"Russian Hussars, 1806-7" Topic

I didn't have much luck with cossack distinctive colors, so I'll try something else.

The Grodno Hussars were created in 1806. But I have no definitive info on their uniforms at that time. Blue dolmans and pelisses are listed in Osprey no 189. But those colors are listed as of 1809. I don't have solid info that these were their colors in 1806.

There is reason for doubt, as Osprey lists a change in hussar colors, generally, in 1809. For example, the White Russia Hussars are listed with dark blue dolman and pelisse in 1805, those colors changing to dark blue dolman and red pelisse in 1809.

Can anybody say for certain what were the colors of the Grodno Hussars in 1806, before the general reshuffling of hussar uniform colors in 1809?

We definitely need somebody to write the definitive work on Russian uniforms for this period. It's got to be somebody who reads Russian and has access to Russian records.

If somebody can recommend good sources in English, I'd love to hear about that, as well.

Many thanks,

Bill

20 June 1806— For the newly formed Grodno Hussar Regiment there are prescribed: blue [sinii] pelisses and dolmans; sky-blue collars and cuffs; white buttons, red and white braid; blue sabertaches with a sky-blue toothed pattern and white braid and monogram (Illus. 1505) (163).

all from

link

Hear are a few sites that may help:

Cossaks
link
link

Hussars
link
link

Odd's and ends.
link
link

Thanks – nice links on the Cossacks….

Some more sites:
link

link

For those unsure of the shade "sinii" is dark blue

Probably akin to Prussian blue since "sinilaya kiclota" is prussic acid

Some great links there! Thanks all who posted them

hussarbob1746.webs.com

Well, sort of. синий is blue, and голубой is azure. It causes difficulties in English because we do not distinguish those hues, so end up translating as "blue" and "sky-blue" for example. But other languages, like Italian, make the same sort of distinction.

Staff Cap,

What about Turquoise? That's another tough one, by reputation. We see it as a distinctive for the Livonia Inspection, as well as some hussar distinctives.

Thanks to all for the great links.

von Winterfeldt – I have those colors listed for the Grodno Hussars circa 1809, when nearly all the regiments changed colors (Lord knows why). So you have those same colors listed for 1806? That would mean that the Grodno Hussars are the only regiment that did NOT change its colors in 1809.

Really?

Thanks,

Bill

turquoise colour is "biriozvii"

@Widowson

I just quoted from the excellent work from the link I did provide- author Mark Conrad – read all the text and do your own conclusions, otherwise get in touch with Mark Conrad

consulting just his translation of Viskovatov and quoting:

20 November 1807— For all Hussar regiments, the braid on pelisses and dolmans is ordered to be of one color, as it was until the change of 1803 (168).

21 November 1807— In the Grodno Hussar Regiment, the white chakchiry pants are changed to blue with white trim, following the style of the chakchiry in the Lubny Regiment (169).

12 November 1808— When wearing the undress coat, Hussar officers are to wear dark-green chakchiry or pants (170).

11 November 1809— All combatant ranks of Hussar regiments are to have shakos[kivera] of the same pattern as in use at this time in Grenadier regiments, with the plume, buttonhole loop, cockade, and button all as before, and with cords and a pompon in the same color as the braid on the dolman (Illus. 1508). Along with this change, and together with alterations in the way braid and galloon is sewn onto the pelisse, dolman, and chakchiry pants, as well as in the trim on sabertaches — the colors of uniforms, sabertaches, and saddlecloths in Hussar regiments are as follows:

In the Mariupol Regiment— blue [sinii] pelisse, dolman, and chakchiry; yellow collar and cuffs on the dolman; yellow braid, galloon, and buttons; blue sabertache and saddlecloth, with yellow trim and monograms (Illus. 1508).

In the Pavlograd Regiment— turquoise pelisse; dark-green dolman and chakchiry; turquoise collar and cuffs on the dolman; yellow braid, galloon, and buttons; dark—-reen sabertache and saddlecloth, with red trim and monograms (Illus. 1509).

In the Aleksandriya Regiment— black pelisse, dolman, and chakchiry; red collar and cuffs on the dolman; white braid, galloon, and buttons; black sabertache and saddlecloth, with red trim and monograms (Illus. 1509).

In the Sumy Regiment— grey pelisse and dolman; red chakchiry and collar and cuffs on the dolman; white braid, galloon, and buttons; red sabertache with white trim and monogram; grey saddlecloth, with red trim and monogram (Illus. 1509).

In the Akhtyrka Regiment— brown pelisse and dolman; blue chakchiry; yellow braid, galloon, and buttons; brown sabertache; blue saddlecloth; yellow trim and monograms on the sabertache and saddlecloth (Illus. 1510).

In the Yelisavetgrad Regiment— grey pelisse, dolman, and collar and cuffs on the dolman; dark-green chakchiry; yellow braid, galloon, and buttons; dark-green sabertache and saddlecloth, with yellow trim and monograms (Illus. 1510).

In the Olviopol Regiment— dark-green pelisse and dolman; red chakchiry and collar and cuffs on the dolman; white braid, galloon, and buttons (Illus. 1511); dark-green sabertache and saddlecloth, with red trim and monograms.

In the Izyum Regiment— blue pelisse; red dolman; blue chakchiry and collar and cuffs on the dolman; white braid, galloon, and buttons; red sabertache; blue saddlecloth; white trim and monograms on the sabertache and saddlecloth (Illus. 1512).

In the Belorussia Regiment— red pelisse; blue dolman and chakchiry; red collar and cuffs on the dolman; white braid, galloon, and buttons; red sabertache; blue saddlecloth; white trim and monograms on the sabertache and saddlecloth (Illus. 1512).

In the Grodno Regiment— blue pelisse, dolman, and chakchiry; sky-blue collar and cuffs on the dolman; white braid, galloon, and buttons; blue sabertache and saddlecloth, with sky-blue trim and monograms (Illus. 1513).

In the Lubny Regiment— blue pelisse, dolman, and chakchiry; yellow collar and cuffs on the dolman; white braid, galloon, and buttons; blue sabertache and saddlecloth, with white trim and monograms (Illus. 1513).

New-pattern sabers are given to all these regiments, whose scabbards remain as before, while the hilts have small arches [duzhki] (175).

so check out this site it will provide a lot of answers

Many thanks

von Winterfeldt,

I just found an article on The Napoleon Series site:

Russian Infantry Facings – Inspection Era
By Jonathan Gingerich

Introduction
This page describes the facings of the Russian infantry during the Inspection and Division eras. Most previous information in English relies on Viskovatov. Unfortunately his Inspection table is based on an unimplemented proposal. Other details have also come to light in recent Russian journals. Particular credit is due to the notes accompanying Conrad's exemplary translation of Viskovatov and to Ulyanov's work.
While color names have been carefully translated, the colors themselves are approximate and should be used with care.

Very effective criticism of Viskovatov, then praise for his translator! go figure.

Personally, I've always wondered about the tuft above the pompom on the musketeer 1806 shako. Osprey and others have it colored like the pompom below it, but Murray calls it a black horsehair tuft.

And if the original source on that turns out to be Viskovatov, is it in doubt? Personally, I've always believed Murray. The plain black tuft is more Russian in character, and you'd think someone would mention it on one of those tables that show the pompom colors.

Any thoughts? Sources?

@ Widowson

Thanks for making me aware of the article of Gingerich.

Of course Viskovatov is only one source, in my view a good one, but certainly not perfect.
I assume one must learn to read Russian to absorb Russian sources, good luck with your project.

And what is Murray's source? Why Viskovatov, of course, just like every other English or French source I've ever seen. In fact it appears he worked with notes and a partial translation of a collaborator. Actually he does a pretty good job, but is occassionaly way off. So when you have something like this: picture and Murray interprets as a horsehair tuft, the question is why? Yes maybe he saw something else that convinced him that Viskovatov was wrong, and negelected to footnote it…but probably not. That's why Conrad's precise and complete translation is so much more useful than yet another compilation.

nvr,

The picture is very convincing. But one thing about the Gingerich article is the direct claim that Viskovatov uses a wrong table for the inspection colors. That is something to consider. I should see if Murray's inspection color table matches Viskovatov or Gingerich. That would tell us something.

But not tonight.

Bill

Dear Sir
Go have a look at my two books on Cossacks and Russian Militia. These will at least answer some of your questions.

The Attaman Pulk had light blue facings. The Don cossacks invariably had red. The Guard Cossacks which should be treated as regular lancers had a well defined uniform. I could discuss the Cossacks, Tartars, Khirghiz, Russian Opolchenie etc… at great length.

(2005) Cossack Hurrah!!: Russian Irregular Cavalry, Organization and Uniforms During the Napoleonic War, Partizan Press
link

Stephen Summerfield(2007) The Brazen Cross: Russian Militia, Partizans, Volunteers and the Russo-German Legion during the Napoleonic Wars, Partizan Press UK
link

The uniform of the Grodno Hussars is shown in the colour plate in the Memoirs of Lowenstern. Alas I sold my last copy of this and have not got another from the publisher. A very interesting translation of an important memoire of a Russian Hussar Officer translated by Victoria Moessner. I provided the introduction, did the layout and provided the illustrations.

link

I hope that assists. The answer upon the uniform is to which year you are referring to.

Stephen

That's the Akhtyrka Regiment on the front cover, of course.

I don't like to rely on Osprey, but their Russian cavalry book calls for some red piping for the Don Cossacks, though the regimentals – collar, cuffs, trouser stripe – were supposedly selected by the regimental commanders.

Osprey can be unreliable, but I'd want to know where they would get that info if it were wrong.

Bill

Would you like to venture a guess, Bill?-) It is straight out of Viskovatov. OTOH I've never seen anyone with an example illustration of a non-red regiment, and I think it's well known enough that it would be noted if anyone ever came across such.

Hm, we seem to have confused the threads…

Dear Bill
The facing colour for other Cossack hosts were varied as explained in my books. Viskovatov is an excellent source of information. However, this is often the official rather than the actual position.

Cossacks were rarely in anything that could be described as uniform wear. Only the officers and the NCOs could be described as such.

Stephen

Ok, back to the hussars . . .

Looking at the illustrations which accompany Viskovatov, and not being able to read Russian, I'm struck by an oddity.

Russian hussars are portrayed in the 1803-09 period with a variety of plume types. I see what look like falling feather plumes, which I expect, but also possibly falling horsehair types, and even the grenadier-type busch plume. These appear to vary somewhat by regiment, though that's just a guess. However, I don't see a chronological aspect to the variation.

Does anyone know anything about these possible regimental variations?

There is also a supplemental article by Conrad re the non-uniformity of braid color. Some regiments apparently used red braid instead of the white or yellow specified in the regulations, as well as black fleece trim on the pelisses for enlisted men, apparently to resist the appearance of dirt. link

From 11ACR's first link:

Until 1810 the tall plume was bushy, then was replaced by a thin one. The plume was white for the troopers, red for the trumpeter, and red with its top in black and orange for trumpeter-major.

Here is another reference to the busch plume, but sources or regiments vary. Most sources show a falling plume made of feathers, others of horsehair.

There must be somebody out there who can read Russian and explain all these variations – I hope.

And Viskovatov Illustration no 1505 shows two different plumes, one busch and one falling feathers, in the same picture. Again, I can't read Russian, but it gives the impression that the two styles existed side by side.

"Upon further review . . ."

Viskovatov notes the new shako issued in 1809 (French style), but calls out the plumes and cords "as before." So there is no text to back up the busch plumes seen in some of the pictures.

Damn, I wish I could read Russian.

It seems that only the officers and NCOs had the falling feather plumes. The rank and file had the horsehair. Still doesn't account for the busch plumes.