"WSS Dragoons - role" Topic

Were they still primarily mounted infantry?

Much of the British Dragoon drills were done on foot. There were many other points which inhibited their evolution toward the role charging cavalry; size of the men, size of the horse and not a great deal of knowledge of mounted drill.

This would slowly evolve through the SYW with some of the changes the Duke of Cumberland proposed around 1755.

So, in answer to your question, regarding the British cavalry, yes.

They fought mainly mounted and ocasionally dismounted. 5% or less dismounted

Depends on the nation, but for many they were seen as mounted infantry, drilled as mounted infantry, but used more as cavalry (cheap cavalry, lower rates of pay, often poorer horses etc)

And some use that would today be given to riot police – but to strike very much harder ! – as they could move fast and then dismount to deal with local people.

French King Louis XIV often used his dragoons against dissenters, against people protesting about heavy taxes, against protestant areas in southern France, etc.

The French seemed to quite habitually dismount their Dragoons, as at Blenheim, for example. They also seemed to keep Brigades of Dragoons and Horse separate. The Allies, on the other hand quite often had mixed Brigades of Horse and Dragoons which may indicate that they all fought similarly as mounted troops with the Dragoons simply being a cheaper from of Horse.
At Friedlingen the Imperialists did dismount Dragoons to support Grenadiers and it may be that the Austrians kept the dual role more than other Allied nations. I do not know of any recorded instances of English Dragoons dismounting and it would seem that Marlborough usually kept them mounted. I do remember reading an account of Dutch Dragoons dismounting at Ramilles, so it is probably reasonable to assume that they could dismount if need be.
I have duplicate dismounted figures for all my French Dragoons and will probably do up some dismounted figures for the Austrians as well.
Simon

I thought the French dragoons being dismounted en masse at Blenheim was due to horrendous loss of horses from glanders.

Similarly the dismounted Dutch dragoons at Ramilles were attacking the village of Taviers, a role they could only realistically do on foot.

Forgive me if I add this about the French Dragoons.
It is a part of a very old song in celtic Breton about the Marquis of Pontcallec, who was arrested in 1719 because he was involved in some conspiracy.
I do not think that the French Dragoons ever wore armour, but it shows what people traditionnally remember of them and of what they were doing:

« Aotrou Markiz, techet, techet !
Me wel erru an dragoned
Me wel an dragoned erru,
Sternoù lugernus, dilhad ruz !
- "Me na gredan ket em chalon,
E krogfe ennon un dragon
Ne gredan ket vez deut ar chiz,
Ma krog an dragon er Markiz"
Oa ket e gomz peurachuet,
Tre barzh ar sal o deus lammet »

I translate :
« Lord Marquis, run away, run away !
I see the Dragoons coming,
I see the Dragoons coming,
Sparkling armour, red clothes !
– "I do not believe in my heart,
That a Dragoon could arrest me.
I do not believe it is now possible,
That a Dragoon could arrest a Marquis."
He had not finished to speak,
That they entered the hall. »

In English/Union service at least, weren't dragoons used dismounted in similar circumstances to grenadiers being combined; i.e. storming parties or forlorn hope?

With mounts to hand? Schellenburg?

Bit fuzzy here, guys, my mind's been on ancients for the last financial quarter.

I think there's a fragment on Imperialist foot dragoon procedure on the Hall PDF – I'll go rooting.

Well, Austrian proc IIRC.

Nice to see a juicy WSS topic on here, BTW.

Cheers

Just in case you think I'm being lazy, when I ask a question here I often don't state what I know/have read etc so as not to influence discussion.

What I had was basically Mounted infantry ECW-late 17th Cent "but didn't become true charging cavalry until the Napoleonic wars" (more of a paraphrase than a quote), and I couldn't find any bits of evolution.

It doesn't surprise me that that change happened in fits and start at different time dependant on nation.

What started this was painting Prussian horse for Black Powder, and I noticed that I had done my first regiment as dragoon. The Hall on Prussian states that the difference as

Horse and dragoons were very similar in their clothing and equipment at this period, being mainly differentiated by
the quality of the horse material. In addition the horse did not have bayonets for their long barreled carbines as the dragoons did for their flintlocks.

(my emphasis)

So poorer horses BUT had bayonettes, and both had carbines, suggesting horse also fired (?from saddle), but dragoons were expected to be on foot at some point.

So do I allow them to dismount into a weak foot unit? I think their Hand to Hand mounted could suffer (mount quality)

Last Hussar, good quesitons.

The Dragoons were mounted on shire or cart horses, poorer in quality to the better breed ridden by the Horse regiments. Nonetheless, their primary function was for transport and as the drill manuals for Dragoons covered extensive use of the musket while dismounted in line formation.

As they dismounted to perform their primary function, I would not downgrade them but would consider doing that while remaining mounted. Still mounted Dragoons following up a charge by Horse can be effective in scattering routed troops or siezing key positions for the Horse to fall back on.

Cheers,

To fire from the saddle is one thing. To reload a musket, or even a carbine, while mounted, is very different.

I think that French Dragoons had long muskets in the late 17th C, I do not know what happened later (as I did not made much research about the mid-18th C. yet) but it is the point to consider.

How big are dragoon units? Usually horse has less men.

Swedish dragoons of the Great Northern War had muskets, but, in open battle at least, were used as shock cavalry charging with swords and pistols.

Yeah the assault on the Schellenburg

For British Dragoons definitely no. They had already evolved much of the way towards heavy cavalry in the WSS. Very little difference in horse types and sizes even at this period- 1-2 inches shorter in height only from regimental records, etc. Their mounts were also definitely cavalry types- the nag/carthorse idea was long gone in the British Dragoons by the WSS. Given that British cavalry horses tended to be a bit larger and more powerfully built than those of the French and most other armies- I would equate British Dragoons with French Horse for mounted combat. The excellently mounted Hanoverians would be the same.

British Dragoons were not employed in exactly the same way as the Horse in all respects however. Away from the battlefield, they tended to be used for petite guerre duties- patrolling, raiding, seizing outposts etc more than the horse and certainly could and did fight dismounted in such small actions.

But in any open battle (the Schellenberg was an assault on fortified lines) they ALWAYS fought mounted alongside the Horse in the main cavalry line- usually with equal distinction. Hanoverian, Hessian, Danish and Prussian Dragoons had also evolved along this path to various degrees by the WSS.

This process accelerated after the war, until by the WAS, the British Dragoons almost exclusively served as heavy battle cavalry. By this stage there being almost no difference from the Horse in size of men and horses.

The Duke of Cumberland's instructions to Dragoon Officers in 1755 quoted in a post above were actually a belated and slightly half hearted attempt to remind the Dragoon regiments that they were expected still to train to fight dismounted, but by this time their transition to heavy cavalry was total except for a few tokens of uniform and equipment.

Found the Hall bit on Austrian practice, for whatever light it sheds-

"
Dragoons in combat

The dragoon regiments fulfilled a multitude of roles for the army including:

scouting,foraging, engineering support, flank guards and mobile reserve as well as supporting the heavy cavalry and/or infantry in both mounted and dismounted roles. In camp dragoon regiments would most often be found on the extreme flanks of the army and sometimes as part of the reserve.

In their mounted role, the dragoon regiments were used in exactly the same way as the cuirassiers. Dismounted the regiment was formed into 3 divisions, in the same manner as an infantry battalion. When dismounting the dragoons were always formed up in three rows,each file of three dragoons being a ‘row'. Each row rode forward, dismounted and then the rows formed up, tying the horses together within the ranks.

The dragoons marched forward through the lanes between the horses and formed up as a battalion. The Obristwachtmeister
and the adjutant (Wachtmeister-Leutnant) remained on horse.
"

"except for a few tokens of uniform and equipment" – and pay?

True- but the military authorities had an answer for that of course- convert the Horse to Dragoons and so equalise THEIR pay downwards!