"Successor Cavalry compared to the Western European Horse." Topic

Successor Cavalry compared to the Western European Horse, weren't the horses used by the Seleucids Larger than those used by the Romans and Carthaginians?

Most of the larger horses generally came from the Ferghana valley, more or less in modern Uzbekistan.

I don't know of a comparable source for the West.

The Ferghana horses, or "horses of heaven", were stocky and barrel-chested. The Chinese, especially, imported them during the Han dynasty:

link

You may be thinking of the Nisaean horses, bred on the plains of the same name in the Zagros mountains. They were noted for their size:

link

Allen

I bow to your superior knowledge, Allen. Are you aware of any similar breeds or breeding areas in the west?

What about the Percherons, Clydesdales, etc.?

What was the source of the later western destriers?

What I am thinking is that if the horses used in southern Europe were 12 or 13 hands high. What were the Successor horses like compared? 14 hands? A little larger?

That would be about right, the Nisaean were 14-15 hands. It may not sound much but if the husbandry and diet were right this would give a fitter horse with greater endurance. It would be interesting to know if these standards were able to be maintained over the course of a campaigning season once re-mounts had been used up.

Not *my* knowledge, Anleiher!

Now when you get into modern draft horses, that's a little bit more down my alley; my grandfather owned a Percheron stud and trained Clydesdales (even back before Budweiser made them popular). Both those breeds are larger than medieval warhorses. More Wiki:

link

Allen

I would second that comment, the medieaval warhorse is comparable to a modern hunter, 16-17 hands with a fairly robust build, somewhat less so than either the Percheron, Clydesdale or other European draught horses.

Hi

This is another thread influenced by Napoloenonic thinking. Yes, in the 18th horses and size affected the drill and tactics. But the concept didn't exist in the period in question.

A better issue is horse tackle.

To digress, all horses are 'bred" at some point for size. The issue is the spine of the animal, and part of the history of cavalry is breeding a horse with a strong enough spine to carry a man around with stuff. This is pretty recent. The source of "mongol" ponies being ca 12/13 hands are only strong enough starting about 3500 years ago. People were breeding for strong spines first which sort of leads to "bigger" as well.

But by alexander, such horses are available all over. And the issue for tactics and warfare becomes a "tackle" issue. First saddle design, but includes bits and snaffles.

Destrier, perscherons and similar are very very recent and more involve the problem of the development of the Breadboard plow during the dark ages.

So, how much do you want in a simple post on TMP?

Rocky

Hmmm…

What I am thinking is that if the horses used in southern Europe were 12 or 13 hands high. What were the Successor horses like compared? 14 hands? A little larger?

In the mediteranean, was there that much variation in size from region to region? Ex Spanish horse to Gallic Horse to Roman Horse I think we all know Numidian horses were even smaller than Roman horses.

"I think we all know Numidian horses were even smaller than Roman horses."

We all do? I won't repeat myself, then. It doesn't seem to be sinking in. (Look up Berber horse…)

Indeed, I'm bowing out at this point. I have no wish to discuss horse "tackle". Tack, perhaps; but I do not have any interest in equine private parts.

Allen

This book is pricey but it does indeed address the issue you have raised in some detail. Not exactly a simple answer to your question.

link

Based on the arguments in this book, it appears that the more important issue for a warhorse was stamina not size (it is assumed the horse is sufficiently strong to carry the rider and some stuff).

mjc

Armies of the Macedonian & Punic wars has a very good section on horses & furniture on pages 172-176, comparing depictions in contemporary sculpture and literature.
The issue of tack in this era seems moot; the seat was reliant on the grip of the riders knees there being no saddle as such other than perhaps a padded cloth ( the celtic horned saddle being a notable european exception), bits at this time seem to be relatively mild snaffle affairs which would fit with a control regime based on knee pressure which in any case would have been more useful in a combat situation.

MJC,

Are there any illustrations in that book?

Mike

Illustrations?

There are eight pages of color (mostly) pictures located in the center of the book. These are mostly things like base reliefs (from Trajan's Column or the Arch of Constantine), drawings, sculpture, pottery or ornaments which depict ancient horsemen. There are 330 pages of text without any kind of illustration.

mjc

Thank MJC Sounds like a good book to have as reference.

I'd like all of you here to correct me if I am wrong. I am planning to go with 14 hands horses for the Relic Successors and keep 12 hands horses for the rest of the range.

Could any of you let me know if you find this more appropriate for the range and our time period?

Thanks,
Mike

I would say that only the Seleucid Nisaeans are worthy of being depicted as larger horses. The Median agema being called the Nisaean regiment gives particular attention to the notion that only they had them en masse and maybe commanders….
Of course the Relic Antiochus is already mounted on a huge horse…almost reaching Battlestandard in scale.
JJ

The Relic Antiochus is a character model designed at 29mm and the horse was proportionaly larger to match. The Hannibal model is on a 12 hands horse and is the first of the characters in true 28mm. Some people like larger character models and some don't. Some like dioramma quality and some prefer chunky… I can appreciate all preferences. I personaly shy away from 25mm and prefer proportions of 7 heads high rather than the golden 8 heads high. 7 heads high allows for more detail on the faces and gives the models certain details that are easier to pick out. Speaking of picking out minis, thats why I decided to make some larger character models for Ancients. May I add, I now give sizes on my website in mm either 29mm or true 28's.

Mike

I'm always complaining.
JJ

(even back before Budweiser made them popular)

The only thing Budweiser has made popular from my POV is other brands of beer. Ghastly stuff.

An obvious point to make I suppose, but even if one could detect regional variations, how long would they continue to be exhibited in the mounts fielded by any army that was not operating strictly on their home turf? After all, I suspect that by 216 BC there were more than a few Numidians at Cannae riding horses acquired in parts various on their long journey from North Africa via Spain, southern Gaul, the Alps, Cisalpine Gaul, Etruria, etc. Especially given the losses in horse flesh which Polybius emphasises in the Alpine and Arno marshes episodes.