"Vichy" Topic

When the French government moved to Vichy did they set up offices in any distictive buildings? I am considering building a couple buildings to simulate Vichy, but can't find much on the web. The US has the White House, and Capitol building, the Soviets have the Kremlin, the UK has 10 Downing Street and other distictive buildings.

Are there any comparable Vichy buildings?

Along with that, did Vichy army fight any battles against regular forces in France? Any good uniform / equipment information for them on-line? Did they melt away when the Allies got near? Or did they surrender en mass?

Mike "Bunkermeister" Creek
bunkermeister.blogspot.com

No. Petain and Leval set up in the Hotel du Parc, the Interior Ministry moved into the Casino, the Ministry of Colonies in the Hotel de l'Angleterre. Other hotels were also appropriated for various government offices. Vichy was only meant to be a provisional capital with the goal of moving back to Paris.

Vichy did not have significant military forces in Metropolitan France, only in the Overseas Departments and the colonies.

Being a health resort, the government occupied several major hotels and spa buildings.

The French film Petain gives a good overview of the haphazard way they set up themselves.

After "Torch" in November 1942, the Germans occupied all of Vichy and disbanded the "armistice army". According to Wikipedia.

Vichy fought the British in several colonies and Syria, and the Americans in North Africa.
However, never in France.

Yes Vichy France did fight Free France in Syria and Lebanon in 41…

The fighting between free French and Vichy French was not very aggressive. The FF rarely pushed any attack, amd the vichy troops were generally loyal to Vichy. Neither side could kill Frenchmen very well.

It does raise a question. Since the legitimate government was the Vichy one, was the free French an illegal organization?

KAM

Would these figs from Artizan work ok as Vichy in North Africa, or would head swaps to Adrian helmets be necessary?

link

The description says they would work for either, but I assumed the hats would be Foreign Legion only. Not that Adrian head swaps would be hard with the heads from Anglian Miniatures…though heavy weapons would be an issue.

Anyone know what Vichy tank camo was like for North Africa?

Since the legitimate government was the Vichy one, was the free French an illegal organization?

In my opinion? Yes.
But as President Roosevelt says to Secretary Hay in The Wind and the Lion, "Why spoil the beauty of the thing with legality?"

Where would the legality of the Free French be tested? In France? In 1946? I would not wish to be the lawyer arguing against the legality of the Free French.

Great…and I thought this was going to be a good topic about wargaming the Vichy French.

Oh well.

IIRC the Funken book on WW2 Uniforms has a good section on Vichy uniforms including some rather smart efforts. Not sure which of the four volumes it was in mind.

Mike,
The Armistice army was better equipped than its predecessor, altho much smaller.
They kept all the newer equipment like the MAS36 rifles and got rid of the older WWI stuff.
Count Natokina.

Brunton: I don't have the Funken book. Would you be able to give some guidance on the uniforms? Would the Artizan minis linked above work with helmet swaps?

"It does raise a question. Since the legitimate government was the Vichy one, was the free French an illegal organization?"

Well that's lawyers for you!!!
Vichy ws in no way legitatmite..it was a puppet collaberationist regime set up under the duress of the German victory in June 1940…(If it had been set up after a plebiscite and maintaining the territorial integrity of the French state then it would have been legit)

This from the Axis History Factbook site,

Armée de l'Armistice & Armée Nouvelle

by David Lehmann

The Armistice Army (a French version of the 100,000 German Army since Versailles until 1935) introduced intense physical training and sport activity by himself in his programs according the German example without any German instructor. Vichy was a "neutral" state not an ally of Germany.

The real purpose was not only to get a better morale and general efficiency but to train in a discreet way all the remaining new, light divisions to mountain warfare in sight of the "second round" with the Italian Army that both Vichy and Rome waited at the end of the general conflict to have to fight around Nice and some Alps valleys. Many military researches and programs were also led secretly for tanks and planes.

About the high standard, in spite of the scarce and poor weapons available, of the "Armée de l'Armistice" do not forget that the French were able to use, for their new regiments, only the best of the volunteers of the army and of the new classes available, with an optimum number of officers and, above all, professional NCOs.

The post 1940 Vichy Army was divided in two. There was the 100,000 men "Armée Nouvelle" in the Unoccupied (Vichy) Zone in France proper and the larger Colonial Army, most of which was in North Africa.

The "Armée Nouvelle" was meant to be composed of volunteers, but couldn't raise sufficient, so the Germans allowed it to keep part of the 1940 conscription class with the colors. When these were demobilized (in early 1942 I think) it fell far below strength. At the time it was disbanded by the Germans on end November 1942 it only had about 70000 men. It was allowed no tanks, no anti-tank guns and no artillery above 75mm. It was also allowed only very limited mechanization and made much use of bicycles instead. Its most powerful vehicles were about 50-60 light Panhard armored cars. It had some secret armories hidden away from the Germans, but these was mostly infantry weapons. Generally the Vichy army in France was under-strength, under-equipped and of lower quality than the French army in North Africa.

By contrast, the Vichy army in North Africa was slightly larger (120,000 men), fully up to strength and was allowed heavier equipment by the Germans. This was because the Vichy French said they wanted to recapture the African colonies that had gone over to the Free French and also so that they could resist any Allied attack more effectively. As a result they were allowed heavy artillery, anti-tank guns and some tanks. The best French officers also volunteered for service in North Africa because it offered more prospect of active soldiering.

It should also be kept in mind that for the Vichy regime the primary aim of the army, as privately declared by Petain, was to gain revenge on the Germans and Italians. The Vichy Army was never a German puppet army and it only clashed with the Allies in the colonies as a result of Allied attacks against the "neutral" state. When it did so it generally acquitted itself creditably.

The value and effectiveness of the French Vichy Army was tested for example in Syria where the Australian, British and Free French forces didn't led a very brilliant campaign in 1941. Since July 1941 the British forces attacked the Vichy forces (Mers El Kébir, Dakar) by surprise, without any declaration of war. In Syria several British units were totally destroyed.

After surrendering in Syria, most of the Vichy forces instead of joining the Free French forces were sent to North Africa. In November 1942 the Vichy French forces fought against the too much "green" US Army divisions during operation Torch but in fact only few of the French units fought really, there were important political discussions which will lead to the later formation of a unified French Army. In 1943 the former Vichy colonial forces in North Africa were transformed into the bulk of the Free French forces that went on to campaign in Italy, France and Germany.

link

Iron Ivan

I am sorry to have sidetracked. I am very interested in games that are Vichy v. former allies. I will post a scenario in the next few days set in Syria just for you.

What troops would one use for 15mm senegalese tiraleurs? other French colonials? I was thinking peter pig French with fez heads on some figures?

As to neutrality the Vichy french allowed transit of Luftwaffe formations to Iraq through Syria, thus violating their neutrality. As a result Britain invades Syria with the results described by Kaos

KAM

archstanton73

Vichy was the seat of the government of the new French territory as negotiated by the elected Government of France. It was as legitimate as any country.

KAM

KAM--OK so all the puppet regimes set up and forced on occupied defeated nations were legit then??

It was a puppet as when it failed to properly resist the Allied liberation of North Africa in Nov 42 it was rapidly occupied by the Germans…Hitler was very good at being flexible when dealing with defeated enemies…It pleased him/convenient to end the war against France in June 1940 and when Petain etc sold out he was happy to accept a compromise as the Vichy rump proved harmless or even helpful (ie rounding up Jews/providing forced labour)..

When they became a threat or went over Hitler walked in and took over…Hardly an independant "Proper" country??!!

Captain: No worries. I was just afraid this would go way off into Blue Fez territory before it had a chance to come around to discussion of proper minis to use.

I am looking at 28mm myself, so am not sure about what Peter Pig would be useful. Allen might though.

I look forward to a battle report!

Vichy was the seat of the government of the new French territory as negotiated by the elected Government of France. It was as legitimate as any country.

Well, no it wasn't as it didn't dissolve the Third Republic properly and was not elected. It was, effectively, established by a coup d'etat.

When De Gaulle entered Paris in 1944 he could have set up shop in the Elysee Palace and I don't think anyone would have batted an eyelid. Instead he went back to his desk as Minister for War of the Third Republic.

Just by sitting down at a desk he swept Vichy and all its works off the statute books. No messy Truth and Reconciliation or drafting any new laws/repealing old ones or any of that stuff.

Of course, he still had to get France through the immediate post war period without things descending into civil war (closer than you might think) which he managed by creating the myth of La Resistance.

well , saddly , it was a "legitimate government" : the chamber of deputy voted the full power to petain and his regime in 1940 .

One odd thing is the role of pierre laval , who was a "front populaire" scocialist deputy at that time , and managed to convince a big part of leftists deputy to jump in along petain . At the same time the young high administrative F. miterrand was as sympatiser of the cagoule and far right french movement , and was among the vichy high administration ones .

In indochina , free-french were only reconised as legitimate over vichy by 1945 , until then they rejected all proposal from the gaulist ,thus each time some free french operative were sent overthere they failed in setting up an underground organisation .

As archstanton said , the turning point in other places was by 1942-43 , when churchill finaly convinced Roosevel to acknowledge de gaule as free french representative .

Vichy milice was still by but strictly confined to "police" actions .

Yet vichy france continued fighting along nazi side , france was the most numerous non-germanic waffen-SS providers , numbering an impressive number of enlisted men , mostly fighting on the estearn front .

On uniforms , they weared a slight modification of 1940 uniform , many of the new type being black fabric .

On weaponery , they were allowed to use MAS 38 smg on a bigger scale the before armistice , but weren't allowed much armor or softskins . so they had many horse and bycicle troops . Until the entrance of USA in war by december 1941 , they did import some weapons like tomson smg and bars , but it was on a non-official allotment over wich many high ranked officers closed an eye when not unoficialy motivating it .

I know there is a good site with pics of both fre french and vichy troops , but cannot find the link back on this computer . I'l try to get from the one it should be stored in .

On gaming matter , there are quite a number of fights that may be played . On skirmish level it's evidently the easier as it can be done for all theaters and all along the period .

for full battle , if we do not take on with the french waffen SS on the ost front , the failed landings in senegal and madagascar are good battles pitting part of free french against vichy troops .

Libanon and the border skirmish between west african and central african french colonies offer nice setting too .

The first days of the north african landing in 1942 do also provide some .

On the marcel-kébir one , the attaking fleet was english not free french . And this did help axis much , as it raised many french sailors or their related against "perfidious albion " way of treating former allies .

But the vote is disputed…. :o)

link

It was nessecary in 1945 to have a new founding myth – that Vichy was illegal, that all Frenchmen were in the resistance, and that Petain and Laval (and many others) were criminals.

Germany occupied all of France after the Torch landings as France was in violation of the Armistice (2d Compeigne) that prevented French citizens from fighting against Germany.

KAM

found it back :

link

@ captain canada : yesthey tought it was nesssecary , that much that they placed the first comunist ever in provisory government . In fact being about 50 % of population they were seen as way too near to size power in 1945 .
on the other hand many real collaborationists were given "resister myth " or a good washing up . Those that ordered the veld'hyv raffle for instance ( without any demand for it from german occupation troops not even gestapo . ).
Most of those that were "withned were high ranking officials or professional policemen , some were scientist aswell .

One unquestionable case is the one of Maurice Papon . He continued his career without trouble until the seventees , even took a serious part in algerian indepence war , was in charge of police in Constantin when riots and repression went to blood , in charge of parisian police when FLN gave the " battle of Paris" with the slaughter that followed under his management . He ended up in trial for crime against humanity in the late 90 ies , only sentenced for the part he took in jewish childrens sending to death camps , yet he was freed a few years ago , and do benefit from police protection , not far from when he was in charge .

Other exemples of colaborationists that were kept in place mostly on anti-communist basis are too numerous , only a verry few ending up in trial later on .

Not even to mention those former waffen SS , that were to be recruted after some massive desertion during indochina from the comunist members of french elite troops like comandos or paratroopers . Lter on it helped in another myth : the "nescessarily neo-nazi french elite troops " , wich somewhat perdur in france while they are a minority within their ranks .

Otherwise after Torch , vichy did a few tries at handling some military troops , like the "legions" .

back to gaming the period , while searching for the link found those that may be of interest even if in french :

link

PDF link

link

The Vichy Vs Free French thing, is a painful and complicated period of French history.

Petain`s government was the legitemate legal government of France after the capitulation and surrender of her armies to the Germans.

De Gaulle and his "Free French" we an army in exile backed by the British and only really legitimised after Churchill convinced the Americans to recognise is as such.

Churchill`s actions over the French fleet at Mers el Kebir
actually alienated the majority of French public opinion (and the French military high command in particular) against the British and very nearly caused the Vichy to join the Axis. A lilttle known fact that after the attack on Mers the British navy had killed more Frenchmen than it had yet killed Germans!!!! A propoganda gift seized upon by the germans at the time.

Other than defending French soil against invasion (by the allies) in Madagascar, Syria/Lebanon and later Morocco/Algeria the Vichy forces did not fight against the allies.

For wargaming I have a nice force for Vichy Syria/Lebanon in 20mm to fight my mates Aussies and Brits; which with a few additions can join the British and fight the Africa Korps as the 1st Free french division.

I also have an "allied" French force for Tunisia 1943 and later a 2Dble force for NW Europe.

"For wargaming I have a nice force for Vichy Syria/Lebanon in 20mm to fight my mates Aussies and Brits; which with a few additions can join the British and fight the Africa Korps as the 1st Free french division.

I also have an "allied" French force for Tunisia 1943 and later a 2Dble force for NW Europe."

Yeah Rich but you are a bit weird mate! ;-P

Fatman

Thanks, coming from you thats a compliment ;-)

It was meant as one too!

Fatman

I think in Lebanon/Syria was one of the only times that the French Foreign Legion fought against itself…That would have been interesting!!

6REI Vs 13th demi-brigade outside Damascus, I`ve always fancied that myself :-)

Sorry IronIvan I don't have the Funken book, I was trawling through my memory banks. IIRC the Milice had very dark blue/black uniform and some sloped berets that defied gravity. Many in the Funken volume seemed to be carrying Stens, obviously dropped into their laps by the SOE.

Here's a decent idea, probably as good as the Funken.

picture

There's a fascist apologist posting in this thread and it's very clear who it is.

6REI Vs 13th demi-brigade outside Damascus, I`ve always fancied that myself :-)

Yes I too found that a very interesting battle. But IIRC only a few of 6REI joined the 13th after the battle ? Many from the 6REI went back to France ?

There's a fascist apologist posting in this thread and it's very clear who it is.

Hmmm … old hatreds die hard it seems. Even if this happened about 80 years ago.

Hmmm … old hatreds die hard it seems. Even if this happened about 80 years ago.

And … even if the thread is more than 10 years old too. Someone had to go back and re-animate a long-dormant thread just to hurl an insult at an unspecified enemy.

Kind of leaves a bad taste …

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

Indeed … as we know some "habits" are hard to break …

There's a fascist apologist posting in this thread and it's very clear who it is.

I must be thick, but's actually not clear to me at all!

Me as well … so … ?