"GW black primer issues, and automotive primer" Topic

There is a tl;dr section located at the bottom of this post.

I've recently come back to the miniature wargaming hobby, and things have changed, especially when it comes to products I was happy with previously, but are now different.

Games Workshop's Citadel Chaos black spray (formerly known as Citadel Black primer) has me pondering. It goes on with a slight sheen, and isn't very porous for a primer. In fact, it looks, feels, and behaves more like a regular paint than a primer, to be honest.

After considerable research, I have found that many others believe it to be merely black paint in a spray can.

On GW's website the product's description reads: "…it acts as a primer and provides a flat base color to paint onto,"

I called their customer service on two different occasions, and they assured me in no uncertain words that their product is, in fact, a primer. The word "primer" being used to describe a pre-coat that provides improved adhesion between the bare model's surface and the paint.

From the this I can tell:

a) It is primer, as they say (albeit a poor one)

b) They're flat-out lying to me (which I doubt)

c) The product is an enamel spray, therefore more strongly adhering to plastic (what most of my figures are made of) than would regular paint, but doesn't contain true priming properties. In other words, they're half-way lying to me.

In any case, the currently marketed product is nothing like the excellent primer of old.

I would appreciate any insight on this topic, as well as any product recommendations I could use an alternative to the paint-like GW primer. Preferably one that as closely as possible mimics the old GW spray.

Lastly, are there any reasons I should avoid using an automotive primer on my 28mm figures? I've heard it acts differently than other primers, specifically with regards to detail accentuation.

tl;dl

Games Workshop's spray has changed (a number of times, I believe) and it acts more like a paint than a primer nowadays. I don't like it. Do you know have information on this topic? Any black primer suggestions? If so, please share. Also, do you have any information regarding automotive primers vs. standard primers? If so, you know what I'd like you to do with it.

7hanks

Gesso

I second the gesso. I have had issues with temp and humidity and gesso has none of those issues. I can use it indoors during the winter months without gassing myself with fumes. Check out my workbench article on painting the Parkinson dragon. There is a short how to with pictures on how to use gesso.

TMP link

Chuck

If in the USA go to Walmart and get Krylon Ultra-flat black. Make a spray booth from a cardboard box. Fix the mini to a small wood block or similar, get a glove for the hand holding the mini; then spray on light coats, as you turn the block and mini to get good coverage.

Lastly, are there any reasons I should avoid using an automotive primer on my 28mm figures? I've heard it acts differently than other primers, specifically with regards to detail accentuation.

Not if you use an acrylic primer – there is also cellose car paint and you would not want to use that on models.

No need to use GW products – which of course are bought in, margin slapped on top and GW branded – unless you like throwing money away.

Automotive primer tends to be rather thick and sometimes takes far too long to dry. Any flat or ultra flat black spray paint has worked well for me for the past 30 years.

DM

I worked for GW as a regional manager a few years back. I was there when the manufacturing division changed primer suppliers without telling the retail arm.

The uppers in retail were really angry, and kept promising that manufacturing would have to change back. I believe they said this in good faith, but as we all know, in the end GW never went back to the old supplier.

However in the meantime we were told directly by the head of the US business, Ernie Baker, to tell customers that "nothing had changed, maybe you just got a bad batch. It'll be worked out by our next shipment."

Yep, I'm saying it, we were directly instructed to lie to the customers by Ernie Baker.

True story, and not even remotely in the same league as the worst episodes involving that company and especially THAT individual.

Oberst Radl & chuck05

Thanks for the gesso recommendations. I'll do some research on it. In the meantime, can you give me some basic info on it? Such as:

a) Can I put it through an airbrush, or is this a brush-on-only kind of thing?

b) What affect does it have on details compared to traditional primers and flat coats? I'm concerned by the fact that it shrinks when it dries. It sounds like that would be drawing paint away from sharp edges i.e. details resulting in a reduced appearance of them. It's the same reason I'm concerned about using automotive primer.

I have to admit, I was kind of shocked by the look of the gesso-painted dragon in the photo from your link. It was super shiny and think. Hideous, to be frank. But then I saw the photo on the next page, and realized that the previous photo was taken when the gesso was wet. It looks pretty good. I'm interested.

pp

a). Don't know, as I've never tried. I think it would not be possible because it's so thick and is glue-based. I have watered mine down, however, for small-scale minis. Golden paints says their gesso can be airbrushed: link

b). It does shrink, and that's a good thing, snuggles down around details. Downside is that sometimes it will leave pinhole bare spots where the gesso shrunk away from the surface. That's easily fixed with a dab of gesso. It's not as though you have to go over and over and over the minis -- 1 gesso coat and maybe a touch-up is all you'll need.

Golden makes black and white gesso. Liquitex makes black, white, clear, and neutral gray gesso. Dick Blick sells both brands at a good price.

I thought "no way this will work" but it works fine and I'm using it for all my priming needs. If you're super-skittish about durability, then gesso the figures and, when dry, cover the gesso with a 60/40 mix of Future and water. That's what I did with my 15mm ACW soldiers and it worked fine.

I've used gesso on metal 28mm and 15mm, soft plastic 54mm and 1/72 scale. I just don't see the reason for using sprays now.

I ve only brushed on gesso. It goes on heavy and shrinks to fit the details. Sometimes there will be spots where the gesso shrinks too much and you'll need to go back and hit those spots.

Ive gotten quite a bit of milage out of one bottle of black gesso. Ive probably done 250+ figures and the bottle is still a third full.

Im not going back to spray primer any time soon.

Chuck

Guiscard

While it's long shot to expect you know, and an even bigger one to hope that they haven't changed their formula by now, do you have any idea who the old supplier was? (I've heard it rumored that Krylon was). Their primer was excellent. Which in turn probably meant it was expensive, and from what I know about Games Workshop, that probably didn't sit well with them.

Ogdenlulimus & Don Manser

Flat spray paints, eh? Yeah, I'd imagine the extra bite flat coats sport would help the paint adhere to the model. It would probably be okay for plastic models, but not at all for the metal. I think I'm leaning toward using an actual primer, though, which is the reason I'm looking for an alternative to the questionable GW "primer."

Stop being so paranoid! Just go buy yourself a can of Krylon Flat black primer. I'm sure you'll be happy.

Delthos

I have heard good things about Krylon's primer. I was actually planning to buy one just for a test. I'll pick one up and possibly some gesso along with it.

I'll assume you've had some experience with it. I bet you know what that means, by now. Yep, another question: I know that it usually gives a consistent, thin coat, but could you tell me how it holds up? No flaking, etc.?

Sorry if I'm being a little paranoid. It's in my reader name for a reason, you know. Nothing's to good for my mini's! I just have to make sure "Nothing's to good," doesn't shift to "Nothing's good enough," otherwise I'm never going to get anything done, let alone have fun.

I did not intentionally include rhyming in that last sentence.

Now is about time for me to drag out my "ALL HOBBY PRIMERS SUCK!" rant.
Every single brand that I have sampled, from Floquil to GW to Ral PArtha to Armoury, etc. sold as "primer" have fluctuated wildly in quality. For no apparent reason, a can would clog beyond repair with half the contents left, or start spitting out grit.

The reason goven by Guiscard is merely one. I have never heard of anyone being instructed to lie, but…

Individual hobby shops do not have the might to bully suppliers, like a Wal-Mart does.
Some may argue about Wal-Mart "quality" for ideological reasons. Whatever. But, Wal-Mart will give a refund on a defective product.
What Wal-Mart does do is supply you with a CONSISTENT product, for $3.98. Or, for $.99 USD if you want Flat Black house brand paint. It will always be the same, can to can. If anyone can tell me why and how a can of $10 USD 0r $12 USD "primer" is in any way superior to Wal-Mart paint, I am all ears.
I have never had any issues with priming a figure with "paint" versus so-called "primer".

I never knew the vendor, but I don't think that would help anyway. Most stuff made for GW is contracted as a specific blend/composition exclusive to GW.

Pretty typical practice for companies AFAIK.

I have been using Krylon exclusively since 1992, and have always gotten good results with it. Nothing else compares in my book.

The Liquitex web site describes a recommended mix for airbrushing their gesso. I tried it once and it wouldn't go through my airbrush, but I have a really low end airbrush and I'm new to airbrushing so it was most likely operator error.

John the OFM

I remember you saying something similar in a thread about primers that came up in one of my searches.

With my limited experience and knowledge, I can't really debate with you.

I do think most of the people who are looking for alternatives to expensive hobby primers like GW's are doing it for the same reason you mention. There's just something in our gut that protests paying 10-plus U.S. dollars for a product that is consistently in the 4 dollar range everywhere else we look.

I will say that there is a definite difference in how paint behaves when it is applied over a primer as opposed to a paint undercoat. Consistent, even coverage to be specific.

Guiscard

Oh well; thanks anyways.

Note: Hmm, seems I'm having trouble differentiating "to" and "too" today. Also typed "tl;dl" instead of "tl;dr" in the opening post. Darn.

impala

Nothing else compares, huh? Yep, as I said before, I have heard good things about it.

I hate to drill you for info, but this is a forum, and I made this thread to help further my knowledge of primers, and you are now a part of it, so…is there anything in particular you like about Krylon compared to other brands?

Also, you say you've been using it since 1992; how has it held up? No chipping, excessive wear, cracking, or anything like that?

donrice

Ah, donrice. You were so helpful in my other paranoia-infused thread. Operator error? Tsk tsk. I know your keeping useful information from me. Out with it!

Wal-mart flat black. Hasn't let me down yet.

w.

Has anyone ever used this?

link

If no one can tell me it isn't ideal, I may have to test it. Found it via digging through discussion threads provided through the ever-useful Google.

wehrmacht

As I've said above, flat black spray would probably suffice as a primer for plastic minis, but not metal ones. At any rate, I'm trying to move away from regular paints in general and find a good primer, as products like GW's Chaos black spray aren't giving me the kind of results I'd like.

Walmart Black Spray paint .99 You need nothing more. Light coats plzzzzzzzz……..

RustOleum

Spray blocks stains, discolorations and irregularities for a smoother, more uniform paint finish.

Smooths out irregularities, sounds just like the sort of product you want to avoid. Car spray primer, acrylic, commonly available, not a problem and brands have been recommended.

About 5 years ago(could be more) I recieved a batch of Black sprays from GW.
When I opened the box I found one of the sprays cans didnt have the GW logo, it was plain white with the word Humbrol on it:)

I have used whatever was cheapest (anywhere from .99 to 2.99) from Home Despot / Nusy Beaver for the past 1o years or so. As long as it is flat black and applied in light coats it will do what you need it to. The few times I have broken down and bought a can of GW ($15 last time I looked) it was a bit thick and shiny and the nozzle seems to clog before the can is empty no matter what you do.

Listen to John and combatpainter. I've been using the Wally world spray for going on 10 years on mot only my own mini's but for comissions as well.

I like Krylon and Red Devil flat black. I think the lower propellant force makes me feel more in control and it doesn't grain up in humidity.

I have never liked GW/Citadel, even the old formulation. I once swore by Rust-Oleum, but since they discontinued "America's Finest" I think the newer propellant is too strong. I find the Walmart $0.99 USD or automotive primer grainy when sprayed in humidity.

To specifically answer your question, about Krylon primer, it doesn't flake, chip, or rub off anymore than any other spray paint or hobby spray primer I've used.

It will rub off from high pointed spots with repeated handling, but everything else I've used has had the same problem, on metal or plastic. I've used lots of different hobby primers, spray primers, and spray paints.

If you don't touch your figs while painting them you won't have a problem. With my painting technique I handle the miniature a lot and highspots get worn off from time to time. I don't worry about it and paint over it. Once they are painted and have had a sealer coat applied I've found them to be very resilient, but even then on some figs with extreme sharp points, the paint and finish can still wear off with long term repeated handling.

Nothing with stop them from chipping at all, except maybe a 1/4" thick layer of polyurathane!

Krylon for plastics(black and white) for resin figures and Krylon primer(black/white/grat) for metal about $4 USD give or take at Walmart.

I actually use Rustoleum Painter's Touch quite a bit. It is not one of the "self settling" primers usually found only in auto parts stores. Those are nasty. Painter's Touch works just fine on minis as long as you aren't ham-fingered. Of course, nothing works well for the ham-fingered…

sector51

…I see. Missed that somehow. Thanks.

johnscot

Honestly? If that's true, then they must have discontinued their black primer, or they were making it exclusively for Games Workshop. 'Cause I can't find a black Humbrol primer. Only grey.

combatpainter, A Twiningham, & striker8

Hmm, more recommendations for flat sprays. This will come in handy for any choices concerning sprays/primers I make down the road. Thanks guys.

Delthos

Thanks for getting back to me with detailed information. Your input is helping me in the way I need it to.

religon & Michael Borawski

More props for Krylon; I think I'm leaning towards it. I'm also interested by the Krylon paint that's formulated to adhere to plastic without primer (if only I could get John Leahy in here to answer some questions about it). Thank you.

Farstar

As always, I appreciate experienced opinions. Thanks.

Re: airbrushing Liquitex gesso … I can't find it directly on their web site. It's mentioned in their downloadable reference The Acrylic Book.

p93 "when spraying it may be necessary to thin gesso with Liquitex Airbrush Medium approximately 1:1, add more Airbrush Medium as needed".

As I said I tried it and it wouldn't spray but it was the Clear Gesso which appears to have rougher tooth so presumably larger grains or something, and I am new to airbrushing and have one of those entry-level single action airbrushes, so I could easily have done something wrong.

Liquitex web site, Download The Acrylic Book free!: link

@Farstar
I think "Painter's Touch" has only been out for 18 months or so. Do you find the propellant strong? How well do you cover the figure before painting?

@paranoid
I have used the Krylon "Fusion" to good affect on plastic. On hard plastics it is smooth, no humidity effects, and does not obscure detail. I have had problems with some rubbery figures (from the Halo board game). It leaves them sticky, a chemical reaction. I stripped with Pinesol and used Red Devil on the figures.

The best spray primer I've ever used, back when I used to use them (before I switched over to using Gesso exclusively), was the Tamiya brand spray primer. Beautiful, light coat that went on evenly. I could only find it in light grey or white, but there may be other colors as well.

Painter's Touch is, I've found, fairly typical of the general use primers. It isn't overly prone to fuzzing (a common problem with Armory, for example), has good tooth (unlike the auto primers) without being heavy on the miniatures, and seems to have good propellant loading. I've utterly exhausted several cans of primer while still having some propellant left.

The Ultra version is not quite as good with the propellant proportions (I've de-pressured a couple with detectable paint remaining), but is otherwise on par.

I do minimal sweeps across multiple miniatures, often priming 20 miniatures at a time (I use a plastic 10x12 cutting board sitting on a 2 gallon nursery planting pot in the back yard), I use both sweeps and spot bursts, and I rotate the cutting board to hit all sides of the miniatures while keeping the breeze to my back. The elevation of the board also allows priming passes right at or below the minis, instead of always spraying down at them.

I do an absolute minimum cleaning spray unless the brand I'm using is prone to clogging (Painter's Touch is not so prone).

@Farstar…

Ahhh…I've got the "Ultra." I find it coats too heavily too quickly which is consistent with you running out of pressure while the can still has paint left.

Perhaps I should look into the non-Ultra "Painter's Touch." Thanks.

That's why most of the helpful hints on priming say you should always do "passes" across your target instead of fixed shots.

Heavy coverage can also be mitigated by spraying from slightly farther away. I get good results at about a foot, but I also move fast.

donrice

Alright, fair enough. Thanks. That downloadable reference work may prove to be useful, especially since I know I will be using some of their products in the near future, even if I don't use their gesso.

religon

I was just recently looking through the Fusion for Plastic: Flat Black MSDS and saw that 39% of its weight is composed of acetone! Yikes! Acetone melts GW plastic figures like nobody's business.

Oh well.

Hyun of WeeToySoldiers

Tamiya would be my first choice, if only their primer came in black. You didn't miss it. Unfortunately, they just don't make it.

Farstar

I agree, spraying on an elevated surface is a must for an evenly distributed coat.

Also, thanks for the info on Painter's Touch. Useful stuff.

_____________________________

Has anyone tried Duplicolor's primer? There seems to be numerous users on other websites that use it, according to them, to a great effect.

link

"Great for smooth fill-in of surface cracks and imperfections…"

i.e. great for turning chain mail & other details into a convoluted mess.

How are people having good results with this?

This is probably my last item-specific inquiry:

link

It's telling me that I don't need to prime my models beforehand; that it's primer and undercoat in one.

My gut is telling me that it's just a matt spray. Not that I wouldn't like to hear that it works well as a primer.

Thanks guys.

I've used the Anti-Shine Clear, but not as a primer. The entire line makes the printed claim to be Primer, though.

The price is a bit much, though not in GW's league, and my experience with the clear says they are worth it compared to GW. Whether they are worth it compared to the less expensive stuff is up to you. The colors can provide some interesting options in painting.

GypsyComet

I agree; that line is interesting. I can't believe they don't have a gray primer/undercoat, though. That's what I could really use. It would help me paint ruins much more quickly, without having to resort to enamel sprays + primers.

Thanks for the input. Can't get enough.

That link listing the Army Painter spray paints, the header is "Colour Primers". The implication is the entire list is primer whether it says so in the description or not.

Yes, even the Anti-shine Matt Varnish.

Quite a few hobbyists insist you don't need a specialty primer, that any undercoat of sprayed matte paint will stick sufficiently to the model and provide sufficient tooth to the upper layers.

Me, I always prime. Lately with gesso.

Ive been using CarPlan White, Black and sometimes Grey primers on metal figures for 30 years. Always given good results, never had a drying problem or loss of detail when applying a light coat, never had a problem with the can/accelerator delivering the paint.

I still use it, and wouldnt use anything else.

I think "Primer" is often used as shorthand for "primary coat of paint". there is nothign special about the paint itself – other than a matt finish – and the primer coat is used just as a common key for all the rest of the colours to go on to, and to add depth to sometimes thin colour pigments on some paint shades – which would otherwise show metal through them.

There seems to eb a lot of overpriced modelling paint products around at the moment. Someone quoted me £14.00 GBP for a can of spray at a convention recently. And that was £4.00 GBP off as a show price. Outrageous.

Car primer and good quality artists oil or artists acrylic paints have served me well for years.

@paranoid
> I was just recently looking through the Fusion
> for Plastic: Flat Black MSDS and saw that 39%
> of its weight is composed of acetone! Yikes!
> Acetone melts GW plastic figures…

I have used it on GW figures with no problems. The can I have in hand is 2421 Satin Black rather than flat black and makes no claims about acetone content on the can. It would not surprise me that the agent that "bonds" to plastic in this product may be acetone, but the proportions seem correct for gaming needs.

That link listing the Army Painter spray paints, the header is "Colour Primers". The implication is the entire list is primer whether it says so in the description or not.

We have some at the FLGS. Every can is labeled as a Primer. Even the Clear.

I wonder if it's one of those "that's just what the product is called" things? I can see it now:

Colour Primer brand clear coat (wait they have that now).
Colour Primer brand filler.
Colour Primer brand glue.
Colour Primer brand stripper.
Colour Primer brand hobby knife.
Colour Primer brand sprue cutters.
Colour Primer brand movement trays.
Colour Primer brand static grass.

etc.

religon

Hmm, strange. Products descriptions are saying that it takes 7 days to fully bond with the plastic. So yeah, it would seem that there is some sort of spray--melt--solidify thing going on there. From what you're saying, sounds like the melting that would occur due to the acetone content isn't enough to be noticed. Thanks.

1815Guy

Thanks for the input. By the way, what the heck kind of spray paint were they trying to sell? They have to have some kind of justification for that ridiculous price, even if it's a lame one.

Re: The Army Painter Matt Black Undercoat

Looks promising enough for at least a test on some of my plastic minis. $11 USD is a rather expensive test though…

Has anyone tried Duplicolor's primer? There seems to be numerous users on other websites that use it, according to them, to a great effect.

Yep, switched over to it last spring and love it! But!!! There is a bit of a learning curve to using it…. Spray from too far and it will begin to dry before it hits the figure and be a little grainy. You know when you have it right when the metal in the figure appears to have turned black rather than to have been primed. (I have not tried it on plastics yet)

It has excellent shrinkage properties and preserves the detail; I use it on 15mm. Tolerates humidity issues well, I live in the Atlanta area. Has good tooth. Even when I miss and it lays on slightly powdery (grainy) it is no less than any of the before mentioned primers. The price point in this area is $5 USD to $6; I have found it at Advance Auto Parts and O'Reilly Auto Parts.

Now, after having said all that and with winter approaching, I am seriously thinking of giving gesso a try.

Guess I am stable in all my unstable ways

If I'm spray priming from a rattle can, I use Duplicolor. Works well, has a good spray pattern, a nice fine coat with good teeth, and a good price. Only fills in detail if I sweep very very slowly I have more issues with detail filling with Krylon which seems to come out much faster and heavier.

Ron

Dwarf King

Yeah, I don't often see people complaining about Duplicolor. You use it too, eh?

There's something different in your post from most other Duplicolor-supporting posts, though. You said it has excellent shrinking properties. Standard primers are supposed to shrink, and what sets automotive primers apart from them is because they are formulated not to shrink. At least as far as I've read.

So either Sandable Duplicolor is a peculiar automotive primer, or I don't know what I'm talking about.

Anyways, thanks for the input.

vutpakdi

More support for Duplicolor. Hmm, seems the only bad thing people have to say about it is that there are a couple of don't-do-this-or-that's with it.

Thanks.