"British Army Commanders" Topic

So who is the best British(English/Scots/Welsh/Irish) commander of an army in history? And why.. My list starts with-
Bill Slim-Turned defeat into victory against one of the most fanatic enemies we have ever over horrific terrain.

Marlborough-Took an allied army and defeated the premier power of the day…Repeatedly.
Monty-Got us ashore on D-Day and smashed the Germans in Normandy.

Cromwell-Finally defeated the King and brought the Civil Wars to an end by beating larger Scots and Irish armies--Also a ruthless but effective politician..

Wellington--Took an allied army in difficult terrain and beat larger armies time and time again..

Sorry should read British..

I'd have to go with Wellington. He never suffered a major reverse on the battlefield and was intelligent enough to steer clear of politics until well after his military career was done.

Marlborough would have been my first choice, but he (and his wife's) involvement in politics proved to be his undoing.

"Monty-Got us ashore on D-Day and smashed the Germans in Normandy"

He did what???

Monash. Jewish Australian General with colonial militia origins who taught the Brits how to beat Germans.

"Monty-Got us ashore on D-Day and smashed the Germans in Normandy"

He did what???

Pretty much right. We can argue the details but he was the Allied commander on 6th June 1944 and during the Normandy campaign.

Anyway, I'm off to get some popcorn this is going to be good :o)

Wellington and Slim on the ground, Dowding and Harris in the Air Cunningham and Horton at sea.

Fatman

Edward IV. Won every battle he fought.

Marlborough, never lost, handled a more complicated alliance than Wellington, knew how to conduct seiges.

Slim, commanded possibly the most polyglot army ever fielded and beat the Japanese in defence and attack.

Wellington, took on one of the finest Military Machines and beat it in the field time and again, only his inability to take fortress's without problems is against him..

Edward III, Black Prince, Henry V and Edward IV are all good contendors, Especially Edward IV as he won with effective the same army the enemy was using as well.

By Cromwell, you mean Fairfax of course, as Cromwell was a subordinate military commander to him in the first civil war.

Ok General, ruthless politician.

Richard I of England.

Based on results this has to be a toss-up between Marlborough, Wellington, and Slim.

If Haig had been in Wellington's boots at Waterloo, I suspect he'd have won that one. He was actually pretty effective during his own Hundred Days, but the industrial scale of the losses in WW1 makes him a hard guy to champion.

Montgomery strikes me as completely overrated. He correctly argued for a five-division rather than a three-division landing in Normandy. AIUI he won Alamein with the forces his predecessors had accumulated. Aside from those points he was a flop – repeatedly beaten by inferior forces in Normandy and the Netherlands, and desperately, desperately slow to cross the Rhine in the face of an enemy he could have just rolled over. He probably prolonged the war by 3 to 6 months.

I would tend to vote for John Churchill, Duke of Marlborough.

this thread should be closed down ASAP

The last time it came up, it goet VERY nasty.

General Sir Anthony Cecil Hogmanay Melchett VC DSO KCB

Monash. Jewish Australian General with colonial militia origins who taught the Brits how to beat Germans.

A claim that not even his best biographer has made and quite untrue. A good general but he didn't learn his tactical sense in the Melbourne University Rifles.

My vote? Napier. If brevity is the soul of wit then 'Peccavi' is the wittiest victory despatch in the history of warfare. Certainly beats 'mission accomplished' hands down and better yet, in Napier's case, it was true.

Cromwell's troops committed atrocities in Ireland – but then that seems to have been 'par for the course' in those days. I might vote for him, though, on the grounds that he was a major contributor to making England a republic, even if only for a few years.

I would agree with the nominations for Slim. One not mentioned yet is O'Connor. His campaign against the Italians in N. Africa was a masterpiece, a real lesson in how to take on and beat a numerically superior enemy. Shame he got captured though.

At sea, I would nominate the officer in charge of the campaign against the U Boats. I am ashamed to say I cannot bring his name to mind. I thought it was Ramsay but he was the chap who ran the Dunkirk evacuation.

In the air, Park; not only for his contribution to the Battle of Britain but also for his defence of Malta. That was a key element in the victory over the Axis in N. Africa.

Montgomery strikes me as completely overrated. He correctly argued for a five-division rather than a three-division landing in Normandy. AIUI he won Alamein with the forces his predecessors had accumulated. Aside from those points he was a flop – repeatedly beaten by inferior forces in Normandy and the Netherlands, and desperately, desperately slow to cross the Rhine in the face of an enemy he could have just rolled over. He probably prolonged the war by 3 to 6 months.

Wow. Just wow. I'm guessing the Second World War isn't your primary interest?

Ramsey at sea is a good choice, both for Dunkirk and D Day.

"At sea, I would nominate the officer in charge of the campaign against the U Boats. I am ashamed to say I cannot bring his name to mind."

Could it be Captain Johnnie Walker? He ran the anti-submarine operations out of Liverpool.

I vote fore Marlborough

Montgomery was way over rated, Yes he won at El Alemein with a more then 3 to 1 odds. As far as Normandy goes Omaha the toughest beach was an US assignment Cain was a disaster He couldn't get along with other British generals much less other allied generals. How about the fact that he had the gall to say he won the Battle of the Bulge when it was almost completly a US vs the Germans battle. Market Garden was a failure, had Patton gotten that fuel the war would have been over a lot sooner. He dosn't belong on the same list as Wellington and Marlborough.

1. Wellington
2. Slim
Are the only two that strike me as truly Great. rather than being good or better than good. England and Scotland prior to unification

England.
1. Marlborough
2. Edward IV
3. Cromwell (military ability alone, I dislike him actually)

Jumbo Wilson, six concurrent operations at once in the Med, Africa and Southern Europe.

Oliver Leese, still achieving victiory despite having Mark Clark as an ally.

Arthur Harris, for teaching Curtis Lemay how to run an effective bombing campaign.

Back to the first war, the best Britain had weren't even British. Byng and Monash.

Paul Hurst, on the eastern Atlantic that would have been Percy Noble and then Max Horton. On the western side the commander was a Canadian called Nellis.

If forced to pick twentieth century ones, then for WW2 I'd probably go with Wavell, massively under-rated and overlooked. He was at least an Army commander, unlike O'Connor who never commanded more than a Corps. Slim did of course did command an Army, but not so many fronts and with as many diverse threats as Wavell.

WW1 is harder as there is so much baggage associated with it. Amongst the numerous Army commanders, how about Plumer?

Lieutenant General Sir Manley Power, KCB, ComTE, don't know about his abilities but he had the best name of any general anywhere, ever.

Marlborough. He had the best hair.

Back to the first war, the best Britain had weren't even British. Byng and Monash.

Course they were British, just like that Washington chap, mind you, he was a bad'un.

Some interesting answers here! I am always amazed at what I learn on TMP.

"Monty-Got us ashore on D-Day and smashed the Germans in Normandy"

He did what???

Monash. Jewish Australian General with colonial militia origins who taught the Brits how to beat Germans.

I thought Monash had retired (and died) before the beginning of WWII, but now I learn that was busy busting German defences on D-Day!

Back to the first war, the best Britain had weren't even British. Byng and Monash.

Julian Byng was commander of the Canadian Corps before Arthur Currie – and got to be Governor-General of Canada after the war, but this is the first I hear that he wasn't British.

Enough ery from me though – and I'll throw in a shout-out to Sir Isaac Brock. Facing an American army that outnumbered his ragtag army by approximately 8 to 1 (his 'army' consisted of a small cadre of British regulars and a larger but unreliable Canadian militia and working in coordination with Indian allies (er, First Nations Peoples)), he was able to sieze the initiative, set the tone of the campaign and force his enemy to respond to him, completely offsetting their numerical advantage. As a result, the conquest of Canada was not merely "a matter of marching" and British North America was not incorporated into the United States of America.

A few others to throw into the pot:

Clive of India?

George Monck?

Monck has always seemed to me the winner of 'Guy you most want on your side during a game of Diplomacy' award, but as a General, not that wonderful.

Pat

Pat, the question was not "best general", but "best army commander" and they are not the same thing….

"Cromwell-Finally defeated the King and brought the Civil Wars to an end by beating larger Scots and Irish armies"

Remind where and when Cromwell beat these larger Irish armies? Geniune question Arch I cannot recall him doing so.

Marlborough stands out as does Wellington.

Orde Wingate.

Sir Hough Gough, anyone?

link

I have always voted for Marlborough in such questions as having the best combination of talents which made him so successful in his time – and I think it very difficult anyway to compare success over such a wide range of contexts from the Civil war to WW2.

Cornwallis. My country owes it's independence to him.

Cornwallis. My country owes it's independence to him.

Not to mention Gentleman Johnny Burgoyne.

No your country owes its independence to France. Cornwallis was a superior commander to anything that the rebellious colonies produced during that war. Or were you thinking of Horatio Gates perchance?

Without a doubt, Johnny Cope!

A lot of good ones to choose from but Marlborough and Wellington would be hard to top.

No your country owes its independence to France.

Oh, the cruelty of Truth.

Preston, Dunbar (esp Dunbar where the Scots had the higher ground and all the advantages) In Ireland there were more Royalist troops…Its just they stayed in their garrisons!!!

General Slim Burma 1941 to 1945, the furthest retreat in any armies history, aand then the furthest advance. not bad hey.

James York Scarlett.

OK, so he wasnt an Army commander, or even a General, but he still led one of the all time great cavalry charges, but that cardigan yahoo gets all the press.

Based on what he knew and when he knew it, Cirnbwallis made a very good set of decisions. Lose a fleet action to the French? Are you kiding?

On the other hand, is anyone going to defend Gentleman Johnny?

"No your country owes its independence to France."
I don't think so, Britian had already lost by the time the french showed up. I may have taken a few more months but would have ended the same.

"Cornwallis. My country owes it's independence to him."
Cornwallis did a great job in a land not familiar to him, mostly hostile inhabitants, long supply lines, and part of his army being mercinary Hessians.

That's right, blame the Hessians! Poor guys always get shafted in these threads.

As to the topic: 18th, 19th and 20th centuries the best the Brits had were Marlborough, Wellington and Slim respectively. And I'd rank them in that order as best Brit commander overall as well.

Interesting thread this, despite History being assumed to be a key part of this hobby its amazing how many folk here won't let facts and objectivity get in the way of a good, biased, stereotypical & extreme opinion.

Surprised nobody has mentioned Wolfe yet, nor Nelson for Navy command.

Overall though, I guess my vote would go to Marlborough. He wins on all counts. And had himself a nice crash pad near Oxford too.

nor Nelson for Navy command.

I think had the topic title been a little wider then Nelson, Collingwood and others would have made more frequent appearances. In fact naval command may be a more interesting and contentious subject than that of the army.

Thanks Arch I knew about the Scots battles just wondered if I had forgot an Irish one. Good to know I had not. Cromwell's foes in Ireland were not very united I don't think he was ever outnumberd in an engagement.

"That's right, blame the Hessians! Poor guys always get shafted in these threads."

It's not that the Hessians were bad, its just well a mercenary really dosn't care about what he's fighting for.

Horse and Musket Period:

Cromwell/Fairfax they work as a team
Malborough,
Wellington,
Hugh 'Paddy' Gough

Later:

Douglas Haig – not the butcher he is often portrayed
Brian Horrocks,
Hugh Dowding,
Keith Park