"Why the sudden explosion of plastic manufacturers?" Topic

I've always been hearing just how expensive it is to set up all the necessary equipment to make miniatures in plastic, and that that's why even big companies like Games Workshop wait for the demand for a specific range of models to hit "critical mass" before releasing them in plastic.

But then I see lots of relatively small start-ups that sell plastic miniatures.
I'm guessing that even the now-familiar names like Perry, Victrix and Warlord Games started out small, but still offered plastic miniatures.

Then we have companies like Wargames Factory, Plastic Soldier Company and some others that I can't recall at the moment offering plastic miniatures as their first products.

Are the owners of these companies starting out with such vast capitals that they can afford all the expensive equipment for manufacturing plastic minis?

Or has the price of these equipment gone down drastically in the last few years?

Maybe I'm missing something, but then I'm just a clueless customer…

The question is a good one.

Perry, Immortal, Mantic, Conquest and Gripping Beast all work with Renedra. Renedra are toolmaking company and plastic mouldng company. The principals used to make plastic kits for Matchbox and then ran the plastic moulding at Games Workshop. When GW started to move some plastic production to China, they left and set up on their own.

Victrix and Valiant use a different moulder in the UK.

Wargames Factory started to produce in the USA but had problems. They now do the toolmaking and moulding in China but the parts are designed in USA.

Mick

Might be the fumes. :)

Dan

I think it's a combination of lower costs for equipment, plus most of the companies outsourse the production to people like Renedra or to China.

I understand (from a conversation at a show) that there are two levels of moulding you can buy now – the cheapest one, which doesn't last forever (unlike the Airfix moulds for instance) comes in at £10k a mould which is within the reach of smaller companies, whereas a £100k investment per mould hasn't been.

Mike

Price of moulds has gone down drastically.

I have talked to some of the newer companies about this (not going to saying which ones). Some would not comment others said that they had the money to give one or two different sets a try. If it worked out, they would use the money to start the next set, if it did not… well at best they would not start a new set in the near future.

Cheers,

Burkhard

Presumably it's a similar reason why the plastic revolution in 20mm got under way about 10 years ago – lots of new companies (Strelets, Orion, Caeser, etc) sprang up seemingly from nowhere – which has to imply that the start up costs (mould making) had dropped dramatically.

Mould life may well be an issue – as Casear have already dropped several sets from their catalogue. Will the same thing happen with the new 28mm hard plastics too ?

The cheaper moulds have a limited lifespan, so you may see sets come and go. if they don't sell enough to justify another mould.

Mike

Are the owners of these companies starting out with such vast capitals that they can afford all the expensive equipment for manufacturing plastic minis?

A number of the producers have capital from other business ventures. It will be interesting to see how many are still with us in five years' time or at the conclusion of their business plans if their banks get tough.

£10k a mould

That puts things into perspective, even for smaller manufacturers. At £2.50 GBP a pop (Zvezda), you gotta sell an awful lot of units to recover that sort of outlay.

I think the major thing that has driven this was Renedra setting up. Before then there was a lack of plastics companies who had the experience with making plastic toy soldiers in the hard plastic GW style. Now we have an experienced and high quality tooling company without having to deal with other countries (most of the new plastics companies are in the UK).

the soaring price of Tin (now at $27,000 a ton and rising – 12 years ago its was $7,000 a ton ) , makes Plastics a viable option .

Tin prices for last 25 years
link

But the unit cost for low to medium runs is still far superior, due to the high initial outlays. Even at those prices, you're unlikely to see your Char 1s and Bergepanthers in plastic (although by then you may find your metal manufacturers have given up, as the 'bread and butter' sales that fund such items (your T-34s, Shermans and Tigers) have all been diverted away)…

Something to bear in mind ;-)

Becuase Japanese schoolgirls' underwear is so passe.

I was metal all the way until friend of mine got me to try 40K.

After using plastic "welder" glue, I LOVE plastic.

Super easy to customize figs, and I find they do not chip, even with rough handeling.

I say, "Send more plastics!".

Planning on getting some Warlord WWII Germans to give the historical side a whirl.

maybe technology, design, cost and tastes have all come together at the right time to create the market and supply of top quality plastic figures.

I was metal all the way until friend of mine got me to try 40K

Funny, I was all 40K til they went from metal to plastic :-)

Wonder if it would be practical to do 1:56 WWII armor in plastic….

I'm going to hazard a guess that part of this has to do with improvements in the computer-driven tooling machines used to make the molds. I can imagine that in years past a machine that could scan a master, convert that information to tooling instructions, and drive the tooling heads was an enormously expensive piece of hardware and that depreciation on that hardware was a major cost in mold production. These days you have more computing power in your phone than a $200,000 tooling machine probably had 10 years ago and scanning technology has increased by leaps and bounds as well. So perhaps tooling companies are able to get more affordable machinery to produce the molds allowing them to reduce the cost per unit and also to have more units online, which makes it more feasible to take on smaller jobs.

Just a guess

Well, Tamiya have been making 1/35 scale military models for years, so I see no reason why 1/56 scale wouldn't work.

There are radio advertisements in this area for several places offering Short run injection molding and SLS Rapid Protyping.

I think technology has finally gotten to the point where any yokel with an idea can get something made.

Tin Prices, 3d computer design, mold prices, chinese manufacturing,etc… All these contribute, but I think the real reason it expanded beyond the big dogs is that a few smaller manufactureres decided to try it and it appears that was a financial success.

Success inspires other folks to try. Seeing that Perry, Wargames Factory and Warlord made it work will, I believe, lead to many more makers entering the plastic field. ExIllis and Mantic are just the beginning…

the soaring price of Tin (now at $27,000 a ton and rising – 12 years ago its was $7,000 a ton ) , makes Plastics a viable option .

Sorry no, the cost of metal in a miniature is small compared to cost of figure, OK if you want maintain margin (lets say 67%) then you raise the cost of the figures by 3 times the price increase of the metal to you but that is the road to business failure. Better just cover the actual increase in costs (I remember 25mm figures being 5p each in the 70's and are now a pound or so, so a 2,000% increase in 40 years?).

I have just heard (in a phone conversation with a sculptor) of one small manufacturer who has put his life savings into the first box of figures he has produced. If they don't sell well then he won't be producing any more…

Mike

it was his choice

Far seeing entrepreneurs realized that "the gray of the hobby" meant that we gamers would arrive at a point where we could only carry a couple of metal models at a time up or down stairs to the gaming table. There by providing us with more gaming time.

I have just heard (in a phone conversation with a sculptor) of one small manufacturer who has put his life savings into the first box of figures he has produced. If they don't sell well then he won't be producing any more…

Sounds like "death row" at the Toy Fair – the line of stalls where everyone had pumped their life savings into "the next Monopoly". In spite of the almost 100 per cent crash and burn record, death row filled up every year…

In the next five years you will see some of the new plastics companies crash and burn. The ones that survive will be the ones who don't need to make a living from the business, because they have a comfortable enough financial cushion.

And sector51 has it right. Materials cost is a comparatively small percentage of the total cost of a figure. Against the higher cost of tin compared with plastics, you can set the vastly lower tooling costs of spin casting moulds compared with even the cheapest injection mould for plastics. Cost of living is the main influence on figure prices.

Yes, it's definitely doom and gloom here! Don't start a plastic figure company!

My advice – open a really good German restaurant in Boston instead!

Why you ask?

#1 I don't want any more competition.

#2 There aren't any great German restaurants in Boston – and I could finally get some good, local German food with all the filthy lucre from WF

(If German isn't your thing – there are also no good Scottish or British pubs – and I wouldn't mind a French restaurant specializing in Normandy cuisine!)

;-)

Tony

Tony Reidy
Wargames Factory
wargamesfactory.com

"In spite of the almost 100 per cent crash and burn record, death row filled up every year…"

I suspect you see that dynamic in all sorts of trade shows. I know we used to see the same thing at lingerie shows and the Adult Entertainment Expo; they'd try to latch on to a formula, but we wouldn't see them again in six months or a year. Saw some of it at GAMA, as well, when we'd go to that; probably some of the same game startups you see at the toy fairs.

The game companies that made notable impressions to us were the ones that figured out how to cross over: we'd see them at GAMA with one product line, and then we'd see them at the lingerie trade shows with demos of "adult" games. Not sure how much industry crossover there is for placcy wargames figures, though!

Allen

"There aren't any great German restaurants in Boston…"

Has Jacob Wirth's closed?--not that I'd claim that it's "great"!

Allen

Ah..Death Row.I remember it well. The sudden flicker of expectation on the pallid faces of the stall's inhabitants that quickly faded when they realised that you'd only stumbled in there by accident. I didn't have the heart to tell them that I'd seen the same 'innovative and original' game design the previous year from a different would-be games entrepreneur.

Plastics are 'in' now because they are new. New is not necessarily better, and it will take a while before it plastics become just part of the mix of options available to the customer.

As for return on investment, I don't have the figures to be able to make any useful comments on that. What I do know is that if I had £1OK in my hands right now I'd use it to expand my current ranges in the old fashioned way rather then produce a single box of plastic figures.

Allen – I'm not a big fan of Jacob Wirth's – it's okay but when we lived in Hoboken we had Helmer's and we've been spoiled ever since.

Baccus – I think the ship has already sailed on the "new" bit already. But like all of wargaming – there are fads and trends that start based on the latest "hot" releases.

My 2 cents.

Tony, if you're up in Maine for Huzzah in the spring, try to sneak away to Brunswick to Richard's on Maine Street. It's new enough that we haven't been, but it gets good reviews. Nothing great German-wise in Portland, unfortunately; some deli selections, but that's it.

There's also a place in Topsham, just across the bridge from Brunswick: Old Munich--although it may have changed names recently--that also gets good reports.

Allen

I'll try to check them out next time I am "Down East" (although I think I have to go a bit farther north to be "down east"

OT

#2 There aren't any great German restaurants in Boston – and I could finally get some good, local German food with all the filthy lucre from WF

I am afraid when the USA I stick with steak/burgers. I have tried non-US food in USA and it does not seem to work well – except in NY where I had some OK Japanese.

Looking forward to what Boston has to offer.

Cost of metal adds up though. Reseller markups are about 40% the final cost of a fig. So if your MSRP is $3, and the distributor only buys at 40% markdown, you sell it to the distributor for $1.80.

Now lets say your metal cost goes up a dime per figure. That is a cost you can't easily absorb, you need to make it back, so then your final MSRP would have to be $3.16 USD ( a nearly 2 dime increase! ) so that your sell cost to a distributor would be $1.9 USD so you can make back that dime.

Distributor discounts, usually in terms of percents, have the effect of magnifying any increase on your end.

Also, Reaper has shifted to lead callow for some products, their p-65 alloy is lead based. The offer several models both in lead and lead free versions. Comparing these shows cost of metal is a LARGE factor in price. Especially since that price differential is magnified by the effect of discounts required by distributors.

Lets try the crystal Golem

link

The lead version is $8.99, the pewter is $10.99.

link

Lead: $3.99 USD
Tin: $4.99 USD

Given the switch from Lead to Tin in most solders, and the fact demand for electronics will continue to rise, lead prices will remain stable, while tin will continue to climb.

Even lead long term may not be say, as demand for energy storage increases. Lead is a reliable, recyclable component of lead acid batteries.

Interesting discussion

Thanks for the tin price link Mick.

Did anyone else notice the huge drop in 2009? Were there any reductions in figure prices then?

I meant to say Alloy, not callow. Sheesh.

Did anyone else notice the huge drop in 2009? Were there any reductions in figure prices then?

No, because metal price is not the biggest factor in deciding product price. I repeat, it is cost of living.

"That puts things into perspective, even for smaller manufacturers. At £2.50 GBP GBP a pop (Zvezda), you gotta sell an awful lot of units to recover that sort of outlay."

And therein is the bottom line, namely the bottom line. Over 20 years ago I spoke with a rep from Revell back when it was still a US operation. I was eager to see more sci-fi model kits getting into production such as the Japanese were enjoying with their anime kits. I was told quite nicely, professionally, and in no uncertain terms that every model kit subject chosen for production had to sell at least one million units in the first year just to break even on the tooling costs, otherwise there was no point from any good business sense for Revell or any other company to produce a particular kit.

Because the Japanese enjoyed a wide and dedicated fanbase who would eagerly but plastic kits of their favorite anime spaceship or such, it made sense for them to produce so many sci-fi kits. America? Even with the popularity of such as Star Wars, still, not so much.

Now tooling costs have dropped, and so we consumers can enjoy the bumper crop of goodies in our chosen hobby, be they orcs, amazons, historical hoplites, WW2, and so on!

Leland R. Erickson

A million units isn't far off the mark even with today's pricing!

Again, this is the reason why I HIGHLY encourage German restaurant start-ups in Boston over new plastic figure makers!

(Obviously nothing above is serious…well, part of it is. Which part?)

;-)

I hope all the current companies prosper and expand their ranges.
The Wargames Factory Zombies have enabled me (in more way than one) to get into zombie gaming at relatively reasonable prices. I have close to 200 zeds to put on the table at a time.
I was excited about their offering of the WSS Infantry, but realized they were all marching and I abhor marching poses.

Sorry Jlundberg – the guys who are really into WSS LOVE marching poses. But with our new Mini-Sprue System we are looking at some more dynamic figures for "skirmishing" (although there wasn't much of that in the WSS!)

I love the new WSS from WF. Marching poses are great!

I can use some skirmish poses too if they are made available. I know there had to be foraging parties and transport convoys, especially in Spain.

Cost of metal adds up though. Reseller markups are about 40% the final cost of a fig. So if your MSRP is $3, and the distributor only buys at 40% markdown, you sell it to the distributor for $1.80.

However selling through distributors is so old fashioned. Now you can sell direct to the customer and get all of the retail price yourself. So all of that 40% you used to give away goes straight in your pocket.

So all of that 40% you used to give away goes straight in your pocket.

But it also means you end up with all the work of having to handle the individual orders. Which might mean needing to hire more staff.

Yes, I have commented earlier on firms earlier who seem unable to cope with the success of actually selling stuff.

But an order coming into me is fairly simple. One printer prints the label, another printer prints a picking list, the order is picked and packed. And yes I know enough people to help out when things get busy (the most busy so far was a £2,500 order packed in 2 days). My rule of thumb is a person can pick and pack £500.00 GBP in a day. So 'saving' £200.00 GBP per person employed per day (compared to selling through distributors), cost to me, £65.00 GBP a person, so £135.00 GBP of that goes in my pocket and the people I know get some beer money. And all that assumes that there is no effort at all sending stuff to another trader!

But I appreciate that other peoples views differ.