"1792 Austrian Jäger buglers/ hornists?" Topic

One has to be a bit carefull with Dolleczek, a photo of an original in Gabriel shows a M 1769 Stutzen with an iron ramrod at the stock – the only one which did not have a ramrod at the stock – was evidently the Doppelstutzen (with the possible exception of those made by Spöck – for that see Gabriel page 222 / 223.

One part of the ramrod was so constructed that it could be used as a Setzer – or starter in English.

Der nicht in der Waffe versorgte stählerne Ladestock hat einen gedrechselten Kopf aus Holz zum Ansetzen der Kugel und als Handhabe und einen Setzer mit Innengewinde zum Einschrauben eines Krätzers, Wischers oder Kugelziehers.
Gabrie p. 220 about the ramrod of the Doppelstutzen

The barrel of the Stutzen was usually "blued" – while the lock and the ramrod stayed bright metal.

For the M 1795 and later – I would opt for no Ladehammer, due to the special construction of the ramrod – but that still leaves the question open for the earlier ones – where this wooden head couldn't be attached permanently.

You would certainly need a construct to hammer the patched ball into the barrel, at least I have to do this with my re construtcted civilian Jäger rifle, I need a hammer and a starter, there the ramrod is of wood, to load a patched ball.

Any ideas for the early Stutzen on that?

In case you don't have the book by Gabriel – it was one of my better buys.

About the Klobuk, I certaily would agree with the earlier ones on that – but could it be that it changed due to fashion as other headgears as well?
I don't have unfortunatly Kuhnel's 1778 illustrations, only some of about 1767 – which show a Kasket.

As to the Klobuk worn only by Grenzscharfschützen – I may be wrong, there Seele shows also a usual Grenzer with a Klobuk as well.

Still some Grenzer oder usual Infantry with back to front Kaskets would be quite an original idea.

You might find that interesting form the Abrichtungsreglement of the Jäger – alas Napoleonic – that the powder flask and the powder measurment is described, so a sort of powder container was in use.

I know Gabriel, but don't have a copy myself. Anyway, the ramrod would be on the Stutzen, but I presume this Setzer is a bigger, flat end to the ramrod? That way, when you first extract it, you can push the ball in a bit with the bottom end as it emerges from the barrel ring and then turn the ramrod round and get greater effect by pushing with the more solid, wider top end? These weapons are about 1.1m long, so with the ramrod out, maybe 1.8m or the height of a tall man. You would have to push it in some way before using a hammer, even ramming at an angle.

On the powder horn, this is an illustration from 1809 of Vienna Freiwillige etc. (not 1805) and shows the horn clearly.

link

(Courtesy of Steven Smith)

The Seele painting of Balkan irregulars is in MAA2099 and shows the seated Gyulai (Croat) FK in a Csackelhaube, but the Wurmser Freikorps wear a Bosnian Klobuk. I suspect the truth for the Grenzers was somewhere in between – the Siebenburgen units seem to prefer the Csackelhaube, but the western units do seem to be in a Klobuk rather more like a Hussar shako – ie: just a straight tube with a lid on it and not leaning inwards like a Fez.

The kaskett with the flap is shown in several pics, but would only be used on the march, guard duty etc.

The Setzer is no flat end of the ramrod, but the end of it is a bit concave so it fits "over" the ball better.

I did sent you an extract of the Abrichtungsreglement of the Schützen (Napoleonic) – which describes the loading action nicely.

You got the loading sequence completly wrong, you won't hammer down the ramrod, you would start with the hammer – one places the patched ball onto the muzzle of the rifle or Stutzen – it won't fit in, due being patched, then you would need a hammer to hammer it gently in, next step, the patched ball, sitting snugly and square in the muzzle, you then need a starter to push it down a bit further – let's say 3 to 4 inches, then you would push with the ramrod the patched ball down.
All should be done gently – not to deform the patched ball.
Let me know if you got the part of the Abrichtungsreglement.

As for the powder horn, being a sceptic – it might be ok for a Freiwilligen – or Tyrolean – but was it like this for a regular Jäger (i.e. delivered item) – one should see it on illustrations of the Jäger – even in later Napoleonic period.

finally I found a photo of a painting by Kobell about the Austrians 1805 including the rear view of a Jäger – showing the cords.

these are purely decorational and are fixed from the shoulder down to a button on the rear, I will provide a photo in due course.

Otherwise Tranquilo Mollo might show Jäger in his 1811 series??? – which I don't have in full.

As for the powder horn, the Jäger re-enactment unit of Vienna – who take it quite seriously are showing also one and also very nicely the ramrod with the wooden top (looking indeed like a hammer)

research has to continue

annoying – no powder horn

picture

I think Kobell produced that picture from the Mollo drawings.

I don't think so – Kobell did a lot of original research – he did a similar painting about the Bavrian army, anyway just for fun

Austrians in Germany 1800

picture

If you look at the figures, they are all copies of Mollo – indeed that jaeger is a copy, but coloured incorrectly. he did not go to a camp and paint it.

Your other pic is interesting – the two at the front appear to be Wurmser Freikorps.

the catalogue of Kobell's works says:

Lustlager der österreichischen Infanterie bei Simmering, Neugebäude und Kaiserebersdorf 1805, Wien Albertina, Graph. Sig., Inv.Nr. 14758

For me it is not a copy of Mollo, for example Kobell got the headress right and he doesn't show the exerimental helmet.

Gentlemen

Can I ask you both if you have any comments on this picture of a Tyrolean Jäger c.1792? (After Albert Grégorius, Musée de l'Armée. Bruxelles)

picture

There are a few problems (belt worn under the coat and an ordinary sword rather than the Hirschfänger) but I'm particularly interested in the appearance of the cord tassels, – in this case located on the RIGHT shoulder(?)

otherwise a nice impression of the round hat being worn (brim turned up at the rear in this example).

Cheers

John Chadderton
Eureka Miniatures

Moreover he is wearing English boots – unlikley for rank and file and not that common for the Austrians at all.

I think that on the right – should be epaulettes and not cords and tassels.

I would not sculpt a figure from that source.
Looking at other Austrians from that source – he shows also the waistbelt under the coat for the infantryman – missing a belt buckle, – also observe the front of his kaskett – all brass, too slim cartridge pouch belt, the detials not that convincing.

Gregorius seems to have been a portrait painter, based in Bruges, so this is probably quite a Schematic pic, similar to Mollo and the Artaria, in that they are only impressionistic. There ios no real intention to convey detail.

On his right shoulder is the single epaulette of a 1769 style tunic, but it is worn open like the 1795 Schematis drawing of the German Jaeger and of course, he has a simple Corsehut with the cord band at the bottom of the crown. If the jacket were worn open as this one (?Le Loup jaeger or German Jaeger), then it would be right to wear the waistbelt buckled across the waistcoat.

Assuming this is Belgian revolt or early Rev wars, then these uniforms are less regualted anyway, so English boots would not really be a surprise – the Le Loup and German Jaeger were individual volunteers, whereas the Tyroleans were volunteers from the standing local militia, whose kit would have been close to the regualr army. Thus the first ones would be wearing an assortment of kit anyway and it seems with the tunics open.

According to my source Albert Grégorius drew the picture (labelled "Chasseur tyroliens, 1793") and around 60 other water colours FROM LIFE of French and Imperial / Allied troops who passed through or were stationed in Bruges during the 1792 – 1793 campaigns.

I accept what you are both saying about some of the details – and no, we do not intend to base our sculpting on this one picture, but to play devil's advocate for a moment I would point out that Grégorius was good enough an observer to at least get some of the important details correct (such as the distinctly blue shade of the ‘Pike Grey' uniform during this early period). So perhaps the "impressionistic" label is a bit harsh? An artist misinterpreting the exact way a belt is worn is easy enough or exaggerating the size of the plate on the front of the Kaskett (as in his other drawing of Austrian infantry mentioned by vW), but it seems to me that the location of a distinctive detail peculiar to this troop type (the cord and tassels) – which he took the time and trouble to draw – would have been harder for him to get wrong.

I am not sure I quite understand Dave's comment about this figure having the single epaulette on the right shoulder of a 1769 style tunic. Surely the 1769 infantry jacket had no epaulette on the right shoulder (only the strap on the left that retained the cartridge belt?) Mind you, having said that, if Grégorius was correct in showing the tassels on the right shoulder it does raise the tricky question as to what the tassels were attached to if there was no right epaulette. So maybe this is further evidence that Grégorius put them on the wrong shoulder?

As I said – playing devil's advocate here really. You have convinced me that the tassels should be hung from the left shoulder strap (as they were after 1798), but I just thought this picture was interesting and wanted to know what you both thought. After all, it is the ONLY picture I've seen so far, with a reasonably reliable provenance, which confirms a Jäger rifleman wearing the tassels and cords in 1792-93. Just a shame they are on the right shoulder! (Perhaps for the Austrian Jäger, being part of the Freikorps at this time and therefore only partially regulated until 1798, they chose to wear the cords and tassels attached to whichever shoulder took their fancy?)

And Grégorius' watercolour also backs up Dave when he says some Jäger wore the Tyrolean style round hat – as opposed to the regulation Kaskett hat.

Once again Dave and vW – many thanks.

John Chadderton
Eureka Miniatures

As to round hat versus kasket – the question would be – what Jäger – as Dave stated before some different Jäger units exist at the same time.

Grégorius seemed to be strongly influenced by the French army, depicting details, like for the Prussian, a musket with rings or a typical French cuff, instead of a Prussian one, this source as all others need interpretation.

Sorry – I should have checked which strap it was! Hpowever, looking closely at it, it is the tassles, not an epaulette. I think that it is down to one of a few things – either the man is not carrying pack (as it is not shown) and so has slung his cord the opposite way round or an artistic error or just that some may have preferred to keep it on the right shoulder so the cords are looser, leaving the left shoulder style for parades (beinga s you suggest non-regulated).

There is a tendency to classify irregulars by well-known units, so he may be a German jaeger rather than actually Tyrolean, but we would have to look at the OBs to be sure. Don't forget the 1795 Schematis clearly shows the German Jaeger with the tassles on the left shoulder and likewise for the regulated 1798 Jaeger.

can you be so kind to show us a Jäger of the 1795 Schema?

I don't have it.

For me it is next to impossible to determine if that piece is an epaulette or something else – far from clear.

A lot of details are wrong, look a the immense amount of small buttones at the front of the coat and no waist – coat buckle.

It is in MAA299, but I don't have a copy either! Perhaps John would put it up. It is the cords as you can see from the way it narrows at the ends. I think it is impressionistic – hence the lack of a buckle and too many buttons, although Bruno did mention that the Luttich Volunteer/Archduke Charles uniform was an old Belgian rebel pattern and so, maybe this is a le loup?

I had a look at MAA 299 which suffers badly from the illustrations of Younghusband, I cannot find any Jäger of 1795 Schema . all I can see is a Jäger of Mahoney Freikorps at page 17, by the way who clearly shows the ramrod with the "Birne" and how it was attached, he is wearing a round hat – but he is not a Tiroler Jäger.
Very interestingly he is wearing his side arm with a cross belt and not a waist belt, which might be ok for campaign dress.
He is wearing heavy cavalry boots as well.

Yes that is it – German Jaeger as the Tyrolean is in the colour plates, based on the Artaria. He is wearing over-knee gaiters IIRC.

The colour plates are not good in my view – not to be used as sculpting aid showing very odd proportions of uniform and equipment.

The Tiroler Jäger is loading a Girandoni air gun in those plates – or trying to do so – no cords visible there at all.

That is because he was copied from the Artaria plate above and I was not fully aware of the pre-92 cords situation. It is the Mahoney/German jaeger, which is more helpful.

On second thoughts, if he is pumping an air gun bottle, he would not have a powder horn!

in my view the cords were purley decorative – a sort of distinction and have nothing to do with a powder horn at all.

A "Schützen"schnur – starting at the left shoulder strap and ending at the right rear waist button, some cords and tassels hanging down from that button.

A "Schützen"schnur – starting at the left shoulder strap and ending at the right rear waist button, some cords and tassels hanging down from that button.

This is pretty much what we are going to go with. Tassels at both ends – maybe with a powder horn / flask attached behind the right hip. We probably will not have them wearing packs – so as not to obscure too much of the distinctive cords!

Many thanks to you both. This has all been extremely helpful.

I hope you both have a great Christmas and a happy New Year.

John Chadderton
Eureka Miniatures

Give them packs, they are on the hip at the left, the Schützenschnur would run over the pack or around it.

6th picture in shows a later jaeger but with the greatcoat wrapped round him and filling a "shot" from his horn. The Light Infantry reenactor at the end has he tassles too on his left shoulder.

YouTube link