"which war film gets you mad?" Topic

i agree with all the negative stuff about Mad Mel but I thought Apocalyto was his best film by far – Not strictly a war movie though.

Oddly enough saw a few minutes of Troy last night, no sound on. I wouldn't have a clue about uniform or weapon inaccuracies for that time, as long as everyone has something sharp, stabby and pointy I'm likely to be content.

What I did find myself moaning about was the way all the Trojans old Brad scythed through on his way into the temple used the classic cinematic attack; that is in single file, one at a time, and with that momentary pause with the shield or sword lowered so the hero can get his kill stroke with ease.

Also saw Attack on the Iron Coast a little while ago. Marvelled at the way one group ran down a street, got wiped out by hidden MG, which was then wiped out from behind by another group, who then ran down a street, got wiped out by hidden MG, which was then… you get the picture?

Oh, can we do Star Wars and Clone Army tactics, can we, can we?!

I was thinking SPR was the greatest war film ever….until they managed the unbelievable feat of getting 2 bazooka rounds into that half track in under 5 seconds, worlds fastest bazooka re-loader or what??
Worst film ever….. Merrills Marauders… if only for where the Yanks are firing away at the Japs only feet apart with people firing rifles into the back of the guy in front on their own side their aim is so appalling, no attempt to even point the weapon in the right direction.

For all those that LOVE thin red line, the blu ray version og max score link

Just so you know the costumes in Troy were pretty aweful…

I think the point that annoys me the most about historical movies is costumes. It's one thing to alter the story to make it more "cinematic" or flow better. Yet with costumes, usually the material is out there, and unless you're going to "Rent-a-Roman" you probably have to make them anyway (thinking primarily of pre-modern movies). Really, they couldn't go out an buy an Osprey (which has its own issues sometimes, but usually is a fair sight better than what Hollywood comes up with…). I think in the case of Troy, I would have been a lot more forgiving if they'd used more accurate costumes…

But I agree: the general audience doesn't care, so neither does Hollywood.

Damon.

Waterloo – what a waste – awful acting (Steiger should be taken outside and shot), and the Scots Greys charge?

Love Thin Red Line by the way.

"Though isn't We Were Soldiers absed on an eye-witness account? In which case did that charge actually happen?"

Although most of the movie portrays the book pretty exactly and is really, really good, the charge at the end was made up by the writers and almost ruined all the rest of the film for me. It's NOT in the book at all. The NVA simply left at the end, and that's apparently not enough of a climax for Hollywood producers.

What did you think was wrong with 'Wind Talkers'? Other than being disjointed.]

A fair question. First, it starred Nicolas Cage.

Point taken.

Just because a uniform or weapon or vehicle is not presented historically accurately does NOT make a movie bad, it is simply annoying to US GEEKS (me included certainly)!! In The Patriot, the super clean old fashioned British Uniforms (late war South) were annoying, but the protrayl of the Light Dragoons as semi SS thugs led by a Reinhard Heydrich clone made the movie ,for me, a travesty, and unwatchable again!

The Thin Red Line was the worst , being , to me, incomprehensible as a story, and I could not figure out who was who and what was going on at all! This kind of thing is more important than some of the bad history bufoonery (wrong colors, wrong gun, wrong tank) that can never be totally expected to be cleaned up for our tiny minority by movie makers!

Good old Mel Gibson and his fanatical hatred of the 'Old Country'; wonder why? Unfortunately rather too many of our across the pond bretheren believe Mel's revisionary version of events. But hey, I don't have to watch them and so I don't.

Gods & Generals and Thin Red Line don't get me angry, they just make me sleepy. Zzzzzz….

Now the Patriot gets me riled. What a load of tripe. A friend of mine points out it has the same plot as most every Mel Gibson film: Mel tries to be left alone, bad guy Brits kill members of his family, Mel kills all of them and then some.

Braveheart, The Patriot, We Were Soldiers (for ruining a memorable book with an invented bayonet charge!)… Oh, heck, anything with the detestable Mel Gibson in it.

Battle of the Bulge.

"Though isn't We Were Soldiers absed on an eye-witness account? In which case did that charge actually happen?"

Based on an actual account, yes. No, the charge didn't happen. The NVA just stopped attacking after a while. Not quite as dramatic.

Also, the second half of the book, in which another battalion was cut to ribbons didn't get into the movie either.

That said, I like the movie. But it's a movie.

LOL! Windtalkers, where EVERY Japanese soldier was armed with Samurai swords, nunchucks and throwing stars.

Cage killed more Japanese in the first battle scene than were lost in the entire Pacific war.

How about the mismatched stock footage in "Midway"? Didn't know we used Hellcats and Avengers in the battle*. And did the Japanese really use T-6 Texans ???

Oh, and that carrier that got hit by the kamikaze in the stock footage, pretty sure that was the Wasp, NOT the Yorktown. :O

*The Marines used 8 Avengers based on Midway, but NONE on the carriers.

I strongly suspect American audiences wouldn't find the fate of the other battalion nearly so entertianing – perhaps it should be made for the Chinese/Vietnamese market?

The Patriot is also somewhat suspect not only in portraying the British as truly evil, but in having the black guy supporting the rebels where most of them supported the British whom unlike the colonials, were becoming more strongly abolitionist.

Unusually, we actually kept our word to those slaves who helped us, founding Sierra Leone for them.

But hey, can't portray those evil tyrannical British as actually being the more enlightened side can we?

Doesn't make me mad, but it is annoying to me: Ben Hur. Mainly for continuing the myth that Roman galleys were oared by slaves and criminals. Would YOU put your navy in the hands of guys you have supposedly condemned to death, and then expect them to give there all to fight against people who more than likely will set them free to fight for them? And also expect them to be able to row in unison consistently and not just wreck the ship at the first sign of an opponent? Drives me crazy! Love the rest of the film though.

What realy scared me about the patriot is that sevral american teachers have said they show the movie in history class, now thats scary.

'Gangs of New York', whilst not a war film has the ACW as background and is a waste of space.

Doesn't make me mad, but it is annoying to me: Ben Hur. Mainly for continuing the myth that Roman galleys were oared by slaves and criminals. Would YOU put your navy in the hands of guys you have supposedly condemned to death, and then expect them to give there all to fight against people who more than likely will set them free to fight for them? And also expect them to be able to row in unison consistently and not just wreck the ship at the first sign of an opponent? Drives me crazy! Love the rest of the film though.

The use of galley slaves came from a later period, work for the Turks and the Christian states up through the 18thC.

U571 & Braveheart, what stinkers, and shame to say I have "Braveheart" in my dvd collection somewhere. Can I mention "Independence Day" as it is Sci-fi war movie?
I consider myself blessed in managing to avoid "The Patriot" and "Pearl Harbour".

Dunno why everyone is so down on Pearl Harbor. Watching Kate Beckinsale prance around in her nurse costume is worth paying the price of admission.

Twice!

She could stick her finger in my neck any day.

Lord Hill when you said "Waterloo – what a waste – awful acting (Steiger should be taken outside and shot), and the Scots Greys charge?" I was taken aback.

Waterloo was a fine film and Steiger did a fine performance as Napoleon.

To me Steiger WAS Napoleon and this movie is one of my top 10 War Films.

Captain Gideon

Lenin and McCarthy when you said "633 Squadron' – just a straight rip of of 'Star Wars, a New Hope",I'm perplexed.

So you're saying that 633 Squadron is a rip off of Star Wars,a New Hope.

But it should be the reverse since 633 squadron came out in 1964,so who's ripping off who?

Captain Gideon

"Hannibal the Conqueror" with Vin Diesel. It didn't come out yet but it makes me mad already

On the other hand, "The Conquerer" was made and released, with John Wayne as Ghengis Khan:

imdb.com/title/tt0049092

Yes, it is as bad as it sounds.

In defence of The Thin Red Line, it did feature an excellent example of how not to attack a fortified hill, and Nick Nolte's performance as a frustrated career officer was great. So it wasn't a total loss. Just mostly a loss.

There are so many duff war films but my favourtie hates has to be Braveheart, just utter tripe and then we get to The Thin Red Line, when I first heard they were making a film of that name I thought great their eventually making a film of the Crimean War only to discover that Yanks have tried to pinch that famous title, what a major load of rubbish.

Waterloo – what a waste – awful acting (Steiger should be taken outside and shot),

But instead he got to play Mussolini in "Lion of the Desert," which was exactly the same way as he did Napoleon, but with the classic Mussolini hand-on-hips, chest-out pose.

"Speilberg thought the audience was stoopid and tried to get away a with a plywood covered T-34 for a Tiger"

Well, as the Germans are attacking the Yanks in Hatfield's British Aerospace factory, I don't mind them using plywood tanks as they do it.

"thin Red Line" very disappointing. Not a single Redcoat in it.

Waterloo: a film of its time ("why are we fighting each other….." etc etc) and waltzes being played at the Duchess' ball ( a good 50 years before they were written). Yes to problems with dramatic Greys charge, but a good piece of visual imagery. It's still a great film. Huge casting ( The Red Army) with superb uniform and military musical details. And perfect casting of Rod Steiger and Christopher Plummer. Rod Steiger IS Nap in that film. On the other hand Uxbridge IS Bergerac. :o)

Unusually, we actually kept our word to those slaves who helped us, founding Sierra Leone for them.

Makes up for the slaves the Brits abandoned to die in the swamps after the the Battle of New Orleans,
and other 1812 campaigns.

:) :) :)

Regarding We Were Soldiers, my disappointment (aside from the absurd charge) stemmed from what I felt was a toning down of how intense the fighting was, and the absolute heroics of so many of the troopers. It's odd that Hollywood usually goes so far over the top with that stuff, yet in this instance they backed off, IMHO. It was a nice change for Mel, however, in that usually in his films his wife/girlfriend either starts out dead or ends up that way. Plucky Madeleine Stowe makes it out alive in this one.

And I'm glad someone mentioned Apocalypto. Great film, and one of the few things I've felt worth spending extra to get on Blu-Ray.

People knocking Kelly's heroes??? The Dirty Dozen and Kelly's Heroes are some of my favorites. The Dirty Dozen a microcosim of varius ethnic group and regions of the country who messed up trying to get a clean slate. Kelly's Heroes a group of losers wanting to get rich. You can't get more American than this. Fighting for liberty, freedom, mom, apple pie, the Constitution, and the flag yeh right.

Speilberg thought the audience was stoopid and tried to get away a with a plywood covered T-34 for a Tiger"

I'm on board of directors of the largest US WWII reenacting body. That bloody tank has caused us so much bloody trouble over the last four years. Don't get me started… Technically I look after the Commonwealth forces but it keeps crossing my desk by default.

And I'm glad someone mentioned Apocalypto. Great film

Not..IMHO

I just rewatched 'Nigh of the Generals' made in 1968. Yes there is a lot wrong with it from a military history point of view, but I'm prepared to forgive films made before say 1990 a lot.
Films after that date do not have the excuse because of CGI. Films after that date, deserve all they get.

So The Patriot is poor, but I still enjoy say Northwest Passage about Rogers Rangers

I'm not sure why any war movie would make someone mad. Just Hollywood. I did 21 years in uniform. One year in SE Asia (back in the day). It can't be replicated on film. Just chalk it up to entertainment.

See, I can forgive using the wrong kit etc because, as pbishop eloquently puts it, you can't get anything like the adrenaline rush of combat on the screen – though I'd say from my resolutely civilian perspective the first 20mins of SPr comes close.

What I dislike is rewriting history. Braveheart was used for political purposes here in the UK. U571 was seen as a slur on the Royal Navy – won't US audiences watch a film unless there's Americans in it?

As for Pearl Harbour – I enjoyed it. Leaving aside the use of modern ships, the attack was well done – for my the best moment was the rear gunner of the Japanese bomber frantically signalling the kids to take cover, a nice touch.

But lordie, was it overlong…..

Every Mel Gibson war movie is a massive wreck

And so is Mel !

Good God Almighty, Bangorstu you liked Pearl Harbour! ???

I had low expectations…. I didn't feel cheated out of £6.00 GBP like I did after Pathfidner. It wasn't however, a great movie but it had its moments.

As, to be fair, did Braveheart. If it was my own nationality being the subject of what is a borderline racist rant I'd probably have enjoyed it.

But it's not like English? British history is short of episodes we'd rather forget, without making up.

<<Every Mel Gibson war movie is a massive wreck.>>

I dunno – Chicken Run wasn't bad.

Waterloo – what a waste – awful acting (Steiger should be taken outside and shot), and the Scots Greys charge?

Gideon got in before me, and whilst it may make me a movie philistine I think that Steiger and Plumber were so outstanding in their roles that this is how I actually picture Napoleon and Wellington in my mind's eye.

You know I can almost forgivee braveheart, after all, nobody was realy that nice in the medieval period, even the nice ones would probebly have been in jail for life by modern standards, sure the battles were silly hack and slash with no reality to them, but the music, yes pompus and over done was still good.

The problem with the Patriot is that you can't do the excuse it was the medieval age, everybody was evil, The british army was quite restranint and demonising them is just going to far, medival yes everybody sucked, 18c no, sorry to recent, we know to much, the people were just to much like us to get away with it, also the battles are horrible, it's a sad state that the only two warfilms showing the AWI both are iffy.

Also – definition of depressing (well, maybe not depressing but certainly one of those big sad intakes of air when you think of something sad): Just watched Rio Bravo and realised that everybody in that film is now dead.

Hi

I await you guys doing a perfect movie!

Sheesh.

Stu, I counter your silly accusation about americans in british situation with the concept that sll Romans speak BBC english!

We were soldiers, made me cry, had friends in that one. Leaving out the second bat…and? Even the 7 hour Russian Made War and Peace left things out.

All art forms have limits And the "art" is in presenting the work in some way and selecting the parts that advance the issue. Does not draw a brick wall by drawing every brick, but drawing a wall and suggesting bricks. Movies have to do the same thing. They are limited in their media. The only way to be completely correct is to do an "Avatar" and have warfare using impossible physics and a place that doesn't exist.

You sort of have two options, no war movies, or accept that there are limits to the media.

"Patriot"….well most "blacks" aren't "all blacks" and part of that issue is some people pretending the folks of color weren't there at all for the greater narritive of "the US was founded on evil"… which is political but not quite true.

And while my adult kids grew up wargaming, they consider "The Patriot" a horror movie. Not because of some "oh don't depict brits as the bad guys in an american movie about the revolution", but the depictions of battle were SCARY. Standing there and SHOOTING. If that doesn't scare you……….

similarly, "Dracuala" movies don't scare me. "Cross of Iron" is a horror movie.

All Dracula movies get THAT story wrong, all WW2 movies get THAT story wrong. Since all movies get it wrong, lets just stay home and play with ourselves.

Sheesh!

Rocky

You know I can almost forgivee braveheart, after all, nobody was realy that nice in the medieval period, even the nice ones would probebly have been in jail for life by modern standards, sure the battles were silly hack and slash with no reality to them, but the music, yes pompus and over done was still good.

That's because you're from Norway, dude. It's a little more annoying when you are the de rigeur Gibson enemy. Being portrayed as a nation of subliminal shirtlifters who only want to drink tea, get others to do their fighting and are essentially a bunch of soft jessies can get wearing.

The Patriot does it for me--What a load of rollocks!!!..Anyway what do you expect off Mel gibson!!

While Pearl Harbor is truly awefull (I ended up cheering the Japs!!) it didn't actually make me angry…

When I first saw The Battle of the Bulge at aged 12 I thought it was great…Now I know better it is a bit crappy!!

"People whimper about BotB and the tanks – but no one yet has moaned about the Germans getting beat by Mr Fonda and his flaming Barrells of Death?"

That was actually something they got right--It did actually happen!!

I thought that happened in Spartacus?

Saving Private Ryan

No, it was definitely Spartacus.

I agree with all of you and disagree. Every bad movie cited has something useful in it. Gods and Generals has 2 very well done battle scenes. Patriot has 1 very good battle scene. It is interesting to note we had a protest against the Patriot locally, you see most folks here about were descended from loyalists in the NJ Loyalist Regiments, NA Fencibles and the Queens Rangers.

Pearl Harbor; or should I say "Battlestar Pearl Harbor"?

I suspect that we won't be seeing any more Mel Gibson movies bashing Great Britain. His acting career is certainly finished due to his off-screen exploits and tabloid coverage.