistant armors like Chobham) fired into the lighter side Armor of the Abrams. Crew survived fine and it did not prevent the Abrams from being able to rotate turret or fire IIRC.

I suspect at anything other than point blank behind firing an AP shot the Tiger II would have exactly 0 chance.

The Abrams firing a 120mm Hypervelocity Sabot could probably shoot through two tigers stacked nose-to-tail while rolling at 50kph over rough terrain at 1200m in the dark during a snowstorm.

Nothing is certain in tank-tank combat. I believe the 88L71 is quite capable of penetrating the rear armour of an Abrams, what I'm not sure about is at what range it can penetrate the side armour (if at all). No hope for the front obviously, apart from a lucky track/optics or whatever hit.

Tiger is probably toast if the Abrams hits it from any angle or sensible range.

Soooo, if the Tiger gets a rear (or possibly flank) shot, then yes, it could come out on top. Just like that T-34 which knocked out three Tiger IIs.

Ramming might be another possibility, the method Lt Gorman used to bag 'his' Tiger II with a Sherman 75.

There was a story from the first Gulf War(I think it was in the briefing booklet of the game Phase Line Smash) where an Abrams had got stuck in some marshy ground. The unit needed to destroy it in place and move on to the objective so another Abrams fired several rounds at the rear to knock it out. The last round made the tank unusable for the present, but it got pulled out, repaired, and put back into service.

Given that, a King Tiger could position itself at the rear of the Abrams and fire off all of its ammo and the Abrams wouldn't be damaged.

My take is that even if the Tiger gets the first shot it might not be much use.

The problem is knocking out the Abrams. Modern tanks have good damage control and fire extinguishers, so even if the Tiger can get one "up the tailpipe" the chance is that it will not disable it, or take it out of the fight.

So unless you hit the main gun and knock it out, the Abrams is just going to get very ed and shoot back, in which case the Tiger will be scrap metal.

Objectively?

Fire control? Abrams BIG advantage
Turret speed? Abrams
Armor? Abrams
Ammo/gun penetration ability? Abrams
Crew survivability/damage control? Abrams
Mobility? Abrams
Cool cammo? Tiger II if in Ambush pattern ;)

Come on. I've hit moving targets at over 3,000 meters at night while my tank (early M1A2) was moving with a HEAT round, first round fired.

Even if the tigger gets a back shot, the best case it could hope for would be an engine kill. Even then the crew of the Abrams will survive, and likely get to shoot back. That shot will end the tigger's day.

Best point of the Abrams is field repair, you'd be amazed how fast an engine packed is replaced!

Tiger II field repair… Err… No

Are Abrams really that hard to kill with weapons equivalent to what they carry?

If in some future war both sides have tanks of the capabilities of the Abrams, do we have a replay of that phase in Victorian ironclad development where it is time to put rams on the things and train tankers to charge?

Or do some variation of fascam immobilize tanks, and the tanks go look for non-tanks to beat up on?

Negative waves all these negative waves . The tiger is a mother beautiful tank .

Are we talking about an Abrams from early 80's or a more modern version? There has been quite some changes to the armour during the years.

What would happen if the Tiger would hit the Abrams turret rear with its main gun?

"What would happen if the Tiger would hit the Abrams turret rear with its main gun?"

The tigger would probably bend its gun tube.

Just kidding.

If you mean a round from the main gun, if it penetrated the ammo might blow out the top blow off panels, limiting the crew to the one in the tube plus the hull stored ammo (very hard to get to, takes a few minutes).

Negative waves all these negative waves . The tiger is a mother beautiful tank .

It's a piece of junk! The fuel system leaks all over the place! It's a piece of JUNK! :)

An M1A2 Abrams is extraordinarily tough, especially from the front.

Probably the best protected tank in the world, and probably as or more mobile than any other in service.

Just a superb tank.

Machines from different time periods – and did you notice that the Germans lost WW2?

However, an early M1 no suffix with the 105mm…

Still a lot of the same problems. Vulnerable to an 85mm or 88mm gun from the rear, but not enough to cause a catastrophic kill.

Even an M48 versus the big cat is not a decent contest.

The Abrams would engage at night and moving. The first thing the Tiger would know is when the round knocks on the front door. If the Abrams missed, the Tiger still wouldn't know where the second round was coming from.

Tiger no, Hellcat yes.

Different spin then – last MBT in service with one of the major powers that a Tiger II might have had a reasonable chance against?

Regards

Bows and arrows against lightning springs to mind….

I would not want to be in the Abrams while all those Tiger IIs were firing at me. All that banging would interfere with my Ipod.

I think the Tiger II might still be able to deal with a T-54/55.

link

According to the above website, the 88mm L/71 could penetrate 217mm of armor at 30DEG at 500m. I want to say that the T-54/55 series had 203mm (or thereabouts) armor frontally. That being said, the 100mm firing APDS rounds can definitely outrange the Tiger by quite a bit, and still penetrate the armor. But the Soviets have the advantage of technologically better ammo. If we "cripple" the T-54/55 and give it just AP ammo, things will be a bit more equal. However, I'd still put my money on a T-54/55, since the 100mm firing AP ammo still has better performance than the 88mm going in the opposite direction.

This of course assumes the Tiger II doesn't break down at the first opportunity…

Damon.

My guess is the last U.S. MBT Army tank that a Tiger would have a decent chance against would be the M-48.

Hmmm. How many M1s (all mods) destroyed in combat? 10?

link

For a Soviet view. Poor welds, poor drive train, poor tracks, poor mechanics.

When the first VIb battalion went into action, 2/3rd of the unit broke down in the 15 miles from the railhead to the deployment zone.

A real wunderwaffen.

what about a Jagdtiger with the 128mm gun?

Of course as wargamers the question has to be asked. How many tigers are you going to get for your points compared to one Abrams? 50? 100?

Plus you know how old those poor German tankers would be?

Why waste the tankers time. I'd rather watch Apaches tear up a Panzer Company.

Tiger II waits for the fuel bowers, kills it, waits for the Abrams to run out of fuel. When Abrams burns last drops, Tiger crew members disembark, creep up to abrams, and destroy it with flame bottles down the hatch as it sits waiting for the next fuel bowser to come over the hill.

Tiger II crew creeps up to Abrams in the night. Panzer guys fling a diseased carcass onto the Abrams and slip away. Abrams crew gets plague and dies.

Plus you know how old those poor German tankers would be?

Didn't John Ringo do that joke in one of the Posleen War stand-alone novels? Watch on the Rhine or something? Old German WW2 vets reinvigorated with Galactic-tech agathics so they could serve against the alien invaders? Never read it but I recall wondering where all the old Allied tank aces were if they were recruiting ex-Nazis – eaten by Posleen, I guess? Or did the German government have a stock of their old soldiers on ice in that Antarctic base of theirs? :)

Re tabletopwarrior,

brings to mind a story I heard about a sentry at a US base in Germany.

One dark winters night in the 90s a sentry hears an AFV coming towards the camp, and out of the mist appears a tank with a balkankreuz, putting the wind up the sentry who thinks its some sort of Nazi ghost tank.

An old feller climbs out and relates his story that he and his mates had hidden the tank in a shed since 1945, keeping it maintained and turning the engine over when military maneuvers were on nearby, so that the noise wouldn't be remarked. They had it all ready for the day Ivan came West again. The chap was the last of his friends to survive, and the Wall had come down so he'd decided to surrender the tank.

IIRC it was a Panzer IV not a Tiger though.

Was the sentry drunk at the time?

If you had said it was the '70s, I would have asked if the sentry was high on LSD at the time…

Damon.

Didn't John Ringo do that joke in one of the Posleen War stand-alone novels? Watch on the Rhine or something?

Yes, but those were SS veterans, not Heer troops. Everyone else had already *been* recalled to active duty, and they still needed more troops. So they recalled the SS, and made arrangements that there wouldn't be any SS (or those trained by the SS) left after the campaign.

Jagdtiger gun? From wikipedia,

In the anti-tank role it fired an armor-piercing capped projectile, capable of penetrating just over 200 millimetres (7.9 in) of armor at 1000 meters, and 148 millimetres (5.8 in) at 2,000 metres (2,200 yd) range. Although its short-range performance was similar to the 88 mm gun, the 128 maintained its performance over longer ranges.

Still not enough gun to do more than give the Abrams crew a headache while they waited for the first HEAT round to arrive at their target.

The 128mm fired an APCR round that at close range was near the penetration of a 105mm APDS round. The M1 has a sweet little shot trap below the main gun between the hull and turret.

What about hitting tracks and wheels on an Abrams??

That would absolutely stop it.

Within range and line-of sight of your Tiger.

And it has a giant unstoppable gun (LOL)

What if the Tiger II manages to hit the Abrams straight down the gun tube? One in a billion shot I know.

It's not only possible, but likely, that the Tiger 2 would kill the Abrams.

The Abrams crew says, "What's that bizarre vehicle two kilometers ahead, at 11 o'clock?" and since nobody can answer, they get closer to see.

The Abrams commander says, "Are you kidding me? Is that an old World War Two tank? What the hell is it doing out here in the middle of the [insert prefix and add "Stan"] desert?" and gets even closer.

"Just look at that ancient thing!" Say the other members of the Abrams crew, as they get within a few yards. "Magnificent!" says the gunner. "It's in perfect condition, like from a museum." And they halt and all get out of the tank to admire it.

"Wait a second," says the loader, "Is this thing running? Holy , the turret is traversing… somebody's in there!"

"Hey!" says the Abrams driver, who by this time has climbed up on the deck of the Tiger and is banging on a hatch. "Hey, whoever's in there, come out right now!"

"Get outta here!!" says the Abrams commander as the TIger puts an 88mm round right through the side armor at a range of 15 yards.

brings to mind a story I heard about a sentry at a US base in Germany.

One dark winters night in the 90s a sentry hears an AFV coming towards the camp, and out of the mist appears a tank with a balkankreuz, putting the wind up the sentry who thinks its some sort of Nazi ghost tank.

An old feller climbs out and relates his story that he and his mates had hidden the tank in a shed since 1945, keeping it maintained and turning the engine over when military maneuvers were on nearby, so that the noise wouldn't be remarked. They had it all ready for the day Ivan came West again. The chap was the last of his friends to survive, and the Wall had come down so he'd decided to surrender the tank.

IIRC it was a Panzer IV not a Tiger though.

I really hope this story is true. :)

-Will

How many Tigers can you buy for the cost of an Abrams?

And how long will either go before needing to refuel? And can either of them run off petrol station petrol or will they need just the right type of avgas?

My money is on the Abrams, anyway.

My money is on the Tiger because the crew wears cool black and silver uniforms with death's heads on them. And – since this is a hypothetical – my Tiger is commanded by panzer ace Michael Wittman.

Of course, having focused everyone's attention on Tiger meets Abrams, your infantry can go do what they please.

Thats right. They will win 'cause they have skullz…

John

<<brings to mind a story I heard about a sentry at a US base in Germany.

One dark winters night in the 90s a sentry hears an AFV coming towards the camp, and out of the mist appears a tank with a balkankreuz, putting the wind up the sentry who thinks its some sort of Nazi ghost tank.

An old feller climbs out and relates his story that he and his mates had hidden the tank in a shed since 1945, keeping it maintained and turning the engine over when military maneuvers were on nearby, so that the noise wouldn't be remarked. They had it all ready for the day Ivan came West again. The chap was the last of his friends to survive, and the Wall had come down so he'd decided to surrender the tank.>>

Tis true according to a friend who was stationed at the post and told the story to me.

Reminds me of another friend who was detailed to be a laision at a German WWII reunion at his post. At one point he had to drive some of the vets up into the nearby mountains where they went to a large padlocked door. They were going inside to "check the equipment". He was invited to come along, but he got scared and decided that a Sgt Shultz attitude might kept him out of imagined trouble. He regretted not going inside with the old vets.

Aegis – you sure about that being an M1? Saw a similar? anecdote some time ago about Centurion tanks in Korea. From the Digger History site (not the first place I saw this) -

In operations around the Imjin River in Korea, two Centurions had to be hastily abandoned and to prevent them from falling into enemy hands it became necessary to destroy them. Despite being pounded by armour-piercing shot from a range of 50 m. neither tank caught fire and both were subsequently recovered and repaired.

link

So, insofar as the T54/55 there was an analysis of armor in the 1973 Arab/Israeli War (by Conflict magazine). In it it was noted that, due I think to hull ammo stowage, a non-penetrating hit to the glacis often caused fires. Would give a Tiger II another chance at a long range kill.

I was kinda curious as to whether a weapon with the startling AP performance of the 88mm L/71 would be obsolete by now or not. It seems that it isn't completely useless. Clearly the modern vehicle would have the edge in terms of optics and fire control (i.e. it has some).

"The Abrams crew says, "What's that bizarre vehicle two kilometers ahead, at 11 o'clock?" and since nobody can answer, they get closer to see."

I can tell you never spent time with real tankers. A tanker will shoot at ANYTHING he is either explicitly allowed to or just thinks he can get away with. A tigger at 2k would be a fireball, and probably hit with a SABOT first, and when that did not give a 'cool' effect hit again with HEAT or MPAT to see a bigger explosion. Then probably sprayed with MG fire for GP.

Wonder how an Abrams would do vs the upgraded tanks of the era still in operation, such as the Centurion?